Mind Control/Mass Confusion recharge needs a buff

[Kaballah]

Have been discussing this a bit in the Controller subforum, it is just crazy that the base recharge of Mind Control's Mass Confusion is 4 minutes vs. Seeds of Confusion's base recharge of 60 seconds. The whole paradigm of the Tier 9 4 minute "BIG MOVE" has been dismantled with the reduction in cooldown of nuke powers in all sets.  The overall utility of Mind Control isn't great but reducing the recharge of Mass Confusion to parity with Seeds would be a good start. 

 

 

Electric Control's Synaptic Overload (60 second cooldown) isn't very good by comparison either.

[Super Atom]

I love this post but could we also worm in mass hypnosis into this? Elec's sleep patch that reapplies sleep just makes mind control feel double bad

[Kaballah]

A more thoughtful overhaul of the Mind Control set would be nice but I'm shooting for something small, simple and immediate.  This single change would be a tremendous help for the set, it's needed this since Live.

[Super Atom]

1 minute ago, Kaballah said:

A more thoughtful overhaul of the Mind Control set would be nice but I'm shooting for something small, simple and immediate.  This single change would be a tremendous help for the set, it's needed this since Live.

 

Fair! I agree 1000% though, i recently was toying with a mind/storm controller because i adore the theme of mind control but it just felt so weak in comparison i scrapped the character entirely and Mass Confusion was a huge part of that.

[Zepp]

A lot of Control and Buff/Debuff powers need recharge reductions...

[Vanden]

9 hours ago, Kaballah said:

I'm shooting for something small, simple and immediate.

 

Thats not how things are done on Homecoming. Balance changes always have to be done in a thoughtful way. A change like this is a good example for why; this shallow, not-thought-out change would utterly break Mind Control. Seeds of Confusion has less range than Mass Confusion, lower target cap, is trickier to aim due to being conical rather than spherical, aggroes enemies, and despite all these disadvantages is still much too powerful because of that recharge time. You give that to Mass Confusion and Mind Control characters would basically never have to fight an enemy that’s not immune to confusion ever again after level 33 or so.

[KelvinKole]

I kind of hate seeds of confusion and don’t think that should be the standard for anything. I’m sure it’s fun for the people using it, but having every group in a mission not even fight back is little too….belittling. Like why am I here.

[Marbing]

Lord yes PLEASE fix Mind Control! I LOVE the mind control concept but the way it was implemented in this game is just bad. Mass Confusion < Seeds of Confusion, Mass Hypnosis < Static Field, Telekinesis = Nearly Useless. I mean COME ON!! Please revamp Mind Control! 

 

lol sorry, but I needed to vent... Mind Control is a trigger for me...

[Marbing]

So some ideas to fix Mind Control, they probably arent great ideas but just something to consider...

 

Mass Hypnosis: 

Keep the power the same except, add a -tohit, -def, and a minor (short duration) unenhanceable slow, with a chance for an unenhanceable short duration mag 2 confuse when they are awoken from their sleep. Making this a little harder control than a simple AoE sleep. (Not for the epic version of this power, just for the Controller/Dominator version). The idea being they are awoken from a deep sleep they are going to be slower, easier to hit, have reduced accuracy and weaker minds may even be confused when they regain consciousness. Also, even if they are not slept immediately they will at least be a little groggy and thus slower/easier to hit/less accurate. I am not talking about a HUGE debuff, but something small like -5% and maybe -30% on the slow. 

 

Mass Confusion: 

Lower the recharge, add a chance for an unenhanceable mag 2 disorient. The idea being that the confusion is so potent that some weaker minds may even become disoriented for a short time. This will separate it from Seeds of confusion, especially being that this is a T9, needs some extra oomf.

 

Telekinesis:

Keep it the same, and either:
Remove the repel entirely, OR give the player the option to chose a location to repel them to at which point once they reach that spot, they STOP MOVING, this location can even be in the air, allowing the player to completely lift them up into the air. This would require adding a +fly component to the power for the duration of the toggle. Allowing the player to lift certain targets over a ledge, then detoggle the power to drop them, haha. 

 

I am realistic though and understand if these changes would be too game breaking or impossible.

 

 

Edited July 10, 2021 by th0ughtGun

[...]

2 hours ago, Vanden said:

 

Thats not how things are done on Homecoming. Balance changes always have to be done in a thoughtful way. A change like this is a good example for why; this shallow, not-thought-out change would utterly break Mind Control. Seeds of Confusion has less range than Mass Confusion, lower target cap, is trickier to aim due to being conical rather than spherical, aggroes enemies, and despite all these disadvantages is still much too powerful because of that recharge time. You give that to Mass Confusion and Mind Control characters would basically never have to fight an enemy that’s not immune to confusion ever again after level 33 or so.

 

Seeds and Mass Confusion both have a 16 target cap. 

 

Seeds range limitations can be overcome with +range (enhanced, IO, and alpha), stealth, and the contagious confusion proc. Played well, it is very easy to hit an entire spawn with Seeds. 

 

Seeds is available at level 8. 

 

Personally, as someone with not enough playtime but who feels most at home on a dominator, I'd nerf Seeds a bit (90 sec cooldown, duration to match hold effects) and buff/nerf Mass Confusion (120-145 second cooldown, duration to match hold effects). 

 

That said, this discussion needs to be held in the broader scope of

- what is the role of control

- how much damage should characters do

- how survivalable should characters be

 

I'd argue that both defensive and offensive powercreep have greatly diminished the role of control. I'm looking at 145 second nukes, tanker/brute/scrapper/stalker/blaster tank-mages, and incarnates.

 

People don't like the idea of permanently controlled mobs, but invincible tankers/brutes and spawn clearing nukes are a similar problem.... that just gets a pass. 

[ScarySai]

I fully support this idea, but it's worth noting that plant is essentially carried by two powers: seeds and carrion. Without them as they are, plant would honestly be pretty garbage.

Edited July 10, 2021 by ScarySai

[arcane]

1 hour ago, Vooded said:

Personally, as someone with not enough playtime but who feels most at home on a dominator, I'd nerf Seeds a bit (90 sec cooldown, duration to match hold effects) and buff/nerf Mass Confusion (120-145 second cooldown, duration to match hold effects). 

 

 

I’d be good with this. Plant is so powerful with Creepers alone I doubt I’d notice such a tiny nerf anyway. 

[oedipus_tex]

You can read the reasoning for my thoughts on AoE Confuses in the Dominator and Controller forums. I'll nutshell it here:

 

• Mass Confusion
  • On Doms and Controllers: Reduce recharge from 240 to 120. Or use 125 if you want to explicitly connect it up with Blaster nukes.
• Synaptic Overload
  • On Dominators: Fixed to include Domination on the chain pseudo pets. In Domination mode these pets should be delivering an additional Mag 3 Scale 22.5 Confuse. The Controller version Overpowers already, the Dom version should Dominate. 
  • On Controllers: Pseudo pets should be using archetype tables, not pet tables. (This fix wasn't possible until Homecoming found a way to make this work. Not needed on Dominators because Dom Confuse scale is the same as pets.)
• Arctic Air
  • On Dominators: Should Dominate. 30% Chance for Scale 4 Confusion. 
  • On Controllers: Will leave up to with whether this should Overpower. World of Confusion does though.
  • On both: Seriously consider whether this power needs to detoggle when caster is mezzed. If it really needs to do that, lower Recharge from 15 to 3 or so so that players without mezz protection don't get chain-locked out of it.
• Seeds of Confusion
  • If this were a beta test power on the test server, I'd say the Confusion Scale needs to be lowered from Scale 20 to Scale 12. However, I can't see you touching this without a Player's Civil Rights movement forming. Might get away with lowering to Scale 15, which is Synaptic's scale, but this is less important than the fixes above.

Edited July 10, 2021 by oedipus_tex

[Mezmera]

I'm open to tweaks to Mind control for the rest of you that clamor for it.  But if you'd like to come play with my dom and see how good she is then want to have it buffed into a living god, well... okay, you mortals bow before the almighty Mezmera!

Edited July 10, 2021 by Mezmera

[Vanden]

3 hours ago, Vooded said:

Seeds and Mass Confusion both have a 16 target cap. 

 

Every time this topic comes up, Seeds turns out to be even more overpowered than I remember.

 

2 hours ago, ScarySai said:

I fully support this idea, but it's worth noting that plant is essentially carried by two powers: seeds and carrion. Without them as they are, plant would honestly be pretty garbage.

 

That’s not so odd; most Control sets have a ST immobilize and hold, an AoE immobilize and hold, and a pet, so that leaves only 4 powers for the sets to distinguish themselves from each other. A lot of control sets would be bad if you disregarded two of their non-standard powers. 

[Yomo Kimyata]

I give nerfing Seeds of Confusion two paws up.

[EmperorSteele]

I think maybe a super-nerfed versions of seeds should be TESTED,  and then have the numbers brought back up to a healthier place.

 

See how it works with a 15 second duration instead of 37.25. Give it a 2 minute recharge. Lower the target cap, range, arc, increase the activation time... make it literally unplayable, and slowly creep back up. I think we'd arrive at a happy medium, though to be fair, that would still constitute a nerf.

 

As for Mass Comedy, and Mind Control in general... I don't want to lose anything, but I'd also like to have a power that turns minions and LTs into pets or something. Pipe dream, probably!

[Greycat]

Yeah. Kind of  have to add my voice to the "While AOE holds should have recharge looked at, Seeds isn't the yardstick to use." (And for me, mass confusion > seeds simply for the lack of aggro on MC. Granted, this is offset a bit on Seeds side by either being on a dom and having attacks that early, or being on a team for other players to absorb some aggro, but still.)

[Kaballah]

Not interested in promoting a wildly unpopular nerf of Seeds. A straight, simple buff of Mind Control's recharge has been needed since Live and would be well-received, and if it proves to be *FINGERQUOTE* TOO POWERFUL *FINGERQUOTE* in testing well gosh I guess it could be reverted. 

[Kaballah]

23 hours ago, Vanden said:

characters would basically never have to fight an enemy that’s not immune to confusion ever again after level 33 or so.

 

this is such a meaningless value for developed characters, there are dozens of builds for essentially all ATs that can trivialize content. every well-made controller or dominator reaches this point, every tank and brute, most stalkers and scrappers and sentinels, most masterminds, many defender/corruptors, many blasters

[Vanden]

1 hour ago, Kaballah said:

this is such a meaningless value for developed characters, there are dozens of builds for essentially all ATs that can trivialize content. every well-made controller or dominator reaches this point, every tank and brute, most stalkers and scrappers and sentinels, most masterminds, many defender/corruptors, many blasters

 

Yeah, developed characters that need well-made builds, not just a single power slotted for recharge and duration.

Edited July 11, 2021 by Vanden

[...]

1 hour ago, Vanden said:

 

Yeah, developed characters that need well-made builds, not just a single power slotted for recharge and duration.

 

So nerf the duration in tandem with reducing the recharge. If the developers don't like the numbers I proposed, make perma-control attainable only on those toons with high set-bonus recharge, ie developed characters with well made builds. 

 

Control has significant limitations. In most cases, it's better to be tougher or have more firepower. Just let control classes compete! Where is that controller patch we were promised years ago? 

Edited July 11, 2021 by Vooded

[SwitchFade]

Facepalm

[...]

3 minutes ago, SwitchFade said:

Facepalm

 

Unclear what you are facepalming. Pro or against anything in particular? 

[arcane]

The implication that my plant control characters need to be “allowed to compete” is laughable. One of the strongest sets in the game (up there with Fiery Aura, Fire Blast, and Kinetics on mob-shredding capability) and a barely noticeable recharge tweak can’t change that on its own.

Edited July 11, 2021 by arcane