PeregrineFalcon Posted November 17, 2021 Posted November 17, 2021 3 minutes ago, GraspingVileTerror said: I concur that the proposed change gives the message (intentional or not) that new players and low level characters do not deserve equal consideration as level 50s. This sentiment has been an undercurrent in some other design choices in the past, but it's especially flagrant here. I agree with you on this. This also seemed to be the driving force behind the change/nerf to Rune of Protection. The devs flat out said that they didn't like low level characters having permanent mez protection. The devs have said that they aren't going to raise the minimum difficulty, so those people who want easy mode will still have it, but they kinda are increasing it with these changes. And the devs are obviously focused on making content more challenging for Incarnates. Being constantly offended doesn't mean you're right, it means you're too narcissistic to tolerate opinions different than your own.
PeregrineFalcon Posted November 17, 2021 Posted November 17, 2021 5 minutes ago, arcane said: Not a very useful set of definitions to apply to a game. So first you ask me to define a common word, that you should already know the definition of, and then you criticize the dictionary definition and criticize me by calling me a "clueless loon." Yeah. We clearly can't have a meaningful discussion on this no matter which definition we agree upon. Being constantly offended doesn't mean you're right, it means you're too narcissistic to tolerate opinions different than your own.
arcane Posted November 17, 2021 Posted November 17, 2021 Just now, PeregrineFalcon said: So first you ask me to define a common word, that you should already know the definition of, and then you criticize the dictionary definition and criticize me by calling me a "clueless loon." Yeah. We clearly can't have a meaningful discussion on this no matter which definition we agree upon. I didn’t call you a clueless loon man. Only the people who have literally dogmatically claimed nerfs should never happen. I’m unaware of you saying anything that stupid, but feel free to correct me if you really want to...
Wavicle Posted November 17, 2021 Posted November 17, 2021 The more I think about it, the more I am pretty OK with the Amplifiers change. The only suggestion I have is maybe it would be ok at 1.5 or 2 million instead of 2.5. Wavicle's Guide To What Really Matters: What Needs To Be Done On Every Toon
Glacier Peak Posted November 17, 2021 Posted November 17, 2021 1 hour ago, Wavicle said: It may not be the stated reason, but it’s the real effect. Frankly, I don’t understand the reasoning at all. Who was using these things, then going into an event that didn’t allow temps and complaining about it? A real effect? That is arguable since these changes haven't been ported to the live servers. If anything, that is supposition and it may be a potential outcome for the players who have expressed that feedback in this thread. I lead weekly Indom Badge Runs / A newer giant monster guide by Glacier Peak / A tour of Pocket D easter eggs! / Arena All-Star Accolade Guide! Best Post Ever....
Glacier Peak Posted November 17, 2021 Posted November 17, 2021 1 hour ago, PeregrineFalcon said: It's not "how some players take it." It's that regardless of the stated reason for this change, this is the factual effect that it will have. As a rule I'm always against "fixing" stuff that ain't broken. This isn't broken so I don't understand why the devs are spending the time and effort to suddenly "fix" something that ain't broken. One of a two sided coin where players have expressed both satisfaction with and dissatisfaction with. Just because you see it as not broken, doesn't mean the Homecoming Team agrees, which is why we are seeing this change on the beta shard. 1 I lead weekly Indom Badge Runs / A newer giant monster guide by Glacier Peak / A tour of Pocket D easter eggs! / Arena All-Star Accolade Guide! Best Post Ever....
Wavicle Posted November 17, 2021 Posted November 17, 2021 2 minutes ago, Glacier Peak said: A real effect? That is arguable since these changes haven't been ported to the live servers. If anything, that is supposition and it may be a potential outcome for the players who have expressed that feedback in this thread. Yeah, after sleeping on it I changed my mind. I do think the cost is still a little bit high, maybe 1.5 or 2 would be enough? Wavicle's Guide To What Really Matters: What Needs To Be Done On Every Toon
Glacier Peak Posted November 17, 2021 Posted November 17, 2021 11 minutes ago, Wavicle said: The more I think about it, the more I am pretty OK with the Amplifiers change. The only suggestion I have is maybe it would be ok at 1.5 or 2 million instead of 2.5. This is interesting, if I could ask why you are okay with the change and why the suggested change from 2.5 to 1.5? Not attacking, just generally interested in the feedback as a fellow player! I lead weekly Indom Badge Runs / A newer giant monster guide by Glacier Peak / A tour of Pocket D easter eggs! / Arena All-Star Accolade Guide! Best Post Ever....
Wavicle Posted November 17, 2021 Posted November 17, 2021 (edited) 19 minutes ago, Glacier Peak said: This is interesting, if I could ask why you are okay with the change and why the suggested change from 2.5 to 1.5? Not attacking, just generally interested in the feedback as a fellow player! Fundamentally I am ok with the change because with SOs at level 2 and the ease of using Merits to get inf the "low level woes" aren't really a thing anymore. The amplifiers exacerbate the balance problems the game has already. The suggested price reduction is based on the idea that if someone does still want to do this, at a cost of 2.5 million it comes to 60 million for 8 hours of all three amps. To me that feels like a little beyond what is reasonable, compared to other P2W items. 2 million would come to 48 million for 8 hours of all 3. 1.5 comes to 36 total. Those numbers seem more reasonable to me. I think somewhere between 1 million and 2 million is fine. 2.5 seems a little high. Edited November 17, 2021 by Wavicle 1 Wavicle's Guide To What Really Matters: What Needs To Be Done On Every Toon
Sovera Posted November 17, 2021 Posted November 17, 2021 I'm not super super fussed with the amplifier change because if we are on a full team it does not matter a lot. Solo, yeah, new players go royally shafted. I STILL don't understand WHY though. The idea seems to be that players can easily stop the timer and only resume its use when desired. But, again, it's not a command. It's a difficulty option in a TF. So how, exactly, are players going to abuse this? By starting a solo TF with that option toggled on? And then what? Never again team or do any other TF so that they don't leave that solo-started-TF which otherwise will make the amplifiers tick down? If indeed it is a command like /stoprunningamplifiers then yeah, I can see the abuse. - Simple guide for newcomers. - Money making included among other things. - Tanker Fire Armor: the Turtle, the Allrounder, the Dragon, and compilation of Fire Armor builds. - Tanker Stone Armor: beginner friendly (near) immortal Tanker for leveling/end-game and Stone Armor framework. - Brute Rad/Stone and compilation of Brute Stone Armor builds.
GraspingVileTerror Posted November 17, 2021 Posted November 17, 2021 I believe the issue, @Sovera, that is -trying- to be addressed with this kludge is that a player could make a new character, purchase a full 8 hours in each of the Amplifiers for 24,000 Inf, turn on their Self-Suppression Toggle, sit in an AE and level up to 50, and then reap the benefits of the Amplifiers for less than the intended cost. Honestly, that seems like a lot more work than it's worth for such a monumentally small benefit at level 50. Meanwhile, players at low levels who truly benefit from the Amplifiers will see that reasonable price being taken away from them. 5
Sovera Posted November 17, 2021 Posted November 17, 2021 Just now, GraspingVileTerror said: I believe the issue, @Sovera, that is -trying- to be addressed with this kludge is that a player could make a new character, purchase a full 8 hours in each of the Amplifiers for 24,000 Inf, turn on their Self-Suppression Toggle, sit in an AE and level up to 50, and then reap the benefits of the Amplifiers for less than the intended cost. Honestly, that seems like a lot more work than it's worth for such a monumentally small benefit at level 50. Meanwhile, players at low levels who truly benefit from the Amplifiers will see that reasonable price being taken away from them. Yeah, I got that and mentioned it in my previous posts. I don't see people leveling a character from scratch, respecing, reslotting, probably hunting accolades (but probably skipping that if it's just a throw away character), only to save... how much was it for a full 8 hours of all three? 60-62 million? I'm not going to say that 60-62 million is peanuts, but someone leveling an alt via power leveling for the purpose -will- have earned 60 mill in raw inf. I sound too much like a clever fellow trying to push it so I can continue abusing the power, but really, no. Don't use amplifiers other than on my newbies who can -really- make use of it by pushing the difficulty up in a moment of their lives they have no slots and no IOs bonuses. - Simple guide for newcomers. - Money making included among other things. - Tanker Fire Armor: the Turtle, the Allrounder, the Dragon, and compilation of Fire Armor builds. - Tanker Stone Armor: beginner friendly (near) immortal Tanker for leveling/end-game and Stone Armor framework. - Brute Rad/Stone and compilation of Brute Stone Armor builds.
Wavicle Posted November 17, 2021 Posted November 17, 2021 3 minutes ago, GraspingVileTerror said: Meanwhile, players at low levels who truly benefit from the Amplifiers will see that reasonable price being taken away from them. It seems to me the change carries with it a clear implication that the current prices at the lowest levels are being considered unreasonably LOW. 1 Wavicle's Guide To What Really Matters: What Needs To Be Done On Every Toon
GraspingVileTerror Posted November 17, 2021 Posted November 17, 2021 If the overall pricing is too low, then why set it to the value of level 50, but for all levels? That puts it completely out of reach of players who aren't already at 50 or using alternative Inf-streams.
Glacier Peak Posted November 17, 2021 Posted November 17, 2021 1 minute ago, GraspingVileTerror said: If the overall pricing is too low, then why set it to the value of level 50, but for all levels? That puts it completely out of reach of players who aren't already at 50 or using alternative Inf-streams. These boosts were originally implemented for the purpose of making more money in this game. They were made as accessible as possible so that they could generate revenue. At the time and to this day they continue to be very powerful boosts which provide a great deal of benefit to the player who chooses to purchase them (with influence this time). The commodity hasn't changed, the perception of its value has. If you believe the value correction is not satisfactory, what would you say you'd be willing to pay for them? How would you recommend that the HC Team balance the use of these amplifiers, considering their power? I lead weekly Indom Badge Runs / A newer giant monster guide by Glacier Peak / A tour of Pocket D easter eggs! / Arena All-Star Accolade Guide! Best Post Ever....
Glacier Peak Posted November 17, 2021 Posted November 17, 2021 5 minutes ago, Krimson said: The existence of affordable amplifiers makes it way more likely to Level socially with other people, rather than pulling out a farmer and getting the deed done in two hours. I don't have any evidence to suggest otherwise, but I am still curious how you came to this conclusion. I am all for improving the community and providing a welcoming place for newer players. I don't think Amplifiers are the best way to introduce new players to how the game is, unfortunately, unbalanced in many ways (at least ways that can be taken advantage of or used to achieve a reward with less risk than was intended when it was designed). I lead weekly Indom Badge Runs / A newer giant monster guide by Glacier Peak / A tour of Pocket D easter eggs! / Arena All-Star Accolade Guide! Best Post Ever....
GraspingVileTerror Posted November 17, 2021 Posted November 17, 2021 The value of Inf I would place on them for my personal use is skewed from my long-time experience as a player. However, the value of the Amplifiers as -accessibility tools- to new players is monumental and I believe it justifies their inexpensive nature at low levels, as I detailed in my first post in this thread today. I also made suggestions as to how else to approach the issue in that same post. https://forums.homecomingservers.com/topic/32395-general-feedback-issue-27-page-3/page/7/#comment-417210 1
Wavicle Posted November 17, 2021 Posted November 17, 2021 4 minutes ago, Glacier Peak said: I don't have any evidence to suggest otherwise, but I am still curious how you came to this conclusion. Through the Quantum Realm. 2 1 Wavicle's Guide To What Really Matters: What Needs To Be Done On Every Toon
Riverdusk Posted November 17, 2021 Posted November 17, 2021 22 minutes ago, GraspingVileTerror said: I believe the issue, @Sovera, that is -trying- to be addressed with this kludge is that a player could make a new character, purchase a full 8 hours in each of the Amplifiers for 24,000 Inf, turn on their Self-Suppression Toggle, sit in an AE and level up to 50, and then reap the benefits of the Amplifiers for less than the intended cost. Honestly, that seems like a lot more work than it's worth for such a monumentally small benefit at level 50. Meanwhile, players at low levels who truly benefit from the Amplifiers will see that reasonable price being taken away from them. If that is the real reasoning then I find it egregious on two fronts. One, it is a change made due to powerlevelers/farmers which hurts those of us that don't do that much more than the powergamers themselves. Two, it ironically encourages more powerleveling/farming in order to afford/ignore the raised prices for pre level 50's. 2
Wavicle Posted November 17, 2021 Posted November 17, 2021 If one thinks of this as a compromise position between leaving things as they are and eliminating amplifiers from the game entirely then it seems pretty reasonable. In fact, if we compare to the OTHER source of Amplifiers, Super Packs, the price seems pretty close to right on, if perhaps just a Little bit high. Wavicle's Guide To What Really Matters: What Needs To Be Done On Every Toon
Vanden Posted November 17, 2021 Posted November 17, 2021 34 minutes ago, Sovera said: Solo, yeah, new players go royally shafted. New players can't afford Amplifiers even on live. The only way they could possibly scrape together enough inf is with marketeering tactics they are absolutely not going to know. A Cheat Sheet for efficient Endurance Recovery slotting Invention Set Designer Tool Spreadsheet with every Ancillary Power Pool
arcane Posted November 17, 2021 Posted November 17, 2021 Riddle me skeptical that a substantial amount of people even exist who both (1) have zero 50’s and (2) know amplifiers exist.
GraspingVileTerror Posted November 17, 2021 Posted November 17, 2021 I make a point of informing new players about P2W Vendors, as it's an excellent source of assistance when they might be struggling. 1
Riverdusk Posted November 17, 2021 Posted November 17, 2021 2 minutes ago, Vanden said: New players can't afford Amplifiers even on live. The only way they could possibly scrape together enough inf is with marketeering tactics they are absolutely not going to know. Run the tutorial, sell the two big inspirations you get for free on the AH, and you are pretty much on the way to the whole 24,000 inf you need at level 1. At the least you'll tend to get the 8k you need for 8 hours of the most important amp (the defensive one). I'd hardly call that a marketeering tactic. You basically just have to know the AH exists. Someone absolutely new to the game maybe wouldn't know, but it hardly takes long to learn /ah or to get together enough inf at low levels to afford them.
GraspingVileTerror Posted November 17, 2021 Posted November 17, 2021 Hell, with the changes to SO availability, 24,000 or even 200,000 isn't unobtainable. And let's expose another element of this: Donations from veterans to new players. Used to be that 1,000,000 to 50,000,000 was more than enough to give a new player a terrific head start. Now I've got to decide between giving a new player 200,000,000 or more to get them to that same place, or cut back on my assistance to these players? Doesn't feel too good to me.
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