Hot Take: DIY!

[TheZag]

Theres several reasons why people ask for and offer builds.  We cant assume that everyone asks for a build out of laziness.  Theres plenty of forum for everyone.  If you are feeling the forum is cluttered then mark it as read and ignore it.

[Aurora_Girl]

Driving a car and playing a video game are...not the same thing. If I literally have no idea how cars work, putting me inside one isn't going to help me. I wouldn't be able to start it (or even know that "starting it" is a thing), let alone pilot it; assuming we'll go all the way with this clunky-ass metaphor.

 

Yes, play in the game! Learn new things! I learn something new or unusual about this place every single day. 

 

I suppose I just miss actual guides, descriptions of powers and how they feel to be wielded, rather than 0.5% MOAR DEF FOR MAX DMG WIN INCARNATE SMASH regardless of intention.

 

If the message anyone gets from what I'm saying is "play exactly how I want you to and no other way" that couldn't be further from the truth. It just seems, if I were new to the game and interacting with the community at all, it reads to me that login -> copy someone else's build -> profit (whatever profit even means) is the only way to feel "successful" at City of Heroes, and I think we can all rally around the idea that it's not.

To add another clunky metaphor: I won't tell you how to use your charcoal grill but if you're trying to use it in your garage with the door closed I might knock on it to tell you it's a bad idea.

[JJDrakken]

3 hours ago, The_Warpact said:

Not assuming, your thread has it that you do random builds and requests. Hence, the reason why I tagged you, didn't know you were not around any longer.

Trying to give people options if they need a build, your thread is a good starting point with its hundreds of different builds for different ATs, plus, I've seen you help quite a few folks out in the past so thats why I tagged ya.

 

If your not doing it any longer or you've moved on then I didn't know. So no worries. 

 

I still do request or if ideas strike me.  But I just don't live to do it 😛

Edited September 27, 2021 by JJDrakken

[Crysis]

Actually, rather than throw up a build first.

 

Use the Search function, either here or via Google.  Then import that build into Mids, play with it, likely totally hose it up if you don't know what you are doing and THEN post it up for feedback.  Because by that time you a) know how to use MIDS and b) have some idea of what you want.  And if I'm being honest...it shows you aren't totally lazy.

[Aurora_Girl]

4 hours ago, Crysis said:

Actually, rather than throw up a build first.

 

Use the Search function, either here or via Google.  Then import that build into Mids, play with it, likely totally hose it up if you don't know what you are doing and THEN post it up for feedback.  Because by that time you a) know how to use MIDS and b) have some idea of what you want.  And if I'm being honest...it shows you aren't totally lazy.

 

Exactly! Seems like a not-absurd level of initiative I can wholeheartedly support. 

[Bill Z Bubba]

I respond when I feel the desire to. I have absolutely zero rules on handing out builds, although I have noticed that I'll throw out my main's if the requestor is asking for anything claws or sr related far more than other builds.

 

I look at a lot of builds if I'm seeking info and ideas so the more builds posted to the forums, the better. We can't help but learn from each other and learning is good, yes?

[Bill Z Bubba]

To the topic of teach a man to fish or give him one... does it really matter which one if we just go on our own path not caring what others do afterwards?

Edited September 28, 2021 by Bill Z Bubba

[Sakura Tenshi]

Eh, for me the annoying part is that I'll put together a build, post it an ask for input and... nada. I mean, I get it, no one's obligated, but still kind of a frustrating bummer, you know?

[Aurora_Girl]

6 minutes ago, Sakura Tenshi said:

Eh, for me the annoying part is that I'll put together a build, post it an ask for input and... nada. I mean, I get it, no one's obligated, but still kind of a frustrating bummer, you know?

 

That's definitely a PITA. Any questions gone unanswered are no bueno. I'll keep an eye out for us and throw some wildly terrible advice your way. 😛

[Crysis]

38 minutes ago, Sakura Tenshi said:

Eh, for me the annoying part is that I'll put together a build, post it an ask for input and... nada. I mean, I get it, no one's obligated, but still kind of a frustrating bummer, you know?

 

I've done that a few times and have to assume either my build is about the best that can be accomplished and/or I really just didn't do enough searching for advice on the other umpteemthousand posts about the same build before doing so.  My Google-Fu is pretty decent and I usually try searching multiple variants before posting for help.  But in most cases...I get none because there's not much that can be done to improve my build and/or the forums just aren't that busy relative to "Live" days.

 

 

[Luminara]

I didn't know how to build anything when I decided to move off-grid.  I didn't know how PV arrays worked.  I didn't know how to make water come to me, instead of me going to fetch the water.  What I didn't know vastly outweighed what I did know, but the one thing I did know... was that I could figure it out.  And I did.  Just like I figured out how to work on 2t and 4t engines, and how to build and repair computers, I figured out how to build a cabin, how to size a PV array and battery bank, how to build a ram pump, how to build a dam, how to use a chainsaw, how to fell trees properly, and more.

 

We're all capable of doing what we imagine to be impossible, if we try.  In making the attempt, we learn.  In learning, we discover that the limitations we perceived in ourselves were illusory.  And sometimes we fail, but failure isn't something to be ashamed of, it's just another step in the learning process.  Trying and failing is more worthwhile than never trying at all.

 

It's not "too hard".  It's not "boring".  It's not cutting into your valuable time.  It's an opportunity.  Don't squander it by handing it off to someone else, do it yourself and develop greater self-reliance and confidence.

 

15 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

To the topic of teach a man to fish or give him one...

 

Neither.  Throw him into the wilderness with nothing but the clothes on his back and a Mora.  He'll figure it out.

[Yomo Kimyata]

3 minutes ago, Luminara said:

 

Neither.  Throw him into the wilderness with nothing but the clothes on his back and a Mora.  He'll figure it out.

 

I was going to ask what a Mora was, but then I realized.  It's when the moon hits your eye like a big pizza pie.

[Ignatz the Insane]

8 hours ago, TheZag said:

Theres several reasons why people ask for and offer builds.  We cant assume that everyone asks for a build out of laziness.  Theres plenty of forum for everyone.  If you are feeling the forum is cluttered then mark it as read and ignore it.

I think this is the right way to look at those asking for builds.  I know it's hard....I can remember a player asking for a build in the Scrapper section for Dark/Shield while there were two threads talking about Dark/Shield on the first page.  At first glance it seems they are either lazy or can't read.  Perhaps this is this their way to introduce themselves to the community, I don't know.  Regardless, a friendly response goes farther than silence or disparaging comments.  Linking to the appropriate threads is the least we can do as a community for such questions.  

[Songseven]

i wouldn't be so quick to assume why people do the things they do,

 

 

asking for builds in the appropriate 'forum' seems perfectly reasonable to me, regardless of your personal opinion of said persons imagined character,

 

 

thread just comes off a little arrogant and petty, disappointing when you see the experience they clearly have.

 

 

Edited September 28, 2021 by Songseven
smugly added clever pic

[Snarky]

On 9/25/2021 at 12:16 PM, Aurora_Girl said:

(Author's Note: This is purely for discussion, because it annoys me, and I'm looking for lively discourse.)

 

Rather than unabashedly asking for a completed build someone else spent their valuable time to create (which may or may not have your goals/concept/etc in mind), why not do it yourself? At least give it a shot first, then throw it up to be dissected civilly and have a back and forth on those goals and how to best fit them in. 

 

Conversely, if you don't even know where to begin, take your idea and ask for direction or something...give a man a build, set him on fire, ad nauseum. 

 

*Calling all "don't tell me how to have fun" folks!*

I fully agree.  My builds are sub par by the standards of modern CoH.  i do not proc everything out.  I use a decent build strategy from a great builder on live for Dark/Invul Brutes (high recharge build!) and Hyperstrike's guide for most other Invul outings.  For Blasters....I love my Blasters but they are not the damage kings that are currently in vogue.  Somewhat "Tanky" little 'damage tech dept' with a lot of odd tricks to get to the job and survive the experience...  But I really enjoy running these things.

[Aurora_Girl]

3 hours ago, Songseven said:

thread just comes off a little arrogant and petty

 

 

 

 

We clearly haven't met.

 

I am, in fact, arrogant and petty. 😏

[Greycat]

*tosses two cents in*

 

I'll say, for me, playing someone else's build usually = a character getting a respec soon because I feel like I'm playing someone else's character. I did it once with a Warshade I was familiar with back on live and ... nope, not doing that again. Made me appreciate the multiple builds we have available, as I didn't have to trash what I had to try it.

 

That's with "a character I'm playing," though. The power selections tend to vary with what I'm facing and what I need in the moment, and end up being as much a part of their "story," in their way, as their costume and bio. I rarely farm, but for that sort of - to me, "utility, not character," yeah, I'll grab a build.  For me, though, wanting that sort of character is *rare,* and I generally appreciate seeing the "why and wherefore" along with it. (Part of why I like, for instance, the "low budget guide to fire farming" as opposed to "here's a build," or did a CEBR back on live before that got nerfed, farm-wise.)

 

Regardless, I'll generally say "I don't do builds," probably half because of the above, and half because it seems so many are geared towards perma-this-capped-that gameplay that I'm not after. (Eh, maybe 65/35.) I find it boring. I don't want to be "untouchable," I want to need to be aware of what's going on and react to it.

 

As far as others asking for builds? Doesn't affect me. I'd just hope they've played through the game at least once, that they've got some idea of what powers do - or why they're being taken in builds and slotted X way, past "I need an extra .71% S/L... What does S/L stand for anyway?" And that they're not doing it because of the other issue comparing COH to other MMOs - they're coming from somewhere where "playing the game" = "rush to the end and get in raids to get the good gear for the next expansion that is mostly a level cap bump that invalidates all your gear."

 

[ZemX]

23 hours ago, Aurora_Girl said:

Driving a car and playing a video game are...not the same thing.

 

Didn't say they were.  A metaphor represents something but not literally.   Driving a car and playing a video game are both examples of operating a machine.  Neither is about building that machine or any part of it.  Hell, you could even take a completed IO build for a "test drive" on the test server.  How much closer did I need to get with this metaphor for you not to call it "clunky"?

 

23 hours ago, Aurora_Girl said:

If I literally have no idea how cars work

 

Didn't say this either.  I said you didn't need to BUILD the car to know how to drive it.   It's not a "clunky-ass metaphor" because you neither read nor understood it.  It's simply saying you don't have to know how to build something to know how to operate it.  Which is good because pretty much the entire world works this way.  I doubt there is a single automotive engineer who can operate a Formula 1 race car as well as the professionals who race them do.   The same is likely true of this game.  The players are likely FAR more capable than any of the fine folks who created this game. 

 

And so I think the same is true of IO set builds.  Driving one and creating one are two entirely different things.   Is it handy to be proficient in mucking about in Mid's?  Maybe.  But you can get THAT experience by playing around with an existing build too.  Maybe you'll find you like it and start creating your own.  Maybe you'll find it a dull exercise and you'd rather spend more time playing the game than doodling in Mid's.  Either is perfectly valid.  It's not for you or me to say what someone else should find fun.   

 

23 hours ago, Aurora_Girl said:

If the message anyone gets from what I'm saying is "play exactly how I want you to and no other way" that couldn't be further from the truth.

 

But you ARE saying this.  You are saying players must begin by at least trying to create their own IO builds from scratch.  I'm saying they don't.  If you believed people could play how they want you wouldn't be insisting they do IO builds YOUR way.

 

You view this as begging and I view it as an efficient way to get started with a character.  I don't know what your problem here is.  You seem to be acting like people are benefitting from something they didn't "earn" when this isn't a competitive game.  If someone else enjoys playing a pre-made build that another player was perfectly willing to give them what skin off your back is this exactly?

[Aurora_Girl]

17 minutes ago, ZemX said:

If someone else enjoys playing a pre-made build that another player was perfectly willing to give them what skin off your back is this exactly?

 

The skin off my back is a guy giving a toddler a car to drive and then me being the pedestrian that toddler crushes like a rotten peach on the sidewalk, because the toddler asked if he could drive. 

 

Both the toddler (the new player, asking for it whether they know they're not capable of driving or not) and the enabler (you, not caring), are the issue. 

 

All I ask is for new folks or those curious about new ATs or sets they have no experience with is to play the game. Learn why rad/fire is a quality choice for farming. Learn why knockback is a divisive issue. Learn why Super Stunners can die in a fire.

 

Or just throw them in the deep end of the pool because why the fuck not, right? If they drown it's the lifeguard's fault. My kids get water wings and advice about how to tread water because I want them to succeed. 

[ZemX]

20 minutes ago, Aurora_Girl said:

(some insane nonsense)

 

And you said MY analogy was bad?  You're a loon.

[battlewraith]

1 hour ago, Aurora_Girl said:

 

The skin off my back is a guy giving a toddler a car to drive and then me being the pedestrian that toddler crushes like a rotten peach on the sidewalk, because the toddler asked if he could drive. 

 

Both the toddler (the new player, asking for it whether they know they're not capable of driving or not) and the enabler (you, not caring), are the issue. 

 

 

So you're saying that, in the course of playing the game, you are being damaged somehow by inexperienced players using builds they got from other players? And that this is somehow....causing teams to go awry?

 

How are you quantifying this? If someone on your team sucks do you confront them--"Hey mister did you build that? Or did SOMEONE ELSE make if for you?!?"

 

I suspect that this discussion is simply a proclamation of how you feel things should be but I'd love to hear about some actual confrontations.

[ZemX]

Just now, battlewraith said:

So you're saying that, in the course of playing the game, you are being damaged somehow by inexperienced players using builds they got from other players? And that this is somehow....causing teams to go awry?

 

Don't try to make sense of it.  I think it's all just an elaborate troll.

[PLVRIZR]

1 hour ago, ZemX said:

 

And you said MY analogy was bad?  You're a loon.

 

You, Sir, win the internet today.  This was sidesplittingly humorous, especially after I re-read it out loud, using John Cleese's voice and inflection, from the Dead Parrot sketch...

[BZRKR]

18 hours ago, Luminara said:

Neither.  Throw him into the wilderness with nothing but the clothes on his back and a Mora.  He'll figure it out.

Oh sure, I'm sure anyone could survive if they had 600 Spartans along...😁

(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mora)

 

On topic, I like to see folks asking questions. It shows that they care at least a little about how they go about things in game. Sometimes, I feel like I have answers that are relevant and hopefully useful. That's when I answer a question. Other times I recognize that no one cares about my dumb opinion, and that's when I navigate away.

[GraspingVileTerror]

I regretfully admit that I couldn't read through this whole thread without going cross-eyed, so if someone else already said this, I apologize:

 

We human beings are people.  And people learn in an assortment of different ways.

One of those ways is imitation and emulation.

Some players -are- learning how the game works by using a pre-made build, then experimenting and exploring the game while using it as a stepping stone.

 

Let them have that.  Please?