Too strong

[Yomo Kimyata]

Also, they are too pretty.

[SeraphimKensai]

6 hours ago, Omega-202 said:

@InvaderStych, yes that is definitely a huge factor.  I cannot overstate how disgusting a damage capped, 4 proc @ 90% fire rate Ground Zero with a 22.5ft radius, 30 target cap and 23 second recharge is. Or a 30 ft, 5 proc @ 90% fire rate Radiation Therapy.  And those are Tank PRIMARY powers that make my poor Sentinel cry in a corner with his sad nuke.  

 

AoEs that large probably shouldn't be capable of having 90% proc rates while also having such low recharges.  

That's a base what 90 second recharge rate, so the build definitely has to have some global recharge reduction (perhaps aegis as well) to get it around 23 second recharge I'd imagine.

[Omega-202]

12 minutes ago, SeraphimKensai said:

That's a base what 90 second recharge rate, so the build definitely has to have some global recharge reduction (perhaps aegis as well) to get it around 23 second recharge I'd imagine.

Yeah tons.  But the comparison is that a normal 20ft / 90 sec AoE can only innately slot ~78% recharge before impacting proc rate, while a Gauntleted 15 ft / 90 sec AoE can slot up to and past the recharge ED cap without ever worrying about impacting proc rate...while still having a 5ft wider diameter (15 ft x 1.5 = 22.5 ft radius).  That's an extra 26.5% area compared, in case a 5 ft wider diameter doesn't sound like much.

[ZemX]

20 hours ago, Omega-202 said:

I think this might merit further review.  There's the weird intangible factor from the enemy AI that doesn't really show up when you look at Tanks vs other ATs that I think contributes to the weird balance situation. 

 

I think it's pretty well known that you need a taunt, preferably a taunt aura, to efficiently AoE a spawn.   You compared Tankers, who not only ALL have taunt auras, but also have AoE gauntlet taunts in every attack... to an AT that by-design has neither.   

 

You'd see the same problem comparing Scrapper primaries that have a taunt aura to ones that don't.   And comparing Tankers to Brutes, I think you'd see pretty predictably the Brute outpacing the Tanker in most cases.  There might be certain specific combos that do better on Tanker, but that'd be about it, I expect.

 

If I'm serious about soloing on a Stalker, I try to find a way to fit in Provoke and/or an AoE immob to at least keep some enemies from running.  

[Troo]

Given the changes in Beta, we may be coming into the Age of Tankers.

 

..because why wouldn't we?

[PLVRIZR]

49 minutes ago, Troo said:

Given the changes in Beta, we may be coming into the Age of Tankers.

 

Wait, aren't' we already there?  😆

[Troo]

25 minutes ago, PLVRIZR said:

Wait, aren't' we already there?

 

With the damage boost, I thought so. But with the potential survive-ability differential.. Oof, poor scrappers.

[ZemX]

43 minutes ago, Troo said:

With the damage boost, I thought so. But with the potential survive-ability differential.. Oof, poor scrappers.

 

If you're referring to the advanced difficulty modes, yeah, you won't want Scrappers tanking for you.  But you also won't want Tankers DPSing for you.

 

I don't think you'll necessarily NEED Tankers, but you'll want to think more about having some combination of folks on the team controlling/supporting/tanking so you can have some others doing the real damage dealing.  Scrappers in that situation will be what they were always meant to be: Damage dealers that do less damage but survive better than Blasters.

 

Blasters who have gotten used to being nigh-untouchable with soft-cap defenses won't be having fun without support/tanking in that situation, that's for sure.

[VV]

On 7/13/2022 at 9:58 AM, ZemX said:

You'd see the same problem comparing Scrapper primaries that have a taunt aura to ones that don't.

Yeah, I have a fire armor Tank and a fire armor Scrapper. For the Tank, enemies will happily stand in Burn until they die. For the Scrapper, they run out of Burn at their first opportunity. This almost makes my Tank a faster killer in solo AOE situations because the Scrapper has to go chasing everyone all the time. I hardly run the Scrapper solo, anymore because of that.

[Pep Rally]

On 7/15/2022 at 11:42 AM, PLVRIZR said:

Wait, aren't' we already there?  😆

Yup, for the past 18 years if my math is correct.

[ninja surprise]

On 7/12/2022 at 5:54 PM, Infinitum said:

What a tanker can do more efficiently than a brute:

* Take out hoards of henchmen with ease and shrug off the damage without much issue.

 

What a brute can do more efficiently than a tanker:

* Take out hardened targets like AVs without delay or drudgery - with a little more risk if overcome with aggro.

 

 

And the other big difference is which powers you get when exemp'd for TFs, etc.  If you'd rather have attacks, go Brute, if you want armor, go Tank.

Same for Corruptors vs Defenders.

 

I wonder how the upcoming typed defense change will affect Invuln tankers in particular, but also everyone else who capped S/L defense that'll now get ignored.

[Troo]

@ninja surprise excellent point.

[Bill Z Bubba]

22 hours ago, ninja surprise said:

I wonder how the upcoming typed defense change will affect Invuln tankers in particular, but also everyone else who capped S/L defense that'll now get ignored.

 

Meh, they're tanks. They won't notice.

[EmperorSteele]

On 7/15/2022 at 10:52 AM, Troo said:

Given the changes in Beta, we may be coming into the Age of Tankers.

 

..because why wouldn't we?

 

I dunno man, I've been trying the new HM TF and my tank died just as many times (if not more) as the others on the team. Which is weird, because Aeon in hardmode wasn't as punishing as the new one.

 

Either way, I'm making up a new build, will post for CC when I get home later.

[Bill Z Bubba]

2 minutes ago, EmperorSteele said:

I dunno man, I've been trying the new HM TF and my tank died just as many times (if not more) as the others on the team. Which is weird, because Aeon in hardmode wasn't as punishing as the new one.

 

Either way, I'm making up a new build, will post for CC when I get home later.

 

While true about the hardmode diff, that's a TINY percentage of content specifically designed to beat the hell out of those attempting to solo it. My eternal (and seemingly wrongheaded) hope is that we never have enough power creep where soloing the HM ITF is as easy as soloing the non-HM ITF is now but I won't be holding my breath on that hope.

[Galactiman]

On 7/12/2022 at 8:48 AM, Bill Z Bubba said:

Being able to easily get 20.1% resist to EVERYthing from the AtO proc has always made me question the sanity of whoever set that value.

 

For one, it greatly benefits defense based tanks more than their resist based cousins since so much of it gets wasted on resist builds. (It's similar to how I view Shadow Meld for scraps/stalks where that greatly benefits resist and does fark all for defense and there's no resist based A-EPP power to balance that equation.)

 

Two, it's a huge amount of resists coming off of a single freakin enhancement.

 

And then you compare it to the AtOs that brutes get and you're left again wondering, WTF?

ATOs are so out of whack. Some are amazing and gamechanging like Scrappers, Stalkers, and Tankers, then you look at hot garbage like Brutes and Khelds for instance. Makes no damn sense.

[Infinitum]

1 hour ago, Galactiman said:

ATOs are so out of whack. Some are amazing and gamechanging like Scrappers, Stalkers, and Tankers, then you look at hot garbage like Brutes and Khelds for instance. Makes no damn sense.

Khelds in general are a mixed bag of don't make sense, but i believe where brutes are concerned - fury generation was more of a priority than it is now - because it was updated and now easier to generate fury.

 

Could be wrong, but that seems familiar in my brain.

[VV]

On 7/16/2022 at 3:23 PM, ninja surprise said:

And the other big difference is which powers you get when exemp'd for TFs, etc.  If you'd rather have attacks, go Brute, if you want armor, go Tank.

This is true, in general. But with the 3 P2W prestige attacks, I think this puts tankers back over the top when Exemping, especially to particularly low levels, 20 and below.

[PLVRIZR]

19 hours ago, VV said:

But with the 3 P2W prestige attacks, I think this puts tankers back over the top when Exemping, especially to particularly low levels, 20 and below.

 

^--This. 

 

And a welcomed "feature" compared to Live.  I routinely build leveling focused tanks with all armors/primary attacks slotted, as soon as available, to the detriment of secondary attack choices.  Filling in with Sands of Mu and Blackwand allow that strategy.

[Gobbledigook]

Personally i think Tankers are fine. Yes they can can take a tremendous beating but that is how they should be. Yes they can do some damage, but it s still far behind the damage dealers. If they went back to how they were before being buffed we would be back where we were and getting complaints yet again.

 

Perhaps just leave them alone and move on as they are now much more fun than they were. Don't complain that your Scrapper can not do what a Tanker does when a Tanker can not do what a Scrapper does either.

 

Kill this thread already lol.

 

 

[Marshal_General]

On 7/12/2022 at 12:58 PM, Hyperstrike said:

Personally, I love walking into a fight and spending most of my time shaking hands with the villain's FACE.

The cherry on the top is having someone who isn't acquainted with EXACTLY how insane Tanker builds can be, looking at you afterwards going "How the *PANCAKE!* did you do THAT?"

Hence, my signature...

When I am asked that, I find I can't give a definitive answer so I tend to waffle.

[Hyperstrike]

55 minutes ago, Marshal_General said:

When I am asked that, I find I can't give a definitive answer so I tend to waffle.

[VV]

On 8/6/2022 at 4:26 PM, Gobbledegook said:

If they went back to how they were before being buffed we would be back where we were and getting complaints yet again.

I don't think anyone around here is nerfherding. I certainly am not. Just discussing the fun of tankers and the pros and cons of different ATs

[Bill Z Bubba]

34 minutes ago, VV said:

I don't think anyone around here is nerfherding.

 

I admit my nerfherding ways but I buffherd, too!

[Gobbledigook]

4 hours ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

 

I admit my nerfherding ways but I buffherd, too!

 

Why, you stuck up, half-witted, scruffy looking, NERF HERDER!