I have a question about CoH culture.

[MoonSheep]

i find LFG is pretty good for most things - i’m a european player so if there‘s an event i want to play that’s less popular (ASF etc) i’ll wait until friday or saturday evening when i know there will be a large playerbase 

 

in-game voice would be a nice feature but i’m not sure if it would break the CoH ‘feel’

[nihilii]

We've seen this topic rear its head over the years in different forms. I think the posters who assume Discord is for voice chat exclusively sound technically wrong but actually show great insight, in that the root desire of the OP's attitude is much like the previous incarnations of this topic ("why don't people use teamspeak" etc.): a desire for organisation.

 

The situation here is simple: CoH is an easy game.

 

Most people do not actually enjoy organisation. Or, if you wanted an alternate take, let's say the subset of people who enjoy CoH are likely to prefer more freedom and less organisation than the average MMO player.

 

So there's a fundamental mismatch with standard MMO mentality. While you can shoot for tryhard difficulty in this game too by pvping or speedrunning the hardest content, the lack of *requirement* for that will leave most players apathetic to your desires. Even just coordinating on Discord to start content is already too much friction, when we'd rather just login and play whenever we've got free time and feel like it.

 

Being a hardcore "team player" in CoH is a bit like looking for overt and external goals in Minecraft. You can approach these games like that, because they offer enough design space to be played that way; but you'll always meet some disconnect with their playerbase.

Edited May 23, 2022 by nihilii

[MoonSheep]

2 hours ago, nihilii said:

We've seen this topic rear its head over the years in different forms. I think the posters who assume Discord is for voice chat exclusively sound technically wrong but actually show great insight, in that the root desire of the OP's attitude is much like the previous incarnations of this topic ("why don't people use teamspeak" etc.): a desire for organisation.

 

The situation here is simple: CoH is an easy game.

 

Most people do not actually enjoy organisation. Or, if you wanted an alternate take, let's say the subset of people who enjoy CoH are likely to prefer more freedom and less organisation than the average MMO player.

 

So there's a fundamental mismatch with standard MMO mentality. While you can shoot for tryhard difficulty in this game too by pvping or speedrunning the hardest content, the lack of *requirement* for that will leave most players apathetic to your desires. Even just coordinating on Discord to start content is already too much friction, when we'd rather just login and play whenever we've got free time and feel like it.

 

Being a hardcore "team player" in CoH is a bit like looking for overt and external goals in Minecraft. You can approach these games like that, because they offer enough design space to be played that way; but you'll always meet some disconnect with their playerbase.

 

this is a great point - CoH is very much a “walk into town and see what’s going on” type of game rather than “prep for battle” 

[Shred Monkey]

I'm 100% behind the use of Discord to talk to team members.  I'm a member of 2 discord channels that get used quite a bit in game, though I don't use it much myself.

 

However, my personal situation is this.  I'll listen on discord, and respond to discord talk in team chat.   But I don't talk on discord.  The reason is my wife.  She already has negative feelings about me playing games with other people on the internet.  (Not nearly as much as when we were first married, but it's still there).  If she started hearing me talking to you all instead of talking to her, or my kids, that would cause a problem in my home life I'd rather avoid.  

 

That said, I do think gaming is enhanced by voice chat, and I would do it a lot if my personal situation were different.

 

 

[Bill Z Bubba]

9 minutes ago, Shred Monkey said:

However, my personal situation is this.

 

I guess I'm lucky. My wife accepted her "gamer widow" status very early in our relationship.

[Erratic1]

On 5/21/2022 at 7:49 PM, Krimson said:

I do ITFs once in a while. That is one of the few that can be done quickly enough. But I rarely see the point. Not like I will ever need Notice of the Well, and thanks to Giant Monster hunting, I never need reward merits. So if I do ITF, I join one of the themed ones. Like all VEAT or all Dominators. 

 

You don't do ITFs because you can't sit in front of a computer for that length of time but you do ITFs?

 

Yin is shorter. Hess is shorter. Posi 1 is shorter.

 

Synapse makes Odysseus' journey seem like a quick trip to the corner store, and friends will try to dissuade you from as otherwise your suffering will rival that promised by the cenobites in Hellraiser...so yeah, I can understand not doing that.

[Bionic_Flea]

On 5/20/2022 at 4:57 PM, Brawlin said:

So my question is, why is the community of CoH so close minded to better ways of forming for content? I know the community is old . . . .

 

Because I am old and close minded.

 

What server do you play on?  Some servers have higher populations than others and you might have better luck switching servers than using Discord.

 

Alternatively, you should find an SG or chat channel that uses Discord to run the content you like.   Snarky mentioned a few like Cosmic Counsel and Task Force Junkies (both on at least Excelsior.  They might be on other servers too.)

 

Once you find people that like running Relentless ASF make sure to make them global friends and either join channels they also belong to or form your own channel and invite them.

[EmperorSteele]

55 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

 

I guess I'm lucky. My wife accepted her "gamer widow" status very early in our relationship.

 

You're married to a VEAT? Lucky man!

[UltraAlt]

On 5/20/2022 at 4:57 PM, Brawlin said:

So my question is, why is the community of CoH so close minded to better ways of forming for content? I know the community is old but I feel like when you have tools like discord that give you access to 1000's of people who are interested in playing CoH and then not use it and instead use the LFG channel which is just straight up worse since people have to be at their computer, online, doing nothing, looking at chat and want to do your content.

 

This is pretty negative from the get go.

 

Honestly, I'm not sitting at my computer doing nothing if I'm waiting to see something drop in LFG that I want to join.

And if I am recruiting, I have already done a search to see if I think there are enough players online that might want to join whatever content that I'm looking to recruit for.

 

I get the feeling that you don't understand or know how to use the recruiting tools in the game so you seem to be the one that is "close minded" to me.

 

I have a good friend that I have been gaming with for over ... damn ... 35 years at this point that lives out in the sticks and has the equivalent of two tin cans connected by some string for an internet connection so he can't use Discord. 

Honestly, I think TS3 (teamspeak) is a superior communication product when paired with a website ... huh, we HAVE a Homecoming website ... you posted to it! (another tool for recruiting, that you may be ignoring! Not to imply you are close-minded!)

 

There is a City of Heroes Homecoming Discord and you are more than willing to go over there to use it, but it's rude to call other people Luddites for not using it. 

 

We are not throwing wooden shoes into the Discord source code!

 

 

"A common misconception relates to the etymology of "sabotage" and how it relates to clogs (or sabatage). A popular misunderstanding is Luddites threw their wooden shoes (or sabots) into the machines to break them up. Hence. they sabotaged the machinery. However, Sabot in French not only refers to wooden clogs but also railway sleepers and in all probability disgruntled French workers in 1912 cut the railway tracks and used the sabots (sleepers) to destroy industrial equipment." -http://historyofwoodenshoes.blogspot.com/2009/05/attraction-of-wooden-shoes.html

 

 

Edited May 23, 2022 by UltraAlt

[Shred Monkey]

1 hour ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

 

I guess I'm lucky. My wife accepted her "gamer widow" status very early in our relationship.

 

In my wife's defense, when she accuses me of choosing to play a game rather then spend time with her, I can't honestly say that she's wrong in all cases.

 

 

[MoonSheep]

3 hours ago, Krimson said:

ITF is short so once in a while, I do it. Like three or four times a year. I doubt I have done more than 10 ITFs in total since Homecoming launched. 

 

an ITF a day keeps the doctor away

[tidge]

6 minutes ago, MoonSheep said:

 

an ITF a day keeps the doctor Nictus away

 

[Freedumbite]

Like others have mentioned, my "group" uses both in-game channel and discord. Discord we use to create team sign-up sheets for future SF/TFs, chat socially, share builds and information, listen to music and of course, coordinate for harder content or badge runs. If you are on Excel and enjoy speeding content, check out the Task Force Junkies. The channel is open to join, no requirements and TFJ has a VERY knowledgeable group of leads who know their stuff! ...in fact, many of them showed the CC a thing or two back in the day.

 

 

*THIS HAS BEEN A PAID ENDORSMENT FOR TASK FORCE JUNKIES*

Edited May 24, 2022 by Freedumbite

[Doomrider]

On 5/20/2022 at 1:57 PM, Brawlin said:

(So my question is, why is the community of CoH so close minded to better ways of forming for content? I know the community is old but I feel like when you have tools like discord that give you access to 1000's of people who are interested in playing CoH and then not use it and instead use the LFG channel which is just straight up worse since people have to be at their computer, online, doing nothing, looking at chat and want to do your content.

If I didn't have Discord, I probably would have stopped playing a long time ago tbh but that's not due to my LFG needs.

When HC launched, it was a great way to have one place for my small group of friends to catch up, chat and organize after the snap.
99% of that time was spent with zero VC so it's kinda funny to see people only associate Discord w/ VC.

Back on live I didn't have a family, I could have much longer play sessions so finding people while in game made sense and was really the main way to do it.
Now with a busy schedule and family, play time is much less frequent and organizing to play with others becomes a lot harder as our schedules don't sync up.
Discord definitely helps with that. I think of it more like a group chat or instant messenger for gaming.

I think there are misconceptions about Discord that run rampant on these boards. It is a great tool but it is what you make it.
Yes there will be negativity and bad actors, but these forums are not much different honestly. It's the internet, proceed with caution.

[Carnifax]

On Reunion we've lots of TFs and trials. I'll happily join discord as long as I don't have to talk.

 

Things like speedruns and itrials we tend to use it, especially badge runs. It's a useful tool for those. Regular TFs we usually don't bother

[Ukase]

So, I had to remove my entire post because either I didn't understand what the OP was trying to say - or the OP didn't say what he was trying to say very well...either way: 

Using Discord to form up for specific team events is done in my SG's discord daily. Suggest you find some like-minded folks in game, and find out when they play. 
On one hand, I can understand your willingness to log in if something is going down that you're interested in. 

What discord channels do you belong to? 

Pretty sure folks use the HC Discord to team up routinely. 
Same with a few other discords I belong to. 

As an example: Cosmic Council posts events for the week in their Discord (some content may not be visible unless you're a member). 
Here's a snippet of last week's events. I cut off who was leading as I didn't see the need to make them famous. 

 

 

Is this kind of what you were talking about? 

Edited May 24, 2022 by Ukase

[PeregrineFalcon]

Ok, so first of all I agree that using Discord as a means to find groups is not how I've ever used it, and I would not recommend it for that.

 

It's best for voice chat between friends and SG members. Quite simply the speed and ease of verbal communication over that of in-game text chat is amazing. Also, there's a lot to be said with just being able to chit-chat with the other people on your team. Being social is an ingrained part of being human. And chatting with other people that you're gaming with makes the game a more enjoyable experience for anyone who doesn't have... 'issues.'

 

 

28 minutes ago, Ukase said:

SG Leader: I can hear you breathing! OMG! Would you just stop?!
Me: No. I think I will continue to breathe.

Try one or more of:

1. Moving the mic away from your mouth.
2. Going into Discord settings and adjusting the sensitivity of your mic.
3. Activating the Push-To-Talk feature.
4. Not blaming others for your mistakes.

Other people shouldn't have to listen to you huffing and puffing into the microphone simply because you can't be bothered to operate your equipment properly. What's next? A post about how you hate driving a car because every time you change lanes without using your turn signals people get mad and yell at you?

[Bionic_Flea]

[FDR's Think Tank]

If you want to promote a Discord Channel for City of Heroes, especially a VOICE channel, I suggest you pick a server and run a "Radio Station" for that server. Everlast has a lot of Roleplayers, so you might find volunteers there. Have D.J.'s discuss in game conspiracies, play good music for adventuring to, and use the text/chat part of discord to do requests so the DJs can do Warriors style callouts and let players know a team is forming.

 

You're not going to get many people using it at first, but if you make it fun... and most importantly, make it something people can just run in the background without having to interact or talk... then you'll lower the natural suspicion Discord attracts as Unnecessary competition to the powerful in game search and communications platforms.

 

I know there are Radio stations that do just dance music and stuff for clubs and chilling out... but you want a more active Radio. Paragon News/Talk during high traffic hours... during low traffic it's Music focused with DJ narration breaks to give weather or notify people of in game events. It would be neat to hear Supergroups have members show up to talk events to boast and talk about their team vision. I don't know how far you could go with it.

 

 

But frankly, I don't even like Discord for the games that I use it for now. It's a hassle in my mind, and really shady to use. Even CoH Vets who aren't aware of controversy behind it will ask "why do I need to do this as well?"

 

 

So... good luck on your endeavor, whatever you decide to do.

[PeregrineFalcon]

42 minutes ago, FDR's Think Tank said:

But frankly, I don't even like Discord for the games that I use it for now. It's a hassle in my mind, and really shady to use. Even CoH Vets who aren't aware of controversy behind it will ask "why do I need to do this as well?"

I've done some online searching and been unable to find anything about this. Could you please explain to me:

1. How is using Discord shady?
2. What controversy is behind it?
3. How is it any more of a hassle than any other program?

Thanks in advance for the info.

[LiquidBandage]

On 5/20/2022 at 1:57 PM, Brawlin said:

For context I come from more modern MMO's like swtor and wow and using discord is the norm for most harder content.
 

Every single discord I have joined has balked at the idea of using discord to organize for content. I always get the response that you should just use their in-game chat channel or the in-game LFG.
 

So players of CoH are expected to be in CoH staring at chat (or a stream of LFG chat) hoping to either find likeminded people online looking to do the same content you are doing or hoping to find people currently forming for content you are looking to do.
 

I would launch CoH if I knew that someone was running content I would like to do and everyone I have talked to makes it seem like that's a foreign idea.
 

So my question is, why is the community of CoH so close minded to better ways of forming for content? I know the community is old but I feel like when you have tools like discord that give you access to 1000's of people who are interested in playing CoH and then not use it and instead use the LFG channel which is just straight up worse since people have to be at their computer, online, doing nothing, looking at chat and want to do your content.

Quote

I was strictly talking about getting groups together for content since nearly everytime I try and get a group together for relentless vanguard ASF I get met with silence. Even simple speeds I have to spam LFG/opt-in channels to get anyone at all for a long time.

Quote

I have spent hours trying to get some content off the ground where there just isn't the interest (relentless ASF and even speed ASF). If someone is running it and I am not playing CoH I am going to miss it. When I would totally launch CoH and join them. I find myself wanting to play CoH less and less when I cant even find people for content or join people for content that I find interesting.

Quote

why is the community of CoH so close minded to better ways of forming for content?

Even simple speeds I have to spam LFG/opt-in channels to get anyone at all for a long time.

I cant even find people for content or join people for content that I find interesting.

 

I can address your quandaries from my perspective. 

There are many methods to form groups for content. One of the hallmarks of critical thought is evaluating what lead you to a certain conclusion. What is my bias? How does it affect how I look at an ecosystem? 

 

In general, I do not care for players that speed run (and/or stealth to objectives to TP everyone). Yes, it is a valid tactic and it can greatly save on time, but the people that are left behind are just superfluous baggage and it is not a fun feeling. Not all characters are geared or capable to withstand multiple aggro'd mobs (like a speed ITF) and will just faceplant. So they have to stealth or just sit at the door. So I categorically ignore any calls for speed runs. 

 

All too often I see people ask in chat channels "Is anyone running X?" because this person wants to run X content. This assumes that there is a mythical group out there, partially formed and just waiting for you to ask in an open channel to join them. No, no group is just waiting around for someone to ask to join. If you want to do X content, get a group up off the ground yourself (and it sounds like you have tried and failed before, hence the post on the forums). 

 

Part of the challenge of playing this game is tackling content with other characters that are not perfectly suited for the encounter and you find a way to adapt. Sometimes it is a non-optimal combination of AT/powerset and other times you are just under manned. Just simply overmatching content with Incarnates or purpled out enhancements can get the job done, but not everyone can do that on the character they are playing. 

 

What I would suggest is this:

Be verbose here on the forums about making runs on X content. Outline what you think would work best for how you want to approach the run (archetypes, powersets, power effects/debuffs, a certain type of Incarnate ability, etc) so people can more closely align to what you have in mind. Set up a time to do it, and be available to either make an attempt or help people learn how to tackle the content (win or lose). Be persistent, be consistent. If you build a reputation for being a leader (and not just someone that drags others through content), people in game (or wherever you congregate on Discord) will more readily heed your calls to run X content when you ask. 

 

Also, on a side note, when I log in, I spend a little time paying attention to chat (groups forming, people asking questions, etc), but once I start tackling content, I do not pay attention to chat (other than TEAM chat). So the absence of feedback when calls are made does not mean that no one is interested, they could just be otherwise occupied. (and this is where a presence on the forum or Discord would help with visibility) 

 

[Ghost]

7 hours ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

I've done some online searching and been unable to find anything about this. Could you please explain to me:

1. How is using Discord shady?
2. What controversy is behind it?
3. How is it any more of a hassle than any other program?

Thanks in advance for the info.

 

https://www.makeuseof.com/reasons-to-not-use-discord/#:~:text=1 Discord's Free Version Has Upload Limits. For,your account for any reason they see fit.

 

https://stallman.org/discord.html

 

https://cadence.moe/blog/2020-06-06-why-you-shouldnt-trust-discord

 

also found this from 2019

 

Long story. It’s the NSA’s wet dream.

Discord is filled with tracking systems which can’t be disabled. They claim they need to have these in order for some system involving push to talk to switch off if Discord detects you playing a game.

That being said, Discord can monitor every application open on your computer. This is how they show what games people are playing. It has a much more nefarious side however as this data is stored by the company, who will hold that alongside everything else you give them. Currently they’re backed by investors, but when that dries up, expect a Facebook level data auction from them. (Remember Cambridge Analytica?)

The owner of Discord is Jason Citron. He has been involved with privacy breaches in the past with his previous venture, OpenFeint. OpenFeint - Wikipedia. This involved the same pattern. Investments ended, the company switched to auctioning off the information of their users. Gamers Say OpenFeint Sold Them Out. OpenFeint was involved in lawsuits involving the Federal Trade Commission (FTC) in 2012.

If you use Discord on your phone, it may randomly lock you out until you give them your phone number. They claim this is for security and that you did something to provoke its systems, but this is unknown. The Discord subreddit is full of people who believe they have unjustly been targeted. Using a VPN will trigger this, so anonymity on Discord is one big nono! They want to store your data for when the investments slow down.

Discord is like Facebook in a lot of ways. In a way, it’s Facebook in its youth. Young Facebook got lots of investments, but as it grew and became older, the investments slowed down and Facebook had to find its own footing to increase its revenue. They became a data collection company. That’s their main purpose. Social media is just the avenue they use to collect the data of users.

For Discord, it’s the VOIP market. They offer the best service, no doubt about it, but when it comes to privacy, they’re downright awful. Your private conversations with other users are not encrypted with E2EE, which means Discord can log them, and sell your “private” topics to advertisers. They’re still in their youth, they haven’t matured yet and had to fund their own company, but let me tell you, sustaining constant investments forever won’t work. Someday they’ll move onto the next big thing. Then you’re all on your own.

[Nightmare Shaman]

I think some of this is an age issue.  This is just purely my opinion and thus subjective by design.

BUT, I think most people who started gaming before social media when simple chat was still the status quo are simply used to that style of communication and prefer it.  I tried discord and to me it's like everything else that is gen z and beyond, just piles of information, the need to know this log in for this and that log in for that, advertisements, etc.  It's basically just another annoying social media outlet.  To me, it's annoying.  To modern gamers, it's the norm and essential.  (No disrespect to Gen Z or anyone who enjoys this.)

I like using in game chat.  It's simple.  It's functional.  It doesn't require any hoopla.  And, it's reminiscent of a long lost time of the internet when everything was anonymous and it was fun to meet complete strangers whom you may or may not ever talk to again.  It's old fashioned and that's why I like it.  

[Apparition]

6 hours ago, Ghost said:

 

https://www.makeuseof.com/reasons-to-not-use-discord/#:~:text=1 Discord's Free Version Has Upload Limits. For,your account for any reason they see fit.

 

https://stallman.org/discord.html

 

https://cadence.moe/blog/2020-06-06-why-you-shouldnt-trust-discord

 

also found this from 2019

 

Long story. It’s the NSA’s wet dream.

Discord is filled with tracking systems which can’t be disabled. They claim they need to have these in order for some system involving push to talk to switch off if Discord detects you playing a game.

That being said, Discord can monitor every application open on your computer. This is how they show what games people are playing. It has a much more nefarious side however as this data is stored by the company, who will hold that alongside everything else you give them. Currently they’re backed by investors, but when that dries up, expect a Facebook level data auction from them. (Remember Cambridge Analytica?)

The owner of Discord is Jason Citron. He has been involved with privacy breaches in the past with his previous venture, OpenFeint. OpenFeint - Wikipedia. This involved the same pattern. Investments ended, the company switched to auctioning off the information of their users. Gamers Say OpenFeint Sold Them Out. OpenFeint was involved in lawsuits involving the Federal Trade Commission (FTC) in 2012.

If you use Discord on your phone, it may randomly lock you out until you give them your phone number. They claim this is for security and that you did something to provoke its systems, but this is unknown. The Discord subreddit is full of people who believe they have unjustly been targeted. Using a VPN will trigger this, so anonymity on Discord is one big nono! They want to store your data for when the investments slow down.

Discord is like Facebook in a lot of ways. In a way, it’s Facebook in its youth. Young Facebook got lots of investments, but as it grew and became older, the investments slowed down and Facebook had to find its own footing to increase its revenue. They became a data collection company. That’s their main purpose. Social media is just the avenue they use to collect the data of users.

For Discord, it’s the VOIP market. They offer the best service, no doubt about it, but when it comes to privacy, they’re downright awful. Your private conversations with other users are not encrypted with E2EE, which means Discord can log them, and sell your “private” topics to advertisers. They’re still in their youth, they haven’t matured yet and had to fund their own company, but let me tell you, sustaining constant investments forever won’t work. Someday they’ll move onto the next big thing. Then you’re all on your own.

 

 

Yep to all of that.  The problem is that I've found that the majority of people under age 40, and especially under age 35, realize all of that... and just don't care.  To them, privacy is dead.  Doesn't exist.  And they mostly refuse to use forums or other means of communication as they're considered outdated and hard to grok, so if you want to communicate with other gamers under age 35 you pretty much must use Discord.

Edited May 25, 2022 by Apparition

[High_Beam]

On 5/20/2022 at 5:23 PM, Yomo Kimyata said:

2.  I find Discord to be a disorganized piece of shit.  It's like Craig's List without anything humorous.

I couldn't agree more.

 

There is a social aspect to the game and most people when they want to be social tend to gravitate towards the mechanism that offers the most access to the most voices.  Discord has a lot of voices, no doubt but all of my memories both from back in the day live and even now come from the aspect of smashing a bad guy then seeing a friend chat up or someone make a funny comment in one of the many in-game chats and me being able to easily pause, comment or respond then get right back to smashing.  Discord is an additional tool in the tool bag.  You can use the 1/2 inch box wrench or the 1/2 inch socket of adjust the Crescent Wrench to 1/2 inch or just use pliers.