Focused Feedback: Dual Blades - Quality of Life Improvements

[Booper]

This is a Focused Feedback Thread

• Please note that Focused Feedback threads are heavily moderated to ensure they remain on topic.
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• The most up-to-date version of the changes will be listed in the first post.
• The changes in each build will be posted as replies.
  • Changes from the previous beta build are listed in green.
    • Green text will become white text in the next set of patch notes.
  • Any changes or fixes that are only relevant to the beta builds are listed in blue.
    • Blue text will be deleted in the next set of patch notes as it is only relevant to highlight changes between beta builds, not a changes from live.
  • Known issues are listed in purple.

 

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Dual Blades

 

Quality of Life Improvements

• Combo-Builders no longer require a successful hit to build up the combo
• The CancelMods effect replaces the UnsetMode effect to improve the reliability of the combo system. This fixes multiple bugs such as random highlight rings popping up and combos breaking unintentionally.
• Dual Blades' power descriptions have added their relevant combo sequence information.
• All combos will now have a 6s window to continue/finish a combo-chain. However, this timer will always start at activation. One exception: Stalker's slow Assassin's Blades which will have an 8s duration to offset its 2s interruptible period.

 

Power Changes

• Placate's Empowered combo effect no longer stacks.

 

Bug Fixes

• Typhoon's Edge (Scrapper) - added missing Fiery Embrace effect for Bonus AoE finisher
• Vengeful Slice (Tanker) - corrected Fiery Embrace to apply its damage as a DoT to mirror how the power applied its damage (Brutes already did this).
• Ablating Strike (non-Stalker) - power now cancels the Weaken2 and Empower2 combos when used.
• Ablating Strike (Stalker) - power now cancels the Weaken2 combo when used.
• Power Slice (Stalker) - power now cancels the Weaken2 combo when used.

[ForeverLaxx]

I feel like the only feedback this needs is: Not having to hit attacks to do the combo? It's about time.

 

Though now the question is, is DB still "optimal" on the DPS front by ignoring the combos? At least, I think that's still true once you get enough recharge.

[BrandX]

43 minutes ago, ForeverLaxx said:

I feel like the only feedback this needs is: Not having to hit attacks to do the combo? It's about time.

 

Though now the question is, is DB still "optimal" on the DPS front by ignoring the combos? At least, I think that's still true once you get enough recharge.

 

That was my only wonder on it.  Does BF>Attack Vitals now beat the non combo route.  At the very least, it's got to get it closer to it.

[Glacier Peak]

Perfect time to test that question and provide the results back here for the rest of us. 

[Marshal_General]

6 hours ago, BrandX said:

 

That was my only wonder on it.  Does BF>Attack Vitals now beat the non combo route.  At the very least, it's got to get it closer to it.

I hope so. Using no combos on a combo set to get the best results didn't sit well with me.

[Coyotedancer]

DB fan-girl that I am, hopefully I'll have time to jump on and test that out sometime this week... Just reading through, though, 👍 on the lot of it. 

[BrandX]

Well, not sure how fast a DB/SR would be with non BF > Attack Vitals.  However, just ran it on test for 5:09 (251.9 DPS)  Not sure what that was running on Live currently either.

[DougReyn]

I have taken my DA/DB Tank of the shelves to test this change, and as suspected it is superb.

 

Missing with the combo finisher still miffs the combo due to the 6s time window, but i think that is ok.

It really makes it play a lot better now, and i think with this change I'll unshelf my DB toon on live too.

 

Great work there!

[ShardWarrior]

Going to do some more testing on this one today as I love DB on my scrapper.  One thing I remembered that I had been meaning to ask, can the existing ToHit IO sets get Accuracy added to them?  There are no Accurate ToHit buff sets and some of the bonuses on the existing ones work well with DEF based secondaries.  Thanks.

[Microcosm]

On 11/6/2021 at 6:48 AM, ForeverLaxx said:

I feel like the only feedback this needs is: Not having to hit attacks to do the combo? It's about time.

 

Though now the question is, is DB still "optimal" on the DPS front by ignoring the combos? At least, I think that's still true once you get enough recharge.

Depends on the way you approach it I think. You can do a standard build in which case, at 50 with a ridiculous amount of recharge, skipping combos is "better". OR you can try your hand at proccing it, or just not put an extreme emphasis on recharge, in which case combos could be better. I like that that allows different playstyles and build choices.

 

Even on ultra recharge builds, though, I always found the AoE combos at least useful.

[Oneirohero]

I haven't played this change yet, but my Scrapper will be happy not having their combo ruined by missing the first or second attack in a chain. Obviously missing the finisher is annoying, but a miss is a miss regardless of powerset. Honestly this change is the highlight of this patch for me.

 

I am sad to see Empower no longer stacks, though, although it kind of looks like the combo effect is the one that can't stack. Hopefully that means the power's actual buff remains intact, especially since it's a smaller boost than the combo effect.

[Booper]

4 hours ago, Oneirohero said:

I am sad to see Empower no longer stacks, though, although it kind of looks like the combo effect is the one that can't stack

The Empower combo only no longer stacks for Stalkers, it still stacks for other ATs.

 

The Stalker version of Empower does 20% Damage and 10% To-Hit for 20s, but requires the use of Placate which has a 60s cooldown. 

 

For other versions of Empower, the buff is only 10% damage (12.5% for scrappers) and 3.3% To-Hit for 10s, but uses Bleinding Feint which has a rapid recycle rate.

[Hjarki]

On 11/6/2021 at 8:33 AM, BrandX said:

 

That was my only wonder on it.  Does BF>Attack Vitals now beat the non combo route.  At the very least, it's got to get it closer to it.

I threw together a Stone/DB Tanker. My conclusion was that all you really needed was Nimble Slice, Ablative Strike, Blinding Feint and Sweeping Strike - and the only combo I use is Empower.

 

This makes sense on a Tanker. You're forced to take Nimble Slice anyway and you've got twice the targets and 50% wider arc on Sweeping Strike. With the impact of Empower on the damage from primary, it's better than trying to pull off Attack Vitals. Sweep would do more AE damage, but it would require taking 3 powers that I wouldn't otherwise take.

 

On Scrapper, I'm not sure this reasoning holds.

[BrandX]

7 hours ago, Hjarki said:

I threw together a Stone/DB Tanker. My conclusion was that all you really needed was Nimble Slice, Ablative Strike, Blinding Feint and Sweeping Strike - and the only combo I use is Empower.

 

This makes sense on a Tanker. You're forced to take Nimble Slice anyway and you've got twice the targets and 50% wider arc on Sweeping Strike. With the impact of Empower on the damage from primary, it's better than trying to pull off Attack Vitals. Sweep would do more AE damage, but it would require taking 3 powers that I wouldn't otherwise take.

 

On Scrapper, I'm not sure this reasoning holds.

 

I can't speak for Tanker, however, last I recall, Empower on a Scrapper did not outperform Attack Vitals.

 

If this has changed, it's news to me.  Perhaps the Tanker numbers make for better DPS with Empower.

[Hjarki]

3 hours ago, BrandX said:

I can't speak for Tanker, however, last I recall, Empower on a Scrapper did not outperform Attack Vitals.

Attack Vitals has a small advantage when I ran the numbers of just running the two sequences I was talking about. However, Empower also affects both the damage from priimary and any other attacks you decide to toss into the sequence.

 

For Scrappers, some quick-and-dirty numbers:

Nimble Blades: 52.55 in 1.188

Ablating Strike: 82.58 in 1.188

Blinding Feint: 50.05 in 1.452

Sweeping Strike: 106.35 in 1.452

If we assume 150% bonus damage, this would be (52.55 + 82.58 + 50.05 + 106.35 * 5) * (1 + 1.5 + 0.5 * 10 / (1.188 * 2 + 1.452 * 2)) = 2471.23 damage

 

Vengeful Slice: 102.60 in 2.64

This would be (82.85 + 102.6 + 106.35 * 5 + 62.56 * 5) * (1 + 1.5) = 2575.00 damage

 

So there's a small advantage for Attack Vitals. However, the bonus from Empower applies to everything. So you're also getting more damage from Mud Pots, more damage from Brimstone Armor and more damage from any subsequent attacks you make after Sweeping Strike (such as another AE).

 

Scrapper criticals also creates a wrinkle. The additional damage from Attack Vitals can't crit, but the additional damage from simply having a higher +damage total can. Putting Superior Critical Strikes in Blinding Feint will mean you get the proc on both single target and AE, while putting it in Vengeful Slice doesn't do much for you single target.

 

My suspicion is that the best possible AE performance would involve interleaving the normal (non-Empower sequence) Blinding Feint with a series of AE and not worrying about the combo system at all. Ablating Strike is a decent enough basic attack and Vengeful Slice is a mediocre basic attack - but spending all that activation time on attacks that only affect one target when you could be affecting 10 targets at once is unlikely to be all that productive.

[kelika2]

On 11/2/2021 at 3:11 PM, Booper said:

• All combos will now have a 6s window to continue/finish a combo-chain. However, this timer will always start at activation. One exception: Stalker's slow Assassin's Blades which will have an 8s duration to offset its 2s interruptible period.

 

Can this get bumped up to 15 seconds or so?

One of the huge turnoffs for me on the set is the time it takes to get to the next group when the current group gets deleted super fast and having to watch the stage 3 combo drop

 

Or even uniqueness be damned, i would even go for switching to StJ and Staffs combo system.  Now it feels you need two different builds, one for low level and the other for high level or need to kinda suck it and take all 9 powers.  with the right or wrong secondary its always going to be a tight build

[DoctorDitko]

I'm testing Dual Blades now, and I'm again seeing the longstanding bug where I see my weapons but teammates don't. Is this a settings thing?

Edited November 24, 2021 by DoctorDitko

[Hew]

On 11/9/2021 at 12:36 PM, kelika2 said:

One of the huge turnoffs for me on the set is the time it takes to get to the next group when the current group gets deleted super fast and having to watch the stage 3 combo drop

 

This is solved (and people may not like this answer), by engaging in the challenge mode/new incarnate content, where things arent deleted super fast. 

[Sovera]

1 hour ago, Hew said:

This is solved (and people may not like this answer), by engaging in the challenge mode/new incarnate content, where things arent deleted super fast. 

 

I agree with what you are saying, but lets take it easy with that example since that challenge mode is one TF (so far). There is only so many times one TF can be ran in a month before tedium settles in.

[UltraAlt]

15 hours ago, DoctorDitko said:

I'm testing Dual Blades now, and I'm again seeing the longstanding bug where I see my weapons but teammates don't. Is this a settings thing?

 

Edited November 24, 2021 by UltraAlt

[Hew]

12 hours ago, Sovera said:

I agree with what you are saying, but lets take it easy with that example since that challenge mode is one TF (so far). There is only so many times one TF can be ran in a month before tedium settles in.

 

You also have flashback lr, incarnate roman content, and i think one or two other bits that have increased challenge that isnt "challenge mode". Flashback lr is pretty tough...

 

I agree that 3 or so bits of enhanced content difficulty does not a game make, but am confident we will see more of this somewhere in p4!