Sweeping defense changes

[Rudra]

Hells, the OP itself invalidates most of the arguments in its favor. You want to play fully buffed out and be challenged. Nothing wrong with that. Ask the devs for more content to do so. The entire thread is about NOT playing fully buffed out and still soloing +4/x8. So as I said a few times, play according to the OP if you think the game is too easy by the OPs stated standards. But for the love of everything you may hold dear, please do not ruin the game for those of us that honestly cannot keep up with the rest of you.

[arcane]

20 minutes ago, Ignatz the Insane said:

Just want to emphasize this as perhaps it's getting lost in the current conversation.   Arcane isn't some Greek God of Gaming cuz he can solo a +4x8 with an Ice Controller.  He can because he has lores, a giant nuke, defensive buffs, mez protection buffs, recharge buffs, end buffs, etc from Incarnates.  And yea, sure, a bunch of procs.  

 

Edit: Not to mention unlimited inspirations.

And I like it that way dammit. If I have to gut my character of all the things that make it fun to build etc... well I’m just not going to do that ever because it’s a ludicrous suggestion.

Again... and I’ve said this surely a hundred times on this forum in the pasr year... playing maxed out characters and having engaging and challenging content are not mutually exclusive things. Any post that pretends they are must immediately be regarded as illogical.

 

Btw you say “and yea, sure, a bunch of procs” like it’s a relatively small piece of the puzzle. But considering I don’t have Fire Ball or Psi Tornado or anything, I would have nearly zero DPS on that character without damage procs (and yes Judgement). Considering Jack is dead half the time at that difficulty, the only thing I have left is literally Block of Ice / Frostbite base damage. So yeah, basically nothing without procs.

Edited January 20, 2022 by arcane

[Rudra]

8 minutes ago, arcane said:

And I like it that way dammit. If I have to gut my character of all the things that make it fun to build etc... well I’m just not going to do that ever because it’s a ludicrous suggestion.

Again... and I’ve said this surely a hundred times on this forum in the pasr year... playing maxed out characters and having engaging and challenging content are not mutually exclusive things. Any post that pretends they are must immediately be regarded as illogical.

 

Btw you say “and yea, sure, a bunch of procs” like it’s a relatively small piece of the puzzle. But considering I don’t have Fire Ball or Psi Tornado or anything, I would have nearly zero DPS on that character without damage procs (and yes Judgement).

You're trolling me, aren't you? The OP is about not having any of that. The OP is about changing the game to be more difficult because without any IOs or incarnate powers, any character from any AT using any powers can easily solo +4/x8. I apologize for the emphasis, but you keep skipping around it. If you want more challenging content, please start a new thread. This thread is about changing the entire game to make it more difficult because with a gutted character someone says (s)he can solo +4/x8 regardless of power choices and AT.

Edited January 20, 2022 by Rudra
Edited to actually make sense.

[arcane]

8 minutes ago, Rudra said:

You're trolling me, aren't you? The OP is about not having any of that. The OP is about changing the game to be more difficult because without any IOs or incarnate powers, any character from any AT using any powers can easily solo +4/x8. I apologize for the emphasis, but you keep skipping around it. If you want more challenging content, please start a new thread. This thread is about changing the entire game to make it more difficult because with a gutted character someone says (s)he can solo +4/x8 regardless of power choices and AT.

I am allowed to respond to posts in the thread that aren’t the original post. Notice you and I are able to quote each other and not just the OP. Obviously I am not concerned about the context of the OP because I am replying to points raised by others and not the OP. You keep trying to bring the OP in where I regard it is irrelevant because that’s not who I’m replying to and I don’t care.

 

Call me off-topic all you want. My posts are relevant to ideas brought up in the thread even if not by the OP, so maybe don’t bring up those ideas if you don’t want them talked about?

Edited January 20, 2022 by arcane

[Rudra]

2 minutes ago, arcane said:

I am allowed to respond to posts in the thread that aren’t the original post. Notice you and I are able to quote each other and not just the OP. Obviously I am not concerned about the context of the OP because I am replying to points raised by others and not the OP. You keep trying to bring the OP in where I regard it is irrelevant because that’s not who I’m replying to and I don’t care.

 

Call me off-topic all you want. My posts are relevant to ideas brought up in the thread even if not by the OP, so maybe don’t bring up those ideas if you don’t want them talked about?

Forum guide requests we stay on topic of the OP. The other points should have their own thread. If this is no longer the case and this is a new thread buried in an old one, and you are debating a different topic than the one I believed, then I am dropping out of the discussion. Apparently we are arguing different things.

[MoonSheep]

16 minutes ago, Rudra said:

You're trolling me, aren't you? The OP is about not having any of that. The OP is about changing the game to be more difficult because without any IOs or incarnate powers, any character from any AT using any powers can easily solo +4/x8. I apologize for the emphasis, but you keep skipping around it. If you want more challenging content, please start a new thread. This thread is about changing the entire game to make it more difficult because with a gutted character someone says (s)he can solo +4/x8 regardless of power choices and AT.

 

i’m not sure if i’m able to find the post about soloing content unslotted but i do agree with the poster that game content is rather easy. generally any PuG of 8 going can easily sweep through +4/x8 content with little to no differences between what each AT is capable of

 

i think bringing further challenge to the game is a great idea. i have enjoyed the aeon SF on relentless and regularly run TFs on enemies buffed. whilst significantly nerfing defence may not be the best way to introduce challenge there are certainly more palatable changes available to increase challenge for those who want it, without interfering too much with casual players

 

e.g i think AV damage should be increased 50% across the board along with a to-hit increase to make fighting them more of an event. 

 

mechanisms to encourage debuffs/buffs would also be nice 

[arcane]

2 minutes ago, Rudra said:

Forum guide requests we stay on topic of the OP. The other points should have their own thread. If this is no longer the case and this is a new thread buried in an old one, and you are debating a different topic than the one I believed, then I am dropping out of the discussion. Apparently we are arguing different things.

Yes, that is the case. I, for one, find it unreasonable to suggest people should never reply to others within a thread without drawing everything towards some grand conclusion about the original post, so I do not post that way. If I take issue with a post or have something to contribute related to a post... I post. The GM’s are free to clean up threads as they see fit, but I don’t see “hey I have something to say to a post right here in this thread but I’d better muzzle myself because no discussion is better than slightly off-topic discussion” as a very useful approach to discourse.

[Luminara]

"This game is too easy!"
"Stop using Incarnate powers."
"I don't want to."

"Stop using e-mailed inspirations."
"I don't want to."
"Use SOs instead of IO sets."
"I don't want to."

"Fight some of the harder enemies, instead of easy enemies."

"I don't want to."
"Wait a few months for the enhanced challenge modes to be used on more content."
"I don't want to."

"Um... maybe try a build without Weave, Stealth and Maneuvers?"
"I don't want to."
"What do you want?"
"I want all of those things taken away so I don't have to use them and the game will be harder."

"..."

[arcane]

39 minutes ago, Luminara said:

"This game is too easy!"
"Stop using Incarnate powers."
"I don't want to."
"Use SOs instead of IO sets."
"I don't want to."

Name me one other game where conventional wisdom is that having maxed out characters and finding the game challenging are regarded as mutually exclusive. You're misrepresenting me and you’re misrepresenting how video games work. Well, a little later on in the post you’re just flat out lying, but I’ll ignore those parts. 

EDIT: I altered the quoted post so it actually reflects things I have ever said I don’t want to do. Most of the bullet points were just blatant lies if you are attributing those positions to me, so deleted them for clarity.

Edited January 20, 2022 by arcane

[Bill Z Bubba]

14 minutes ago, arcane said:

Name me one other game where conventional wisdom is that having maxed out characters and finding the game challenging are regarded as mutually exclusive. You're misrepresenting me and you’re misrepresenting how video games work. Well, a little later on in the post you’re just flat out lying, but I’ll ignore those parts. 

EDIT: I altered the quoted post so it actually reflects things I have ever said I don’t want to do. Most of the bullet points were just blatant lies if you are attributing those positions to me, so deleted them for clarity.

 

Ya know, it my be possible that her post was simply after yours, and since not directly quoting you, may indeed simply be a round up of all the things heard in these types of threads.

[TheZag]

Beee do beee do beee do

 

 

crisis averted.  Please continue.

[Gobbledigook]

I would remove stacking DDR on Shield defence though lol....there i said it, now i am going to hide 😛

 

Oh and i would split the Might of the Tanker proc to 50/50 def and resistance rather than just +resistance. It favours defence sets too much. but that is a different topic lol.

Edited January 20, 2022 by Gobbledegook

[PeregrineFalcon]

36 minutes ago, arcane said:

Name me one other game where conventional wisdom is that having maxed out characters and finding the game challenging are regarded as mutually exclusive.

@arcane Listen. I understand your point of view. Telling players to stop using the uber purple gear is not the correct response to the statement "The devs should balance the game properly."

 

However, the devs are in the process of balancing the game. They've added the new difficulty levels, along with improved rewards, and they've already said that they're planning on adding the new difficulty level to a lot more content. (I want to say they said that they're going to add it to all level 50 content, but don't quote me on that. It's too early and my memory's probably wrong. Need more coffee!) So once they get the new difficulty system proliferated then people will be able to up the challenge.

 

 Until that process is complete, there's nothing that can be done to increase the difficulty except to NOT play uber munchkined IO'd Incarnate Demi-Gods. It's not the best solution, but it's a solution, and it's the only one that we the players can offer right now.

 

Also, trying to get defense caps and/or IOs nerfed while the developers are in the process of proliferating a system that will require a massive investment into IOs and Incarnate abilities just to survive, is utterly ludicrous.

[Myrmidon]

9 hours ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

 

And it worked, mostly, with SOs. Only softcapped blasters back then happened if they had multiple buffers. Then the devs broke it with inventions. Again, the system is fine. Being able to softcap a squishy solo (and extrapolating that to how stupid we can get our melee characters) is the problem. Therefore, inventions are the problem. Nerf set bonuses into the dirt if you want to fix it.

 

Ok, I need a young priest and an old priest for the exorcism that appears to be needed today.

[Wavicle]

The devs have solved the challenge problem by creating more challenging content, and I assume they will continue to do so. This issue is settled to my satisfaction.

[Haijinx]

11 hours ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

 

And it worked, mostly, with SOs. Only softcapped blasters back then happened if they had multiple buffers. Then the devs broke it with inventions. Again, the system is fine. Being able to softcap a squishy solo (and extrapolating that to how stupid we can get our melee characters) is the problem. Therefore, inventions are the problem. Nerf set bonuses into the dirt if you want to fix it.

 

True.  IOs definitely are the problem with the game system as designed.  Its the Munchkin syndrome.  They handed out Hackmaster +12's to everyone. 

 

The problem is IOs are also the only thing that makes building characters interesting in COX (outside of a RP context).

 

[Haijinx]

1 hour ago, Wavicle said:

The devs have solved the challenge problem by creating more challenging content, and I assume they will continue to do so. This issue is settled to my satisfaction.

 

Except that they didn't.  Not really.   

 

Besides it can't solve the mechanical problem.  There isn't enough granularity availible. 

[PeregrineFalcon]

19 minutes ago, Haijinx said:

Except that they didn't.  Not really.   

 

Besides it can't solve the mechanical problem.  There isn't enough granularity availible. 

From the patch notes:

 

On 11/26/2021 at 5:21 AM, The Curator said:

Advanced Difficulty Options [Focused Feedback: Advanced Difficulty Options and Challenge Mode]

With the release of the Dr. Aeon Strike Force, we’ve completely rewritten the challenge settings code and greatly expanded what we can do with future content in terms of accommodating difficulty options and delivering curated challenges to players seeking that type of gameplay experience.

 

These optional difficulty settings are accessed from the Challenge Settings menu for content that has been added to the feature (as of Page 3 this will only include the Dr. Aeon Strike Force). These options require being level 50 to select and change the content in various ways. These new difficulty modes were hand-crafted and balanced, and are not based on the previous Challenge Settings that exist currently.

Ok, see that part that I bolded and underlined?

 

The developers are in the process of either adding more content which uses the new difficulty options, or adding the difficulty options to existing content, or both.

 

This new difficult content requires defenses and IO sets and Incarnate abilities just to survive this content. Asking for nerfs to defenses and IOs right now, while the developers are in the process of addressing this issue, just makes no sense.

 

Why don't you all wait until the developers have proliferated this new difficulty setting to more content before you claim the game is too easy and defense and/or IOs need to be nerfed? Maybe once these settings are more widespread in game you won't think that the game is so easy.

 

Unless of course you decide to not play with the new settings on, in which case the problem won't be with defense and/or IOs.

[Haijinx]

1 hour ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

From the patch notes:

 

Ok, see that part that I bolded and underlined?

 

The developers are in the process of either adding more content which uses the new difficulty options, or adding the difficulty options to existing content, or both.

 

This new difficult content requires defenses and IO sets and Incarnate abilities just to survive this content. Asking for nerfs to defenses and IOs right now, while the developers are in the process of addressing this issue, just makes no sense.

 

Why don't you all wait until the developers have proliferated this new difficulty setting to more content before you claim the game is too easy and defense and/or IOs need to be nerfed? Maybe once these settings are more widespread in game you won't think that the game is so easy.

 

Unless of course you decide to not play with the new settings on, in which case the problem won't be with defense and/or IOs.

 

Please stop editorializing my supposed calls for nerfs.  

 

My point is the new challenge effort has not "solved" the game balance issue.  

 

Becuase its inherently unsolvable.  It was unsolvable 20 years before COX came out.  They arent't going to magically solve it now.  Its a game mechanics issue.   

 

The only times they tried to actually gate the system ED and the GDN, it was extremely unpopular. 

 

I want no nerfs.  I want no changes to the core mechanics either.  I dont even care about difficulty anymore.

 

Without IOs the game is too boring.  COX is too old for a different system. 

 

 But, if Im playing in a munchkin campaign,  I don't need to pretend its not one. 

Edited January 21, 2022 by Haijinx
My phone is so old it stopped red underlining my massive typos.

[Aurora_Girl]

So you think game balance is a completely unsolvable inherent problem to the concept of gaming itsdlf?

That seems. A wee hyperbolic. 

[Outrider_01]

stop making super man builds, its not mandatory.  Set yourself up a challenge to make intentionally weaker characters,  I started a personal project to make 3rd stringers who are effective at their job or different.  Instead of Batman level, aim for Superman or Flash....I set mine for Booster Gold comedy sidekick level.

[ninja surprise]

I skipped a few pages so I'm catching up:

Are we implementing defense to sweeping attacks?  I haven't seen Sweeping as a typed defense, do the new enemies in Aeon's SF have Sweeping attacks?

 

  

On 1/19/2022 at 6:55 AM, Sirius.Games said:

2. Remove dual type defenses

AoE becomes its own type exclusively, no more AoE+Melee/range. This means standing in a pile in the middle of enemies becomes more dangerous. It also makes AoE more dangerous as it is the most ignored defense type. Enemies with AoE become much more dangerous.

 

Just in case that wasn't clarified - in IO set types there's Melee AoE and Ranged AoE, but for defense the attacks are purely AoE. 

 

It'd be weird to remove typed defense. Then would the armors Willpower, Stone, Invulnerability, Ice, Energy and Bio just not have any defense? Very strange idea.

Edited January 21, 2022 by ninja surprise
Added more info

[Ghost]

6 hours ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

From the patch notes:

 

Ok, see that part that I bolded and underlined?

 

The developers are in the process of either adding more content which uses the new difficulty options, or adding the difficulty options to existing content, or both.

 

This new difficult content requires defenses and IO sets and Incarnate abilities just to survive this content. Asking for nerfs to defenses and IOs right now, while the developers are in the process of addressing this issue, just makes no sense.

 

Why don't you all wait until the developers have proliferated this new difficulty setting to more content before you claim the game is too easy and defense and/or IOs need to be nerfed? Maybe once these settings are more widespread in game you won't think that the game is so easy.

 

Unless of course you decide to not play with the new settings on, in which case the problem won't be with defense and/or IOs.

You are ruining everything!

Don’t you get it?

 If the devs nerf defense, and then release the new content - we will be treated to new threads begging for the difficulty to be turned down and defenses cranked up.

[Haijinx]

8 hours ago, Aurora_Girl said:

So you think game balance is a completely unsolvable inherent problem to the concept of gaming itsdlf?

That seems. A wee hyperbolic. 

 

No.  I'm saying that COX is essentially based on Dungeons and Dragons.  A really basic system from the 70s.  

 

Dungeons and Dragons balance counted on the DM to gate the system without mercy.  DMs that didn't ended up with situations where the players were nigh unkillable gawds that could curbstomp anything.  

 

The original purpose of S1/The Tomb of Horrors was to perma-kill off the entire party and take all their stuff. It was literally an attempt to solve the same problem we have in COX.

 

These big challenge settings the devs are coming up with are attempts to come up with more content that feels challenging.  And it will to an extent depending on team composition. 

 

But if the problem were "solved" all your content would work again.  And of course thats not going to happen.

 

There are other ways to make games.  Some easier to balance than the "Roll a 20 sider and see what you get..."   A lot kind of suck for tabletop, because of all the math though ...   you basically  need a computer.  HEH.  

 

But this is the one we have.  They aren't going to change the mechanics now.

 

 

Edited January 21, 2022 by Haijinx

[Aurora_Girl]

2 hours ago, Haijinx said:

 

No.  I'm saying that COX is essentially based on Dungeons and Dragons.  A really basic system from the 70s.  

 

Dungeons and Dragons balance counted on the DM to gate the system without mercy.  DMs that didn't ended up with situations where the players were nigh unkillable gawds that could curbstomp anything.  

 

The original purpose of S1/The Tomb of Horrors was to perma-kill off the entire party and take all their stuff. It was literally an attempt to solve the same problem we have in COX.

 

These big challenge settings the devs are coming up with are attempts to come up with more content that feels challenging.  And it will to an extent depending on team composition. 

 

But if the problem were "solved" all your content would work again.  And of course thats not going to happen.

 

There are other ways to make games.  Some easier to balance than the "Roll a 20 sider and see what you get..."   A lot kind of suck for tabletop, because of all the math though ...   you basically  need a computer.  HEH.  

 

But this is the one we have.  They aren't going to change the mechanics now.

 

 

 

What is this "Dungeoness and Dragonfly's" you speak of? I is only a wee baby child and have never heard of a dee-twenty man. 

 

🧐

 

How exactly was adding challenge difficulty to *one* piece of content supposed to "fix" all the rest of it, exactly?