Illusion Proliferation

[Herotu]

Any chance of proliferating Illusion?

 

I know it's a Controller primary and uses pets instead of conventional controls, but I think it'd fit relatively easily into a Mastermind primary.

 

Perhaps it could be better termed as Clones ... or something else?

 

... unless, of course, there's something else being planned for Masterminds... ? 😉 I won't labour that point, but I suspect we're all thinking the same thing right now.

Edited June 23, 2022 by Herotu

[EdgeOfDreams]

All I know is that back in the day, the devs said they wouldn't port Illusion to Dominators because most of its powers wouldn't benefit from Domination.

[Outrider_01]

Illusion would make a horrible master mind set.

 

All your imaginary minions telling you what a great boss.  Your own ego is ego stroking you.  And your incompetent as a villian mastermind, since its just you.

 

Brute: What's he doing yelling at the air?

Stalker: Yeah, about that....

Corrupter: He's having a team building moment.

Dominator: *sigh* Just answer the damn question.  He's talking to himself! 

[Crasical]

Power	Level	Effect
Spectral Wounds	1	Ranged Moderate DMG(Psionic), +Special (Illusionary Damage Heal-Back)
Phantom Army	1	Summon Decoys
Blind	2	Ranged, Moderate DMG(Psionic), Foe Hold, +Special (AoE Sleep)
Reinforce Illusion	6	Ranged, Reinforce Illusion Henchmen
Flash	8	PBAoE, Foe Hold
Spectral Terror	12	Summon Spectral Terrors
	18
Phantasm	26	Summon Phantasm
Perfect Illusion	32	Ranged, Perfect Illusion Henchmen

 

[ShardWarrior]

2 hours ago, Herotu said:

Perhaps it could be better termed as Clones ... or something else?

 

Breathtaking!  I shall call them... "Mini Mes"...

 

[Peacemoon]

7 minutes ago, Crasical said:

Power	Level	Effect
Spectral Wounds	1	Ranged Moderate DMG(Psionic), +Special (Illusionary Damage Heal-Back)
Phantom Army	1	Summon Decoys
Blind	2	Ranged, Moderate DMG(Psionic), Foe Hold, +Special (AoE Sleep)
Reinforce Illusion	6	Ranged, Reinforce Illusion Henchmen
Flash	8	PBAoE, Foe Hold
Spectral Terror	12	Summon Spectral Terrors
	18
Phantasm	26	Summon Phantasm
Perfect Illusion	32	Ranged, Perfect Illusion Henchmen

 

Spectral terror would be a good level 18 power.

 

Blind would have to lose its hold, as would flash.
 

The level 12 henchman could be fun to think about.

 

Overall I agree that Illusion would make a great Mastermind set! 

 

[Ironblade]

3 hours ago, Herotu said:

 I won't labour that point, but I suspect we're all thinking the same thing right now.

I think so, but where are we going to find lederhosen at this time of night?

[Shred Monkey]

When I clicked on this thread my mind was thinking "Illusionary melee"... interesting...  like just a bunch of fake punches but never actually hitting anything or doing any real damage.   So basically Kinetic Melee.

 

 

 

Edited June 23, 2022 by Shred Monkey

[Rudra]

As much as I like the idea of a MM fielding an army of clones, illusion itself is a bad idea for MMs. It would be the only MM set that the MM cannot heal the minions (phantom army pets and spectral terror at least are not healable). It would also be the only MM set whose pets are all on a timer are and automatically disappear after a minute or two. And the only MM set where the enemies all heal the MM's inflicted injuries because none of it is real. Sure, most of its pets would be untouchable, but that is hardly a good offset for the problems having illusions as pets would cause.

 

And it goes against the idea of what a mastermind even is. You are such a great mastermind that you can't even find minions to do your bidding.

Edit: At least the bots MM has robotic servitors that could be dispatched to perform various tasks and the necromantic MM has animated corpses capable of performing various tasks as well. The illusion MM? Has to personally do everything because the illusions aren't real and so have no physical component with which to accomplish tasks. So maybe the illusion controller can convince that car it is being stolen or that money to run off or.... Nope. Makes no sense as a mastermind.

 

Make a clone MM and I'll sign on. Not an illusion one. (Or better yet, give us pet customizations and then the MM can have clones in whatever power type they want.)

Edited June 24, 2022 by Rudra

[MagicalAct]

9 hours ago, EdgeOfDreams said:

All I know is that back in the day, the devs said they wouldn't port Illusion to Dominators because most of its powers wouldn't benefit from Domination.

Ice is just as bad for that and yet we still have it for doms.

[TheZag]

Porting the current mechanics in illusion control wouldnt work well for a mastermind but the idea that a mastermind could use illusions or holograms for henchmen would work just fine.  To be honest i would probably go the hologram route so the powers that need to be reused would be fine but those that need a large change wouldnt incur the wrath of 'its not illusion'.

 

Ingame lethal holograms already exist through AE and its not a stretch that a mastermind would use them for their own benefit.

[Rudra]

Then that makes this easy. All the MM sets are holograms/illusions if the player so designates. All the AE holograms are of various members of existing factions, so the MM's pets can be called holograms for the same reason.

 

Mechanically, illusion control does not work for a mastermind. Thematically, illusion control does not work for a mastermind. Having an incorporeal hologram or a mental projection or a magical phantasm does not make any sense for the idea of a mastermind. As possible tricks for a gadgeteering MM or a spellcasting MM or a psionic MM? Sure. As the MM's actual servants? Not in the least.

 

If you want illusions or holograms as pets as a mastermind? Then you already have them, you just have to declare they are. Maybe that is what why when they are defeated and you summon replacements, they look just like the ones that were defeated. (You're still a poor excuse for a mastermind since you have no actual minions though. And how would bodyguard work when your minions aren't even real? Would the illusion/hologram MM be denied bodyguard mode?)

 

Edit: "I'll save you, master!" *illusion bravely throws self between the MM and the attacker* *bullet passes through the illusion completely unfazed because it can't comprehend the idea of an insubstantial nothing impeding it no matter how the MM tries to convince it otherwise* *MM dies from bullet to the heart*

Edited June 24, 2022 by Rudra
Corrected what to why.

[Zepp]

Holograms, illusions, tulpas, or spirits...

While the mechanics would have to change, using the animations from Illusion Control would be a good idea. You may want to put this in the Eco-Friendly Powerset Recycling thread...

Edited June 24, 2022 by Zepp

[TheZag]

Id say it makes as much sense as every other super powered thing that doesnt make sense but we use and have fun with anyway.  But since im not invested in the idea,  i think ill let u guys hash it out.

[battlewraith]

There's no thematic problem with an illusion MM set. Illusion basically means deceiving the senses. A card trick is an illusion, it doesn't mean there are no cards. Even the phantasm from the controller set has reality. The MM version would just be toning down the control and building on that aspect of the pets. 

[Rudra]

Here is a version of illusion control I can agree with for MMs:

 

Illusory Support (MM Secondary)

Tier 1: Illusory Recovery. You convince a target they are not as badly injured as they think. ST heal, functions as Spectral Wounds except in reverse. Target is healed, and after set amount of time, takes a wound as the illusion wears off.

Tier 2: Impassable Field. You create the illusion of a field of <fire, caltrops, sharp ice, a group of me greeting them, something else unpleasant, pick something>. Location AoE. Minor DoT, heals back some of the damage at end of duration, foe -SPD.

Tier 3: Blind. You fill a target's senses with false images, rendering him defenseless. ST hold. No damage.

Tier 4: Dark World. You attempt to cloud the perceptions of several foes. Targeted AoE, only affects targets within AoE at time of power activation. Foe -DMG, -To Hit.

Tier 5: Invisibility. You cause others to not perceive you. As per Superior Invisibility.

Tier 6: Group Invisibility. You cause others to not perceive you or your allies. As per Group Invisibility.

Tier 7: Spectral Terror. As per Spectral Terror.

Tier 8: Phantom Allies. You create the illusion of several allies to aid you. Summon as per Phantom Army or summon 5 untouchable pets with no attacks that can still be targeted thus reducing the numbers of attackers attacking you. (I'm in favor of the cannot attack version, because with this proposal, the MM will have a LOT of pets and I would like to limit that.)

Tier 9: Phantasm. You summon a phantasm as per Phantasm.

Edited June 24, 2022 by Rudra
Edited for clarity.

[Rudra]

12 minutes ago, battlewraith said:

There's no thematic problem with an illusion MM set. Illusion basically means deceiving the senses. A card trick is an illusion, it doesn't mean there are no cards. Even the phantasm from the controller set has reality. The MM version would just be toning down the control and building on that aspect of the pets. 

A card trick is a bit of prestidigitation. A bit of sleight of hand. It is the same type of "illusion" as any other real world form of magic. Illusions from Illusory Control are not mere sleight of hand. And out of all the pets the Illusion Control controller has, only the Phantasm has any substance. Not even the decoy phantasm has substance. So we're still talking about a minion-based character with no minions.

Edited June 24, 2022 by Rudra
Edited to add "-based".

[battlewraith]

58 minutes ago, Rudra said:

A card trick is a bit of prestidigitation. A bit of sleight of hand. It is the same type of "illusion" as any other real world form of magic. Illusions from Illusory Control are not mere sleight of hand. And out of all the pets the Illusion Control controller has, only the Phantasm has any substance. Not even the decoy phantasm has substance. So we're still talking about a minion character with no minions.

No you're talking about a minion character with no minions. I see how you're viewing this, I just don't think you're lack of imagination is compelling. The MM invokes some substance, mental constructs, the stuff of dreams, whatever. That substance is made to look and behave like something else, but it's an illusion. It's not really the thing it appears to be. Obviously the pets would work differently than the controller pets. That's a game mechanic issue. Thematically, there is no issue. 

 

This is a game where you can be in another dimension and summon a thug that rides in on a motorcycle. Nitpicking about an illusion having a real world effect in the game is silly.

[Tiger Shadow]

20 hours ago, EdgeOfDreams said:

All I know is that back in the day, the devs said they wouldn't port Illusion to Dominators because most of its powers wouldn't benefit from Domination.

 

Which is weird, because it has even fewer powers that set up containment and I don't hear controllers complaining about that.

[arcane]

I think we should focus on more popular ideas not yet covered for Masterminds - lot of ground to cover there still before you get to an arbitrary niche like this.

 

And then port Illusion Control to Dominators with Phantom Army swapped out for something else. IMO Phantom Army as is on Dominators would be way too OP.

Edited June 24, 2022 by arcane

[Rudra]

Like pet customization? Or maybe pet customization? How about pet customization? Nah, I think they should work on pet customization instead. ... there's something wrong with what I just said... but I can't customize... I mean... figure it out....

[Rudra]

Yes, I am dearly hoping to be able to customize my pets' appearances, but honestly, I think most people would be more than happy to settle for Illusion Control's mirror option.

[biostem]

Instead of trying to expand the various illusion powers into full fledged pets, why not just expand the phantom army into the three tiers of pets, each with different levels of powers and abilities;  The T1s could use fire, ice, and (expanded to now include), electricity melee attacks.  The T2s could be ranged attackers, perhaps with a control ability mixed in, and the T3 would lean more heavily into the control and debuff abilities, perhaps with a mixture of the elements.  The 1st attack could be spectral wounds, the 2nd attack could be a variation on the "blind" power, but just dealing damage and with no or a very brief hold effect, and the 3rd attack could be something like psionic tornado.  The set's special ability could be to summon a spectral terror, or maybe even a "true" phantom army, (only with a shorter duration and/or longer recharge).

Edited June 24, 2022 by biostem

[dangeraaron10]

I'd rather see Dominators get Illusion first.  Few powers on it would Dominate, sure, but few powers Dominate in Electric or Ice Control and few powers set up Containment in Illusion on Controller.  

 

Not that I want to crap on this idea out of hand.  I wouldn't *dislike* a version of Illusion on Mastermind but it'd feel like Dominator was robbed and there's a long list of fan favorite new pet types for MMs having been suggested before.  

 

Not an outright /jranger but I'd be a bit miffed.