Focused Feedback: Villain Group changes

[Booper]

This is a Focused Feedback Thread

• Please note that Focused Feedback threads are heavily moderated to ensure they remain on topic.
  • Any off-topic posts in these threads will be removed without warning.
  • The thread will be locked when no more feedback is required, but you are more than welcome to continue the discussion in a new thread.
• The most up-to-date version of the changes will be listed in the first post.
• The changes in each build will be posted as replies.
  • Changes from the previous beta build are listed in green.
    • Green text will become white text in the next set of patch notes.
  • Any changes or fixes that are only relevant to the beta builds are listed in blue.
    • Blue text will be deleted in the next set of patch notes as it is only relevant to highlight changes between beta builds, not a changes from live.
  • Known issues are listed in purple.

 

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Villain Groups 

Fixed a bug in the AI of Critters that have foe-targeted summons. Fixes Devoured bosses not summoning swarms, and probably other things.

 

Critter Changes 

• AV, and Giant Monsters should now be able to use their weakest attacks when fully end-drained. AVs should be able to use attacks that cost less than 10 end to cast. Giant Monsters should be able to use attacks that cost less than 15 end to cast.
• EB and Arch Villain min recovery is now capped at 25% instead of 0% Giant Monster min recovery is now capped at 50% instead of 0%

 

Crey

The Crey enemy group has been adjusted at high level, as the group was majorly lacking in diversity above level 40.

• The armored Crey lieutenant mobs (Eliminator, Crisis Unit, Juggernaut) that only existed from levels 30-34, have been extended up to 54.
• At levels 40+ a lieutenant version of the Crey Protector can spawn.
• These adjusted lieutenant enemies have had their attack chains and powers redone, fixing issues previously where if they engaged in melee without their weapon drawn they would only cycle Brawl infinitely.
• Psychic and Radiation Paragon Protectors that are seen at lower levels inexplicably stopped spawning after level 34, these have had their level range expanded up to 54, making them consistent with other types of Paragon Protectors who appear at all level ranges.

Lieutentants:

• Crey Eliminator:
  • Chain Gun: Ranged Lethal, High Dam, +Acc
  • Kick: Melee, Light DMG(Smashing), Foe Stun
  • Brawl: Melee, Light DMG(Smashing)
  • (Level 35+ only) Tear Gas Grenade: Targeted AoE, -Perception, -ACC
• Crey Crisis Unit:
  • Grenade Launcher: Targeted AoE, Lethal/Smash, Knockback
  • Sleep Gas: Targeted AoE, Sleep
  • Kick: Melee, Light DMG(Smashing), Foe Stun
  • Brawl: Melee, Light DMG(Smashing)
  • (Level 35+ only) Hallucinogenic Gas: Targeted AoE, Confuse
• Crey Juggernaut:
  • Missile Launcher: Ranged Lethal/Smash, +KB
  • Kick: Melee, Light DMG(Smashing), Foe Stun
  • Brawl: Melee, Light DMG(Smashing)
  • Personal Force Field: Self Toggle Invulnerable, Special
    • New FX, can now attack while protected.
  • (Level 35+ only) Taunt: Ranged (Targeted AoE), Foe Taunt
    • Targets Ranged defense, 1.4 Accuracy
• Crey Protector:
  • Cryo Rifle: Ranged, Light DMG(Cold), -Recharge, -Speed, Sleep
  • Kick: Melee, Light DMG(Smashing), Foe Stun
  • Brawl: Melee, Light DMG(Smashing)
  • Dispersion Bubble: Team AoE Toggle +Res(Special)
  • (Level 40+ only) Deflection Shield: Ranged, Ally +DEF(Smash, Lethal, Melee), Res(Toxic)
  • (Level 40+ only) Force Bolt: Ranged, Minor DMG(Smash), Foe Knockback

New Enemies:

• Cryogenicist bosses added, spawning at levels 35-54, limit 1 per spawn group:
  • Cryogenic Shot: Ranged, Moderate DMG(Cold), Foe Immobolize, Foe Slow, Foe -Rech
  • Cryogenic Beam: Ranged (Cone), Moderate DMG(Energy), Foes -Def(All), Foes Slow, Foes -Rech
  • Absolute-Zero Beam: Narrow Ranged (Cone), High DMG(Cold), Foes -Res, Foes Slow, Foes -Rech
  • Ice Shield: Ranged, Ally +DEF(Melee, Smash, Lethal), Res(Cold, Fire)
  • Benumb: High Accuracy, Ranged Foe -DMG, -END, -Regeneration, -Special
  • Serum: Self Heal, +Max HP
  • Hypo: Ally Heal, Mez Protection
  • Reanimate: Ally Rez, Special
• Crey Gamma Tank minions added, spawning at levels 46-54, limit 2 per spawn group:
  • Contaminated Strike: Melee, Light DMG(Energy/Smash), Foe -Def
  • Radioactive Smash: Melee, Moderate DMG(Energy/Smash), Foe -Def, Knockdown
  • Radiation Siphon: Melee, High DMG(Energy/Smash), Foe, -Def
  • Neutrino Bolt: Ranged, Minor DMG(Energy), Foe -DEF
  • Positron Cell: Ranged, Light DMG(Energy), Foe Hold, -Def

 

Arachnos

Arachnos continues to evolve as the supreme villainous organization! Limitations have been lifted, allowing certain career paths within the group to accommodate stand-out individuals in their ranks regardless of gender. This brings them to canonical parity with the existence of the Villain Epic ATs.

• These new genders (female soldiers, male widows) have a 12.50% chance of spawning.
• The divisions that have expanded their ranks are
  • Wolf Spiders
  • Crab Spiders
  • Bane Spiders
  • Blood Widows
  • Night Widows
  • Fortunatas (Mistress rank remains female-only)

 

5th Column

• Added new max level Lycanthrope LTs and Bosses to the standard 5th Column at SpawnLimit 1. They previously only spawned on LTs between 24-29 and Bosses 20-24, this change will make obtaining The Beast Within defeat badge more reasonable.

 

Shivans

• Fixed erroneous name of Shivan lieutenants from 'Shivan Smashers' to 'Shivan Smasher'.

 

Knives of Artemis

• Fixed incorrect texture on the Knives of Artemis' broadsword weapon.
• Fixed minor visual issue on Knives of Artemis broadsword blade tip.

[darkgob]

On 11/2/2021 at 7:00 PM, Booper said:

Shivans

• Fixed erroneous name of Shivan lieutenants from 'Shivan Smashers' to 'Shivan Smasher'.

ohmygodohmygodohmygodohmygodohmygodohmygodohmygodohmygodohmygodohmygodohmygodohmygodohmygodohmygodohmygodohmygod

 

the dream is reAL

[Sovera]

Here I was browsing the changes to see if PPs lost their T9.

[Lazarillo]

On 11/2/2021 at 6:00 PM, Booper said:

Personal Force Field: Self Toggle Invulnerable, Special

• New FX, can now attack while protected.

Do we really need a further extending of the broken old i0 bosses you defeat by alt-tabbing?

[Kai Moon]

On 11/2/2021 at 4:00 PM, Booper said:

• AV, and Giant Monsters should now be able to use their weakest attacks when fully end-drained. AVs should be able to use attacks that cost less than 10 end to cast. Giant Monsters should be able to use attacks that cost less than 15 end to cast.
• EB and Arch Villain min recovery is now capped at 25% instead of 0% Giant Monster min recovery is now capped at 50% instead of 0%

A long time ago, the CoH devs had to slap in some hurried changes to endurance drain powers, after they inadvertently made end drain useless in most situations against higher rank critters.

 

With that in mind.

* AVs gain 53 endurance per tick. A 25% recovery floor would guarantee ticks of 53 endurance every 16 seconds or faster.

* GMs also gain 53 endurance per tick. A 50% recovery floor would guarantee ticks of 53 endurance every 8 seconds or faster.

* Recovery floors would slow down, and potentially prevent altogether, the increasing chance to Shock as endurance depletes. Electric blast could lag in DPS against AVs and GMs due to these floors. Worst case, an electric blast user could get no chance to Shock at all against any AV or GM.

* AVs and GMs ignoring endurance costs would be in addition to periodically getting to use any attack costing less than 53 end. For example, with infinite endurance drain and recovery debuff, Kraken would get to ignore endurance costs on Spit and Pummel, on top of getting to Foot Stomp every 8 seconds - only slightly slower than Foot Stomp's normal cycle rate.

* In particular, Lusca and her tentacles have no attacks that cost more than 15 end. Lusca would be functionally immune to end drain.

[Peacemoon]

The changes to Crey are direly needed, but I would go further and also buff their scientists a bit (30-39 range). They are extremely weak and don't really have any attacks, especially for a villain group of that level range. I believe the Medic only has brawl and aid other, which is interruptable. 

I think scientists being weak is a Crey thing, but they I would give them some basic abilities!

[JAMMan0000]

Bless you 🙂

• Fix a longstanding bug where missions would be launched with the wrong difficulty settings if the mission owner was not in the same zone as the door and another teammate entered it first.

[golstat2003]

3 hours ago, JAMMan0000 said:

Bless you 🙂

• Fix a longstanding bug where missions would be launched with the wrong difficulty settings if the mission owner was not in the same zone as the door and another teammate entered it first.

 

This one is one of the greatest fixes in modern COH history. Finally!

[Gatling]

5 hours ago, Kai Moon said:

A long time ago, the CoH devs had to slap in some hurried changes to endurance drain powers, after they inadvertently made end drain useless in most situations against higher rank critters.

 

With that in mind.

* AVs gain 53 endurance per tick. A 25% recovery floor would guarantee ticks of 53 endurance every 16 seconds or faster.

* GMs also gain 53 endurance per tick. A 50% recovery floor would guarantee ticks of 53 endurance every 8 seconds or faster.

* Recovery floors would slow down, and potentially prevent altogether, the increasing chance to Shock as endurance depletes. Electric blast could lag in DPS against AVs and GMs due to these floors. Worst case, an electric blast user could get no chance to Shock at all against any AV or GM.

* AVs and GMs ignoring endurance costs would be in addition to periodically getting to use any attack costing less than 53 end. For example, with infinite endurance drain and recovery debuff, Kraken would get to ignore endurance costs on Spit and Pummel, on top of getting to Foot Stomp every 8 seconds - only slightly slower than Foot Stomp's normal cycle rate.

* In particular, Lusca and her tentacles have no attacks that cost more than 15 end. Lusca would be functionally immune to end drain.

It was already hard enough to end drain some AV's (Some literally not possible to end drain) 
I don't think the endurance changes to AV's were necessary. Especially if they were going to give them Moves that can use while drained anyway. 

[Vanden]

On 11/2/2021 at 7:00 PM, Booper said:

These new genders (female soldiers, male widows) have a 12.50% chance of spawning.

 

Ah, like in Pokémon

[Replacement]

On 11/2/2021 at 7:00 PM, Booper said:

Critter Changes 

• AV, and Giant Monsters should now be able to use their weakest attacks when fully end-drained. AVs should be able to use attacks that cost less than 10 end to cast. Giant Monsters should be able to use attacks that cost less than 15 end to cast.
• EB and Arch Villain min recovery is now capped at 25% instead of 0% Giant Monster min recovery is now capped at 50% instead of 0%

 

I won't do this... probably ever again if I can help it, but I'm just going to ping you both, @Captain Powerhouse and @Player-1.  

 

You know why I agree with this direction of change and why I find it necessary already.  But I want to point out some implications I realized while sapping late last night (probably this morning, technically).

 

Binary Saps  - As a nice little touch on the way to getting an enemy to zero endurance, the new Shocked! procs are awesome to make sapping less binary.  But, with the AV/GM changes, it's instead more of a mechanic hijack (Perfectly sapping GMs and AVs can have little effect - probably none on some - which leaves Shock as the only realistic benefit vs these targets unless you're running multiple sappers).

 

To be perfectly clear, what I'm saying is the AV/GM changes force you guys into a promise implicitly: that other Electric sets need similar scaling effects because the initial goal of sapping is shifting.

 

These special enemies cannot be detoggled - I'm honestly not aware of who this would affect, but even if it's zero, it's still a design consideration.  The End floor means the statement "Sap to detoggle" now becomes "Sap to detoggle, unless they are AV+".

[Koopak]

Ill also note that yeah there are alot of AVs who have access to 90% of their kit under these new sapping rules. This make the changes kinda 1 step forward, 2 steps back. As Replacement said, the only value under these rules for sapping AVs or GMs is for Shocking procs.

To emphasis the point, there are the powers say, Lord Recluse can use while at 0 end under these rules, and the damage they do at lvl 50 +0.

Energy Punch: 874 damage
Energy Smash: 1714 damage
Slice: 1049 damage
Arm Lash: 481 damage
Channelgun: 944 damage

Here's whats prevented

Spider Strike: 1434 damage
Suppression: 1012 damage
Both Summons

This wouldn't be a problem if it wasn't for the fact that sapping already did exist. It is difficult and requires a dedicated build, but it was possible to sap out an AV and make them unable to attack more than once per recovery tick. This obviously is to much, and I like the idea of AVs and GMs having access to some of their kit regardless of their endurance but as is this threshold simply doesn't work. An AV threshold of 5 would work better in Lord Recluse case giving him access only to Energy Punch and Slice, which keeps him a threat but not able to insta gib the sapper for the audacity of zapping him.
 

[Griffyn]

On 11/5/2021 at 8:17 PM, Kai Moon said:

A long time ago, the CoH devs had to slap in some hurried changes to endurance drain powers, after they inadvertently made end drain useless in most situations against higher rank critters.

 

With that in mind.

* AVs gain 53 endurance per tick. A 25% recovery floor would guarantee ticks of 53 endurance every 16 seconds or faster.

* GMs also gain 53 endurance per tick. A 50% recovery floor would guarantee ticks of 53 endurance every 8 seconds or faster.

* Recovery floors would slow down, and potentially prevent altogether, the increasing chance to Shock as endurance depletes. Electric blast could lag in DPS against AVs and GMs due to these floors. Worst case, an electric blast user could get no chance to Shock at all against any AV or GM.

* AVs and GMs ignoring endurance costs would be in addition to periodically getting to use any attack costing less than 53 end. For example, with infinite endurance drain and recovery debuff, Kraken would get to ignore endurance costs on Spit and Pummel, on top of getting to Foot Stomp every 8 seconds - only slightly slower than Foot Stomp's normal cycle rate.

* In particular, Lusca and her tentacles have no attacks that cost more than 15 end. Lusca would be functionally immune to end drain.

All of this and I'll add that there are a *ton* of AVs who are effectively immune to End Drain. Those AVs would still laugh at this recovery floor as you can't even get them to 90%. And across the board enemy groups are much more effective with End Drain as players actually use End. This is not the case for enemy mobs. Powers take too little "effective End" to use so the only way to effectively reduce the mobs abilities is to take them to zero End and with many of the high level mobs it's not even a possibility.

 

The Devs need to take a step back and really consider if fixing End Drain is even possible or if they should start to replace it across the board. If it's not useful, get rid of it.

[Koopak]

1 minute ago, Griffyn said:

All of this and I'll add that there are a *ton* of AVs who are effectively immune to End Drain. Those AVs would still laugh at this recovery floor as you can't even get them to 90%. And across the board enemy groups are much more effective with End Drain as players actually use End. This is not the case for enemy mobs. Powers take too little "effective End" to use so the only way to effectively reduce the mobs abilities is to take them to zero End and with many of the high level mobs it's not even a possibility.

 

The Devs need to take a step back and really consider if fixing End Drain is even possible or if they should start to replace it across the board. If it's not useful, get rid of it.

Im gonna jump on this real fast.

One of the people i play with near daily has an elec/kin controller dedicated to end draining. They absolutely can lock down 99% of mobs into doing little to nothing, its comical. They had to bend their entire build around it to make it work, but they did. Enemies do use end, and can be heavily restricted from their powers, so i get why the Devs wanna let AVs and GMs ignore some of that but i think the current implementation is to much.

[Koopak]

Adding to my breakdown of what meets this end criteria and how it impacts various AVs by breaking down the praetorians. All of these are at lvl 50, and damage is truncated for readability. Note we don't have specifics on how this may effect toggles if at all, if someone wants to test that id appreciate it, else ill get to it when i can.

-Anti-matter-

Less than 10 end

Neutrino Bolt: 4.2 end, 314 damage

X-Ray Beam: 7 end, 524 damage

More than 10 end
Neutrino Bomb: 13.44 end, 524 damage
Electron Haze: 20.44, 723 damage
Cosmic Burst: 14 end, 1049 damage
Irradiate: 24.92 end, 520 damage (total of dot)

Lingering Radiation: 21 end, 0 damage (debuff)
Atomic Blast: 28 end, 786-1179 damage (variable)

-Battle Maiden-

Less than 10 end
Slash: 7 end, 874 damage
Parry: 5.88 end 734 damage

More than 10 end
Crossbow: 11.48 end, 524 damage
Exploding Bolts: 11.48 end, 524 damage

Hack: 11.48 end, 1434 damage
Slice: 11.48, 1075 damage
Whirling Sword: 17.5 end, 1135 damage
Disembowl: 13.72 end, 1714 damage
Head Splitter: 15.4 end, 1749 damage

-Black Swan-

Less than 10 end
Dark Blast: 7 end, 524 damage
Shadow Punch: 5.88 end, 734 damage

More than 10 end
Night Fall: 17.64 end, 570 damage (dot)
Gloom: 11.48 end, 920 damage
Dark Regeneration: 45.5 end, 174 damage (self heal)
Tenebrous Tenticals: 13.72 end, 486 damage
Life Drain: 21 end, 524 damage
Siphon Life: 21 end, 874 damage
Shadow Maul: 11.2 end, 1880 damage
Midnight Grasp: 16.1 end, 2079 damage

-Bobcat-

Less than 10 end
Swipe: 4.536 end, 610 damage
Strike: 6.104 end, 874 damage
Slash: 7.896 end, 1154 damage
Focus: 9.688 end, 860 damage

More than 10 end
Spin: 18.2 end, 874 damage
Eviscerate: 13.72 end, 1486-2360 damage (variable)
Follow Up: 10.5 end, 699 damage
Shockwave: 17.5 end, 874 damage

-Chimera-

Less than 10 end
Hack: 8.12 end, 1364 damage
Slash: 5.88 end, 1082 damage
Slice: 8.12 end, 1213 damage
Parry: 5.88, 1082 damage
Bow: 9.24 end, 692 damage

More than 10 end
Whirling Sword: 17.5 end, 1534 damage
Disembowel: 12.6 end, 1922 damage
Head Splitter: 12.6 end, 2097 damage

-Diabolique-

Less than 10 end
Force Bolt: 7 end, 524 damage

More than 10 end
Force Bomb: 14 end, 692 damage

-Dominatrix-

Less than 10 end
nada

More than 10 end
Crush: 10.5 end, 520 damage
Gravity Distortion, 10.5 end, 0 damage
Propel: 12.6 end, 986 damage
Crushing Field: 21 end, 156 damage
Gravity Distortion Field: 21 end, 0 damage

-Infernal-

Less than 10 end
Gash: 8.12 end, 1362 damage
Flares: 4.97 end, 476 damage
Fire Blast: 7 end, 732 damage

More than 10 end
Chop: 11.48 end, 1869 damage
Beheader: 12.46 end, 2096 damage
Pendulum: 17.5 end, 2184 damage
Whirling Axe: 17.5 end, 1309 damage
Fire Breath: 20.44 end, 921 damage
Fire Ball: 20.44 end, 627 damage

-Malaise-

Less than 10 end
Mesmerize: 7 end. 524 damage

More than 10 end
Mass Hypnosis: 21 end, 419 damage
Dominate: 10.5 end, 524 damage
Total Domination: 10.5 end, 419 damage
 

-Marauder-

Less than 10 end
Punch: 7 end, 874 damage

More than 10 end
Haymaker: 11.48 end, 1434 damage
Hand Clap: 17.5 end, 0 damage
Foot Stomp: 18.2 end, 524 damage
Hurl: 12.6 end, 1434 damage

-Beloved MOTHER-

Less than 10 end
Mental Blast: 7 end, 524 love
Will Domination: 7 end, 1028 love
Psychic Scream: 7 end, 545 love
Psychic Tornado: 7 end, 465 love

More than 10 end
Telekinetic Blast: 11.48 end, 849 love
Subdue: 11.48 end, 860 love


-Neuron-

Less than 10 end
Charged Bolts: 7 end, 524 damage
Charged Brawl: 7 end, 874 damage

More than 10 end
Lightning Bolt: 11.48 end, 860 damage
Ball Lightning: 20.44 end, 533 damage
Tesla Cage: 13.72 end, 104 damage
Havoc Punch: 11.48 end, 1433 damage
Lightning Clap: 17.5 end, 0 damage
Thunder Strike: 21 end, 1749 damage
Power Sink: 17.5 end, 0 damage
Shocking Grasp: 24.5 end, 1572 damage

-Nightstar-

Less than 10 end
Power Bolt: 7 end, 523 damage
Nova: 7 end, 1048 damage

More than 10 end
Power Blast: 11.48 end, 859 damage
Explosive Blast: 20.44 end, 524 damage
Power Burst: 14 end, 1111 damage
Energy Torrent: 15.96 end, 503 damage

-Shadow Hunter-

Less than 10 end
Stone Fist: 7 end, 874 damage

More than 10 end
Fault: 13.72 end, 0 damage
Tremor: 18.2 end, 524 damage
Seismic Smash: 15.4 end, 1749 damage
Hurl Bolder: 12.6 end, 860 damage
Stone Prison: 10.5 end, 520 damage
Stalagmites: 14 end, 131 damage

-Siege-

Less than 10 end
Energy Punch: 7 end, 874 damage

More than 10 end
Bone Smasher: 11.48 end, 1433 damage
Whirling Hands: 17.5 end, 873 damage
Stun: 13.72 end, 218 damage
Power Blast: 11.48 end, 859 damage
Explosive Blast: 20.44 end, 471 damage

-Tyrant-

Less than 10 end
Energy Punch: 7 end, 874 damage
Laser Beam Eyes: 7 end, 524 damage

More than 10 end
Bone Smash: 11.48 end, 1433 damage
Whirling Hands: 17.5 end, 873 damage
Stun: 13.72 end, 218 damage
Total Focus: 11.48 end, 1696 damage


Phew.... after going through that i see that 10 end wasn't chosen arbitrarily. However for some of the listed AVs this results in them being just as helpless as before when sapped, and for others they just don't care. I personally feel the recovery floor handles this better than an arbitrary end value that AVs can ignore the requirements for. If we have to then id suggest 7 as the cut off, that keeps most AVs here with 1-2 powers atleast.

However for clarity, if someone would do me a favor and look into non praetorian AVs, this took a lot of time to go through.

Edited November 9, 2021 by Koopak

[Replacement]

On 11/8/2021 at 10:12 PM, Koopak said:

Phew.... after going through that i see that 10 end wasn't chosen arbitrarily. However for some of the listed AVs this results in them being just as helpless as before when sapped, and for others they just don't care.

The logical follow-up plan is to find and adjust these outliers. 

 

If we accept this is the future, we would then pivot to reporting mobs on both sides of the 10/15 line (and your list above becomes a fantastic starting point).  And it follows that more specific tuning could occur and probably be good for the game anyway - like Mother's Will Domination? That's a lot of rare love for only 7 End.

 

I know a lot of folks hold disdain for changes that require more changes, but if it's what it takes to shift us towards strong, fast-acting saps, I'm all for it.

 

Can't help but think it will really make it difficult to introduce endurance cost penalty debuffs down the road though.

[Griffyn]

On 11/8/2021 at 10:12 PM, Koopak said:

Phew.... after going through that i see that 10 end wasn't chosen arbitrarily. However for some of the listed AVs this results in them being just as helpless as before when sapped, and for others they just don't care. I personally feel the recovery floor handles this better than an arbitrary end value that AVs can ignore the requirements for. If we have to then id suggest 7 as the cut off, that keeps most AVs here with 1-2 powers atleast.

However for clarity, if someone would do me a favor and look into non praetorian AVs, this took a lot of time to go through.

1. As noted by @Replacement there are some issues with the current End costs of powers.
2. Second, you are not taking into account the other change that is proposed:  "EB and Arch Villain min recovery is now capped at 25% instead of 0% Giant Monster min recovery is now capped at 50% instead of 0%". As noted by @Kai Moon earlier in the thread the amount of End recovered will not eliminate the use of powers that cost more than 10 End.
3. Was your friend who is entirely focused on End Drain able to reduce all of the AVs that you listed to zero End?  If not, I don't see how any of the proposed changes are going to affect those AVs in any event.

I'm not opposed to the changes if it makes End Draining less binary. If you can drain the mobs to zero incredibly quickly, then they won't be able to attack for a short time. For the EBs/AVs/GMs that can be drained it does neuter them for a while. However, the vast majority of the EBs/AVs/GMs can't be drained at all.  So End Drain is marginal at *best* right now and these changes, although well meaning, will kill the small niche of usability that they currently have now.

 

[Koopak]

@Griffyn point 2 is not ommited and infact I think does a better job than the arbitrary end value ignore.

 

Point 3, yes, absolutely, and as is this patch will invalidate their build against several AVs

 

Since no one else has taken up the task ill see about listing the remaining AVs on friday

[Replacement]

On 11/10/2021 at 3:47 PM, Griffyn said:

So End Drain is marginal at *best* right now and these changes, although well meaning, will kill the small niche of usability that they currently have now.

I wouldn't go so far.

Under this system, you can keep an AV at 10 endurance for up to 16 seconds.  

 

I'm sure there are opportunities for continued refinement, but I wouldn't throw the baby out with the bath water on this approach.

 

For context, no regular controller or dominator - especially on SOs - can reduce an AV down to attacking only once every 16 seconds.

 

Without the End floor, that's what a Blast set can do, completely eating the Control ATs' lunch.  

 

On this current build, it's best to think of it as a delayed, but very strong Slow vs AVs.  This is more inline with blast sets and support characters.

I just wish it could be used - even theoretically - to detoggle special enemies.  

[Replacement]

On 11/8/2021 at 10:12 PM, Koopak said:

-Beloved MOTHER-

Will Domination: 7 end, 1028 love

 

It's never been true that AVs (or mobs in general) "cheat" and use powers regardless of endurance, but I'm quickly realizing their endurance costs are rampant amounts of bull shit.

 

Powerhouse, plz!

[Griffyn]

On 11/10/2021 at 6:38 PM, Koopak said:

@Griffyn point 2 is not ommited and infact I think does a better job than the arbitrary end value ignore.

 

Point 3, yes, absolutely, and as is this patch will invalidate their build against several AVs

 

Since no one else has taken up the task ill see about listing the remaining AVs on friday

@Koopak But on point 2 it's not one or the other. Not only will they have free use of low End powers, the GMs will have a 50% Recovery Floor which will allow them to constantly regain End as well.

 

On point 3, if what you say is true then your friend is the only person that I have ever heard about in the game who is able to drain End from certain AVs/GMs. I have seen others who have tried End Drain and I have even tried it myself.

 

I like the concept listed here but I think that the AV/GM/EB protections need to be seriously considered.

[Griffyn]

On 11/11/2021 at 9:27 PM, Replacement said:

I wouldn't go so far.

Under this system, you can keep an AV at 10 endurance for up to 16 seconds.  

 

I'm sure there are opportunities for continued refinement, but I wouldn't throw the baby out with the bath water on this approach.

 

For context, no regular controller or dominator - especially on SOs - can reduce an AV down to attacking only once every 16 seconds.

 

Without the End floor, that's what a Blast set can do, completely eating the Control ATs' lunch.  

 

On this current build, it's best to think of it as a delayed, but very strong Slow vs AVs.  This is more inline with blast sets and support characters.

I just wish it could be used - even theoretically - to detoggle special enemies.  

My comment was about the current state of the concept on Homecoming server. Just like live, there are only a few AVs/GMs that a dedicated end drainer can affect. With normal mobs on most teams you can barely drain end as fast as health bars drop. So the niche is currently only a few AVs/GMs and that will quite possibly go away with these changes.

 

As I've said a few times I'm not against the changes and I think that they might be good. I'm just not convinced that this has been completely thought through. That's very reminiscent of live when the Devs completely nerfed End Drain and then never went back to readjust it.

 

The AVs might be reduced to 10 End but that's not going to reduce their attacks to once every 16s unless they only have one low End power with a 16s recharge.

 

I have no problem with a Defender or Corruptor being better at debuffing that a Control set. But the Control sets might need some tweaking so they are not left in the dust with the sets that have  -End and -Rec components.

[Griffyn]

On 11/11/2021 at 10:47 PM, Replacement said:

 

It's never been true that AVs (or mobs in general) "cheat" and use powers regardless of endurance, but I'm quickly realizing their endurance costs are rampant amounts of bull shit.

 

Powerhouse, plz!

And that's just one of the issues with the current End Drain mechanics inherited from live. If you can't get the AV to zero End *and* keep them there all the time, then they will be able to fire off many of their attacks due to the low End Costs and extremely high base recovery.

[Koopak]

14 hours ago, Griffyn said:

@Koopak But on point 2 it's not one or the other. Not only will they have free use of low End powers, the GMs will have a 50% Recovery Floor which will allow them to constantly regain End as well.

Yes that's more or less my point with that comment. I feel, personally, that playing with the recovery floor is a more practical solution than adding the end rule.

When a mob gets a recovery tick they can activate a power instantly, so for instance if you gave them a recovery floor that equals about 10 end per tick, then they can still use powers blow 10 end even while being actively sapped, but will be locked to the recovery tick rate. Doing that would help settle outliers like Chimera by allowing them to attack only once per recovery tick rather than maintaining a fully attack chain.

I do agree that regardless of the changes made here, AV end costs need a balancing pass. The reason I suggest trying to find a solution with these rules is because it took me something like an hour and a half just to list all the basic, non going rogue, versions of the Praetorian AVs. I can think of well over 20 more AVs that I have not found the time to expand upon here do to things outside the game. I don't feel that revamping end costs of dozens and dozens of AVs each with semi unique designs is a practical work load, and is likely part of why EndDrain as a mechanic has been held back for so long.

The original devs seemed to lack any kind of guiding formula for end values on enemies, and if HC doesn't have one, I feel like asking them to revise all AVs and GMs to solve this will require them to develop one, apply it to over a decade of legacy content, and then and only then would it become a part of normal, basic development. If the HC team is up to that, the massive amount of work, and the lack of appreciation they will get for it, then more power to them. As it is though there's a lot of other things to address, so id like to find a rule set for this that allows AVs and GMs to not be sapped into uselessness, but not leave several AVs with the ability to ignore the mechanic whole sale and others to be helpless to it.

At the very least the blue pajama ninja man should not be all but immune to it imo 😅

[KeepDistance]

On 11/2/2021 at 4:00 PM, Booper said:

• • Positron Cell: Ranged, Light DMG(Energy), Foe Hold, -Def

 

 

Are there other villain groups that have minions with hold powers? I can't think of one offhand. I thought holds were generally reserved for lieutenant and higher ranks.