issue 27 Focused Feedback: Attack Typing Adjustments

[Eldyem]

On 7/16/2022 at 11:07 PM, Marshal_General said:

People do want to play support characters. The problem is at the end game they are not needed and this will address only part of the problem.. The other problem is with incarnates, everyone has a pocket nuke and lore pets.

Is any role really needed at end game? I'm not turning down anyone in the first place, but why would I care that someone is playing a Time Manipulation/Thermal Radiation/Dark Misama/Radiation Emission/Pain Domination/Trick Arrow/Traps/Cold Domination/Poison character if we're at the level where we're just steam rolling? I feel like I'm missing the correlation here.

[Infinitum]

1 minute ago, Eldyem said:

Is any role really needed at end game? I'm not turning down anyone in the first place, but why would I care that someone is playing a Time Manipulation/Thermal Radiation/Dark Misama/Radiation Emission/Pain Domination/Trick Arrow/Traps/Cold Domination/Poison character if we're at the level where we're just steam rolling? I feel like I'm missing the correlation here.

 

Before i say what i am about to say - let me preface this by stating I am not knocking anyone here - because i get it.

 

But, what they or anyone wants is to be a hero - "look at mah healz" "look at mah bubblz" etc. And why shouldnt they?  It has its place and i totally get the sentiment for being the unseen force that holds and protects the team and withers the enemy.

 

The problem we have is its more of a lets wither the enemy and we dont need the unseen force because by all that is holy you will see our force. Here again why shouldnt it?  The invention system was released to patch holes and make the vulnerable invulnerable again.  That is how it was pitched 

 

Neither mindset is wrong, how do you reconcile it?  I dunno. 

 

I think everyone needs to find their nich and others that enjoy it - because i gotta believe any type is out there.

 

Thats my .02 - adjusted for inflation .15

[Zepp]

A lot of the builds I've seen on the forums tested poorly after this change, but my builds seemed basically unaffected. It seems like having broad-spectrum protections is now meaningful whereas before capping Sm/Le was optimal.

I like this change as it makes the game more intuitive. Attacks that are mostly Psi work with Psi def/res.

[Lines]

10 hours ago, Night said:

Still with no reason given for this terrible change, all we can assume is that someone who complains about the game being too easy, while at the same time only ever playing lvl 50 content on IO'd and incarnated out meta builds and nothing else, and doing nothing of the many ways to make the game more fun or challenging for themselves, has somehow gotten to the devs after one too many "I wanna play this way so everyone has to!" threads.

 

Please be sure to test and report on the areas of the game that have been made too difficult by the change.

[SwitchFade]

On 7/28/2022 at 7:56 PM, Night said:

Still with no reason given for this terrible change, all we can assume is that someone who complains about the game being too easy, while at the same time only ever playing lvl 50 content on IO'd and incarnated out meta builds and nothing else, and doing nothing of the many ways to make the game more fun or challenging for themselves, has somehow gotten to the devs after one too many "I wanna play this way so everyone has to!" threads.

I already detailed exactly why this change is proposed and in beta.

 

And, don't forget, the balance must always consider SO only builds, which this will not affect, because they were not able to abuse S/L to make sentinels irrelevant, compete with scrappers in terms of alpha capability and facetank most content.

 

As I said previously, no need to look any further than my blasters that can run in first, ignore a 54/8 alpha, unload nuke every spawn and wipe them all, staying in melee the whole time.

 

And that's even exemp down to levels as low as 29.

[bigfashizzel]

I find the arguments that there should be no changes because it makes 54x8 too hard confusing.  Especially when the suggestion is simply to add other harder content.

If these changes make it hard for you to solo at 54x8, why not just change your own notoriety settings to be lower?

 

I like the change.

[SwitchFade]

28 minutes ago, bigfashizzel said:

I find the arguments that there should be no changes because it makes 54x8 too hard confusing.  Especially when the suggestion is simply to add other harder content.

If these changes make it hard for you to solo at 54x8, why not just change your own notoriety settings to be lower?

 

I like the change.

*Gasp*, logic?!

[kingsmidgens]

I think that there are some incorrect assumptions being made here, chiefly that it "doesn't impact players" who aren't extremely invested in S/L defense in particular.  The only player/character this does not impact in any way is a character with both either positional/no typed and equal Resistances across the board.  VERY RARELY will this be "a buff" under certain circumstances, which would end up being a nerf in pretty much every other circumstance for that same character.

S/L Defense and S/L Resistance are the most common forms in their respective category, that's why it works to build for them while not leaving you 100% protected, which I believe is a fair balance.  Most enemies already have an attack that ignores S/L Defense and deals generally that non-S/L type of damage, even if they have several that ARE S/L+ typed.

Let's assume a character built out in SOs.  It's been said it has no impact on these characters at all.  This is assuming that they don't have an armor set or one of several Epic/pool Defense powers, which are either all or generally typed.  Frozen Armor and Scorpion Shield are both very popular.  While true that Weave grants Defense to all - unless you skipped Tough, this combination even without considering IOs will mean that your character is taking more damage than they were before.

The justification for removing S/L tags came with shifting the damage on the individual powers, so to make another assumption here, we're saying the character does not have IOs and all defense is equal.  Well, the overarching change will still impact them, because they're likely to have S/L Resistance as their highest resistance.

To use Energy Melee as an example, these attacks used to deal 60% S/L and 40% Energy.  They're now doing 40% S/L and 60% Energy.  S/L is the more resisted type by characters with resistance in most cases.  Just looking at the Armor sets, there are only two sets that have Energy higher than S/L, and these are the only two that have S/L equal to or lower than Energy when you consider in Tough (which, let's be honest, you're taking Tough on those characters) - this also applies to all shifted damage types because these sets, while they have a primary focus, tend to have S/L equal to or higher than their other Resistances, and they almost always have it as a fallback.  And again, taking Tough and Weave will almost guarantee it.  For every bit of one you may be resisting more of because it's your specialty, the flipside is you're now taking more from what your hole is.  Elec Brutes who don't have 90% S/L are now taking less from S/L/Energy split attacks and more from.. every other S/L+ split attack.

So you're going from taking a majority of damage as more commonly resisted damage to the majority of damage as a less resisted damage instead.  In the case of more Support-oriented ATs, you may not have very much Resistance at all to fall back on, it's mostly going to be S/L from Tough and a +RES Epic power, if you didn't go Defense.  If you went Defense, you're going to take A WHOLE lot more damage after this change.  Cold/Dark/Storm may be exceptions but still pushed to Primarily S/L if you took an Epic Resist toggle besides Charged Armor.

If this legitimately has no impact on you at all I would argue that you and the vast majority of the playerbase are playing completely different games from one another.  If you're telling me that it may not have that much of an effect on you - I would say that it's plausible but I still have to question why this change to a fundamental aspect of the game is even necessary, especially if it doesn't have that much of an effect, and what's going to come next.

I trust the game that was built over time and the head for numbers that the OG devs had over many of the quite honestly mind-boggling decisions that have either been attempted or actually implemented and really think it's going to lead down a slippery slope if a line isn't drawn.


When people are suggesting that harder content be created, it's different than just across the board "making everything harder" - leave the existing game content as it is, think of new challenges for players to optionally tackle if they would like to do so and ideally some reason to push their characters through these challenges.

[Wavicle]

Again, this only affects a few attacks and a few enemy groups. It’s NOT in fact a wholesale redesign of how defense works as some have suggested. It does not across the board make everything harder.

[Jacke]

3 hours ago, Wavicle said:

Again, this only affects a few attacks and a few enemy groups. It’s NOT in fact a wholesale redesign of how defense works as some have suggested. It does not across the board make everything harder.

 

I don't think so.  I don't have number of mob and player powers to hand, but it appears that well over 15 to 20 of each, as well as several enemy groups, have been changed for this.  That's not "a few attacks".  I think @kingsmidgens has the better appreciation of the impact.

[KaizenSoze]

8 hours ago, kingsmidgens said:

I think that there are some incorrect assumptions being made here, chiefly that it "doesn't impact players" who aren't extremely invested in S/L defense in particular.  The only player/character this does not impact in any way is a character with both either positional/no typed and equal Resistances across the board.  VERY RARELY will this be "a buff" under certain circumstances, which would end up being a nerf in pretty much every other circumstance for that same character.

I have read your post all the way through twice. Please, post specific examples of mobs that are wrecking you now.

 

I have run defenders, corruptors, and controllers through multiple tests against 4x8 groups. I am *not* seeing a massive difference. Yes, everyone will be taking some more damage even if they are not relying on softcapped s/l.

 

This thread is mostly people who have tested and found that the change not huge and people who have been theorizing that it will apocalyptic.

 

If you have found a group that is wrecking you now. Please, please, please, post a description of who you were fighting, what level, and what AT you were using. Posting your build would be helpful.

 

Adjustments have been made, because testing found that Lord Recluse got rather nasty. The toxic/psi defense buffs are a result of people testing specific groups and finding an issues with specific mobs that got a boost. Example, Toxic Tarantulas.

 

If you want the devs to listen, test and post specifics.

[KaizenSoze]

5 hours ago, Jacke said:

 

I don't think so.  I don't have number of mob and player powers to hand, but it appears that well over 15 to 20 of each, as well as several enemy groups, have been changed for this.  That's not "a few attacks".  I think @kingsmidgens has the better appreciation of the impact.

Yes, some mobs in some groups have been changed to use different attack types.

 

Please, post what entire groups, or even 50% of a group that have been effected by this change.

 

Specifics are the key if you want anything to change.

[Sovera]

 

5 hours ago, KaizenSoze said:

Yes, some mobs in some groups have been changed to use different attack types.

 

Please, post what entire groups, or even 50% of a group that have been effected by this change.

 

Specifics are the key if you want anything to change.

13 hours ago, kingsmidgens said:

I think that there are some incorrect assumptions being made here, chiefly that it "doesn't impact players" who aren't extremely invested in S/L defense in particular.  The only player/character this does not impact in any way is a character with both either positional/no typed and equal Resistances across the board.  VERY RARELY will this be "a buff" under certain circumstances, which would end up being a nerf in pretty much every other circumstance for that same character.

S/L Defense and S/L Resistance are the most common forms in their respective category, that's why it works to build for them while not leaving you 100% protected, which I believe is a fair balance.  Most enemies already have an attack that ignores S/L Defense and deals generally that non-S/L type of damage, even if they have several that ARE S/L+ typed.

Let's assume a character built out in SOs.  It's been said it has no impact on these characters at all.  This is assuming that they don't have an armor set or one of several Epic/pool Defense powers, which are either all or generally typed.  Frozen Armor and Scorpion Shield are both very popular.  While true that Weave grants Defense to all - unless you skipped Tough, this combination even without considering IOs will mean that your character is taking more damage than they were before.

The justification for removing S/L tags came with shifting the damage on the individual powers, so to make another assumption here, we're saying the character does not have IOs and all defense is equal.  Well, the overarching change will still impact them, because they're likely to have S/L Resistance as their highest resistance.

To use Energy Melee as an example, these attacks used to deal 60% S/L and 40% Energy.  They're now doing 40% S/L and 60% Energy.  S/L is the more resisted type by characters with resistance in most cases.  Just looking at the Armor sets, there are only two sets that have Energy higher than S/L, and these are the only two that have S/L equal to or lower than Energy when you consider in Tough (which, let's be honest, you're taking Tough on those characters) - this also applies to all shifted damage types because these sets, while they have a primary focus, tend to have S/L equal to or higher than their other Resistances, and they almost always have it as a fallback.  And again, taking Tough and Weave will almost guarantee it.  For every bit of one you may be resisting more of because it's your specialty, the flipside is you're now taking more from what your hole is.  Elec Brutes who don't have 90% S/L are now taking less from S/L/Energy split attacks and more from.. every other S/L+ split attack.

So you're going from taking a majority of damage as more commonly resisted damage to the majority of damage as a less resisted damage instead.  In the case of more Support-oriented ATs, you may not have very much Resistance at all to fall back on, it's mostly going to be S/L from Tough and a +RES Epic power, if you didn't go Defense.  If you went Defense, you're going to take A WHOLE lot more damage after this change.  Cold/Dark/Storm may be exceptions but still pushed to Primarily S/L if you took an Epic Resist toggle besides Charged Armor.

If this legitimately has no impact on you at all I would argue that you and the vast majority of the playerbase are playing completely different games from one another.  If you're telling me that it may not have that much of an effect on you - I would say that it's plausible but I still have to question why this change to a fundamental aspect of the game is even necessary, especially if it doesn't have that much of an effect, and what's going to come next.

I trust the game that was built over time and the head for numbers that the OG devs had over many of the quite honestly mind-boggling decisions that have either been attempted or actually implemented and really think it's going to lead down a slippery slope if a line isn't drawn.


When people are suggesting that harder content be created, it's different than just across the board "making everything harder" - leave the existing game content as it is, think of new challenges for players to optionally tackle if they would like to do so and ideally some reason to push their characters through these challenges.

 

As Kaizen said, please be specific. Tests ran exhaustively by players worried about this have been run and been posted. You say otherwise. Surely it was not just some random sky-is-falling without having been tested first.... right?

 

And please, don't let it just slide into obscurity, do give an answer and if possible what build was used. You did take the time to write all that so surely it is important enough to share what you found.

 

...you did test it and it wasn't just a panicky reply, right?

Edited August 1, 2022 by Sovera

[Wavicle]

Same as it ever was:

People are totally aware that capping just S/L making them nearly unkillable was obviously broken. They are complaining that their clearly OP toy is being taken away.

[arcane]

2 minutes ago, Wavicle said:

Same as it ever was:

People are totally aware that capping just S/L making them nearly unkillable was obviously broken. They are complaining that their clearly OP toy is being taken away.

I hardly ever build this way because defense bonuses are for n00bs 🙂 the tears are so delicious.

[TalonBlue]

So.

 

I haven’t tested this. I’ll try to get to beta at some point. I’ve never been the type of player who gets too involved with any game in such a manner.

 

However, since I can’t find a dev’s explanation, I’ll phrase it like this:

 

What does this proposed change do that would not be affected if instead, Scorpion Shield, Frozen Armor, and Stone Armor were nerfed?

 

I think this is what is being danced around, IMO. My suspicion is that this is trying to encompass more than S/L defense and I’d like to know what exactly. What I don’t like is that these changes are presented in manner that are only minor. That is my concern.

[Wavicle]

The change impacts everyone, not just those with certain epic armors.

[TalonBlue]

9 minutes ago, Wavicle said:

The change impacts everyone, not just those with certain epic armors.

What specifically?

 

I’m not for or against the change. I just want the context, for something that is implied to be a minor change. It isn’t minor. If the intent is making squishy AT’s squishy again. Why isn’t this being done in a more round about way? Something clear, and understandable, and with context and transparency?

[arcane]

1 minute ago, TalonBlue said:

What specifically?

 

I’m not for or against the change. I just want the context, for something that is implied to be a minor change. It isn’t minor. If the intent is making squishy AT’s squishy again. Why isn’t this being done in a more round about way? Something clear, and understandable, and with context and transparency?

Can you clarify which part is not clear or transparent….:

 

 

[Omega-202]

1 hour ago, Wavicle said:

The change impacts everyone, not just those with certain epic armors.

Not really.  It only really impacts characters with heavily skewed typed defense levels. 

 

I have plenty of characters with pretty flat defenses between types or have positional defenses, neither of which are really affected.  A character with 40-42% typed defenses across the board or 30% for all positional defenses isn't going to notice this change.

 

This is a targetted nerf to Scorpion Shield and Ice Shield and S/L/M defense bonus stacking.  

[Ruin Mage]

I wonder how many people posting against it have actually tested this.

[TalonBlue]

56 minutes ago, Shadeknight said:

I wonder how many people posting against it have actually tested this.

If someone can tell me how to measure, qualify/quantify those tests, I’m all ears.

[Wavicle]

Incoming damage is reported in the log

[Wavicle]

1 hour ago, Omega-202 said:

S/L/M defense bonus stacking

 

This effects everyone, as I said.

[America's Angel]

14 minutes ago, TalonBlue said:

If someone can tell me how to measure, qualify/quantify those tests, I’m all ears.

 

Take your character that has typed defenses, and see how they perform against various enemy groups on live vs beta.

 

You'll want to test versus enemy groups with attacks that do mixed damage types. Like Arachnos, Circle of Thorns, Crey, etc.