issue 27 Focused Feedback: Toggle Suspension and Suppression

[WindDemon21]

Yup that exactly is another reason Wav. It's already been an issue IMO that debuffs get affected by the purple patch and resistances yet buffs do not (though enemy buffs hurt the same to either). Also, again it's unfair to factor in the recharge when in most cases, (certainly any i've played from level 20 and beyond) the powers are already recharged by the time the mez wears off, and it DOESN'T factor the fact that you CAN boost your rech to make it a non-factor, where as the suppression hurts you regardless.

 

This honestly doesn't even go to the fact that it seems pretty pointless for toggles to even have a recharge to even begin with, and also isn't addressing that there are lots of toggles like darkest night that SHOULD have their cast times reduced to 1-1.5 seconds as it is already.  So factoring some of that to the suppression is already kind of a joke.

[brass_eagle]

1 hour ago, Bopper said:

 

I took your numbers and applied a couple more factors to them. The column worth looking at is CD/2-2, which is the time it would take to get all of your toggles back (for just the set, assuming no offensive toggles outside the set). There are no perfect assumptions, but I picked 200% Total Recharge (100% base and 100% more from any other source). Could I bump that up for end game builds? Yes. But not everybody IOs out there builds, especially those who are leveling up naturally. Personally, I don't slot recharge in toggles, I slot endurance or buff the effects of the toggle. So 100% global recharge fits for my builds in this regard. But again, pick what it true to you.

 

I also assumed 2s average hold time (maybe you can pop an inspiration faster, maybe you are held the whole time...either way, pick whatever the value you think is best - I picked 2).

 

I then factored in the cast time and cooldowns of each toggle in these sets. I should have included Arcanatime, but let's assume a perfect world for now. What you'll find is the average time for each of these (under the variables I set) will average 7 seconds to have all toggles return fully. That's not far off from 8s that we have on Beta, but as you see that's using sets that average only 1.6 toggles. For sets with exactly 2 toggles it ranged from 7-10s.

 

For completeness sake, I added Tornado to Storm Summoning in my notes, but I did not include it in my calculations. I just wanted to highlight that toggles with pets still drop and if they come off cooldown fast enough you might be having to retoggle after mez, which prevents you from retoggling other powers.

 

 

 

It is important to factor in recharge time of some of these toggles, I think you are right on that and something I missed. I like it. A toggle has to be recharged to immediately begin toggle-ing persay.

 

Mez time is the tricky wide-range variable here. More often than not, I'm definitely mezzed for a lot longer than 2 seconds and ran out of BFs. Don't get me started on Malta stun (I wasn't even near the group darnit!)

 

However, I do think both of our notes do somewhat miss the point of: "If I'm mezzed for 4 seconds, Radiation Infection with 150% recharge would be up 2 seconds later. With no recharge, 4 seconds later. With this change, 8 seconds." If I'm struggling on a small team against a mez-heavy group, that suspension is going to get reactivated without an interval of the debuff taking affect. Or a group with a long mez for instance.

 

That just doesn't feel right to me, especially when I tested it on my Nature def. It feels kinda bad, and as a player there isn't anything I can do about it. Some toggles on short recharges are more important than others and it goes set by set. Our numbers do tend to lump them together. Which, anecdotally, is exactly what some members don't like about this change. It seems like a trade-off. I don't need both Hurricane and Snowstorm after being mezzed. Probably just Hurricane, might not be worried about Tornado in that moment of panic (LOL!). Or Just Spore Cloud.

 

I don't have to call them important toggles I suppose, but it's clear to me that some of the shorter recharge, but potent offensive-toggles are penalized here. Unless your mezzed for <1s or so.

 

My stance on this change is I want it to be 80/20 positive-negative if it has to be a trade-off. Right now it feels like 55/45 for some sets and 65/35 for others with the 8-second window. Still positive, but I'm losing in areas greatly too. It's an era where 1.73 seconds is too long because its not 1.67.

 

Sorry Bopper! You didn't comment on all that. Just a rant that went on from your Mez duration assumption related to recharge. Mez duration, quite variable. Heh.

 

I'll try to be better. I do think CD/2-2 is an important way to look at it.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited July 14, 2022 by brass_eagle

[Wavicle]

In fact there are several situations in which the offensive toggle is itself the characters main protection against enemy mez. Nature, Radiation, Storm, Dark, and probably others share this quality.

Now, imagine the case in which the character is mezzed, escapes the mez, and then is mezzed again BEFORE the 8 seconds are up. If the point of the QoL change is to reduce frustration (let alone improve performance), I don't think this is going to do it.

[brass_eagle]

1 hour ago, Wavicle said:

<blurby>

I really wish the comparison to Buff toggles would be addressed. Why is it felt that there MUST be a further penalty to getting mezzed (beyond the duration of the mez itself) for debuffing sets? (Keeping in mind that the Purple Patch means debuffing sets advantages are already being compensated for.)

 

There is a disparity there. I 100% agree. If I were an Ice/Rad controller, I am much more penalized in terms of my mitigation than less offensive means. Despite that my effects are already reduced by enemy levels, resistances, pretty patches... Simply because it is a toggle that targets enemies. Not a click. Makes it a bit more complicated when sets have varying amounts of reliance on said offensive toggles of varying importance.

 

I hadn't thought of it that way. Thanks. Wrong or right it is food for thought.

Edited July 14, 2022 by brass_eagle
can't speel

[ForeverLaxx]

As someone previously mentioned, a flat 8 seconds for everyone is essentially punishing the whole class because one kid takes their time to do everything, but I think there's another issue no one has mentioned yet: you lose player priority when re-toggling with this system.

 

If someone has multiple Debuff/Damage toggles active that get suppressed, they all go on the same 8 second timer. The player isn't allowed to prioritize which toggles come back on in which order in that system. If you need Toggle A up because it provides more protection than Toggle B, but you're forced to wait the full 8 seconds, you might already be dead before they come back online. Things like Choking Cloud, Noxious Gas, Darkest Night, etc are given more importance in a detoggle situation than something like Snow Storm. Not being able to turn on your survival-boosting toggles before the full 8 seconds elapse just makes you more vulnerable than you were before, and you were already at a disadvantage. The only positive is that you're not locked into casting animations and can move around/attack while you wait for those 8 seconds, but you're probably faceplanting without those important debuff/control toggles getting up sooner.

 

If players are going to lose the ability to prioritize which toggles come up first, then the duration that they're suppressed should be lowered.

[Bopper]

45 minutes ago, brass_eagle said:

I'll try to be better.

In fairness, I originally didn't factor in cooldown either when looking at the proposed changes. After factoring it in, I started accepting 8s as a reasonable enough landing spot. Could it go lower? Perhaps. But like Powerhouse said, the only way to influence change is to test. I don't think I've seen any playtesting feedback in this thread so far, so I won't hold my breath on immediate changes.

[brass_eagle]

48 minutes ago, Bopper said:

In fairness, I originally didn't factor in cooldown either when looking at the proposed changes. After factoring it in, I started accepting 8s as a reasonable enough landing spot. Could it go lower? Perhaps. But like Powerhouse said, the only way to influence change is to test. I don't think I've seen any playtesting feedback in this thread so far, so I won't hold my breath on immediate changes.

 

 

I do believe a few people have mentioned it in this thread. Including myself in the post quoted. Admittedly my post wasn't flashing *test test test*. But hopefully CP does see the others.

Edited July 14, 2022 by brass_eagle

[Wavicle]

32 minutes ago, Bopper said:

In fairness, I originally didn't factor in cooldown either when looking at the proposed changes. After factoring it in, I started accepting 8s as a reasonable enough landing spot. Could it go lower? Perhaps. But like Powerhouse said, the only way to influence change is to test. I don't think I've seen any playtesting feedback in this thread so far, so I won't hold my breath on immediate changes.

 

However, then wouldn't it make sense if the suppression period started at when you got mezzed, not when the mez wears off? That's when the recharge begins...

[WindDemon21]

13 minutes ago, Bopper said:

In fairness, I originally didn't factor in cooldown either when looking at the proposed changes. After factoring it in, I started accepting 8s as a reasonable enough landing spot. Could it go lower? Perhaps. But like Powerhouse said, the only way to influence change is to test. I don't think I've seen any playtesting feedback in this thread so far, so I won't hold my breath on immediate changes.

Quite a few of us have, and you also don't need to to count just how long 8 seconds is in a battle, especially for key toggles that you need back on asap, esp considering how tbqh toggles shouldn't really even have recharges to begin with. Outside of that, and that most toggles should be reduced in their cast time regardless of this change to 1-1.5 seconds, it doesn't factor in:

1. with hasten, bonuses, slotting, buffs etc, and especially with the rech starting at the beginning of the mez, most rech on the toggles is often negligible.

2. the average offensive toggles that most sets/combos actually have, let alone that lots of those should already have lower cast times anywho.

3. that you can't choose which toggle you want to go on first immediately for your survival and/or in which order

4. that the target you have toggled may be dead, or moved around without your intervention BECAUSE you were mezzed, so you may likely not want it on that enemy anyway making you micromanage to untoggle first anyway

5. that this also means that the EFFECTS of those toggles wont work until after the suppression, regardless of when the actual debuff/effect of the toggle may occur earlier in the toggle animation.

6. defense toggles don't suppress, so there really isn't any reason for enemy toggles to suppress since they're already not working while mezzed as it is anyway and will still be subject to point 4 above.

[Bopper]

6 minutes ago, Wavicle said:

 

However, then wouldn't it make sense if the suppression period started at when you got mezzed, not when the mez wears off? That's when the recharge begins...

That's not how the event timer works. They check for how long since you've been mezzed. If you are still mezzed that time is 0. As soon as you are no longer mezzed the time is tracked. This is how stealth works too, it doesn't suppress starting at when you were first attacked, it checks when you were last attacked. If you get attacked again while suppressed, that timer restarts.

[Wavicle]

Just now, Bopper said:

That's not how the event timer works. They check for how long since you've been mezzed. If you are still mezzed that time is 0. As soon as you are no longer mezzed the time is tracked. This is how stealth works too, it doesn't suppress starting at when you were first attacked, it checks when you were last attacked. If you get attacked again while suppressed, that timer restarts.

 

Ok, that makes sense. But because of that, it seems like 8 is too much, because generally speaking it seems like it should also factor in time mezzed.

[ScarySai]

Even in extreme cases, like a rad emission user, where you might argue the 8 second timer breaks even - I would still argue a set being effectively shut down for eight seconds after just breaking out of a mez, however long that was, is not exactly the most fun thing to keep around.

Edited July 14, 2022 by ScarySai

[Carnifax]

3 hours ago, Bopper said:

In fairness, I originally didn't factor in cooldown either when looking at the proposed changes. After factoring it in, I started accepting 8s as a reasonable enough landing spot. Could it go lower? Perhaps. But like Powerhouse said, the only way to influence change is to test. I don't think I've seen any playtesting feedback in this thread so far, so I won't hold my breath on immediate changes.

It's not the easiest thing to test solo since most offensive togglers worried about this change are squishies. Getting deliberately mezzed on a x8 solo will get you killed most likely. 

 

I'll see if I can create a custom AE map where Lieuts have Soul Storm or something and the minions have nothing and try with my Fire/Nature. He also has Rune so I can test that interaction too. 

[Carnifax]

Also can I ask what the expected behaviour is vs Malta and other groups with ridiculously long mezzes? 

 

I mean generally the only way to cope with those is Break Free / Clarion  / Rune. Does the timer start counting when those are popped? (one would assume they should be) or does it tick away in the background waiting for the mez to expire?

 

2nd : Is there anything in the Logs recorded when a power unsurpresses after mez? 

Edited July 14, 2022 by Carnifax

[Jacktar]

Hi, just asking because I have no idea if this is a factor, how does an arbitory length ie the 8 seconds, affect the game feel when playing at different difficulty levels?

Getting mezzed playing solo at -1/0 is less jepardy than when at 4/8 teamed and now with these new diff level options how will say the newer tf/sf’s run. Could we be looking at potential team wipes if my toogles are down for the mezz time plus 8?

Advance apologies if this seems silly or naive.

Thanks guys.

[AlwaysAPrice]

5 hours ago, Wavicle said:

In fact there are several situations in which the offensive toggle is itself the characters main protection against enemy mez. Nature, Radiation, Storm, Dark, and probably others share this quality.

Now, imagine the case in which the character is mezzed, escapes the mez, and then is mezzed again BEFORE the 8 seconds are up. If the point of the QoL change is to reduce frustration (let alone improve performance), I don't think this is going to do it.

This was exactly what I encountered when I copied over a /Dark Corruptor for a test. Ran a Borea or two and let Clarion drop here and there to see how it went, and in particular stood around for a bit after whittling a spawn down to two Mentalists to see just how a mez-heavy scenario went. After one mez got through, I basically never wasn't slept or held longer than one or two attacks after that. In normal play, I could potentially slap Darkest Night back on in that window of opportunity and maybe get the next incoming mez to miss, but this way I don't even have the option. While this isn't any threat to that specific build that also has Fearsome Stare, a ton of IOs, and T4 Clarion anyway, anything that's still levelling or SO-based that relies on an offensive toggle to mitigate their vulnerability to mez is going to have a much chancier time of it when up against multiple mezzers or a mez-heavy boss.

[Marshal_General]

When do toggles start to recharge when mezzed? If they start recharging as soon as they drop could you subtract the mez time from the formula and add that to activation time?

 

Could you base the activation time off of how many toggles that would have been dropped with a cap on how long that would be? That people with one or two toggles would have a smaller time while those with a lot of toggles would get the full 8 seconds.

[starvingduck]

Hello!, I am not one of the normal beta testers, but I felt I should reply to this topic specific. First, I thank the devs for all the work and time they spend on a game where they get paid nothing.

 

As for the topic, I think the stated implementation will be bad, even in the said best case scenario where you drop four toggles or even six toggles. The reason is that toggles are not all created equal. There are toggles that add damage, there are toggles that add special effects, and there are toggles that are used for survivability. On the AT's I play when a survival toggle goes off I want it back on as soon as possible, A damage toggle can wait, or I may not even turn it back on for a while.

 

I do like the idea of toggles coming back on automatically though and I have a suggestion, although I do not know if it is possible.

Instead of turning back on all the toggles at the same time, give the toggles a priority number and turn them on based on the priority number.

For instance defense and resist toggles might be assigned priority 1, and damage toggles might be assigned priority 3, you would turn the toggles in priority 1 back on 1 at a time every 3 seconds or so, and when those toggles are on you would start turning on toggles in priority 2 and so on and so on. This would let the important toggles start to turn on early, while also meeting the devs desire to not overpower turning on toggles. It would also make it more fair to AT's that only use one or two toggles.

[Carnifax]

So some testing with Crom Cruaich, my Fire/Nature/Sorcery Corruptor. 

 

To test I used my own custom AE mission with the Lieuts being given the new Symphony hold as their only attack. All other mobs in the map are attackless. 

• Bug : Lifegiving Spores is still shutting off, not supressing. It's a toggle, it's (allegedly) offensive. It should supress. Although personally I think it should be treated as a Defensive Toggle and just supress while mezzed and then come immediately back once out. 
• Feedback : The counter starts from when I break out of the mez, whether via it expiring or via Rune of Protection (which I have) so that's good. 
• Feedback : 8 seconds is way too long. One Lieut could easily chain hold be before my Entangling could come back. 4 seconds, as I thought earlier, seems about right. On old systems if you're mezzed Recharge starts from the start of the mez (because the toggle goes off), so the "supression time" = "power activation time" so 8 seconds makes things worse for me overall. Either make it a flat 4 Seconds, or that one power unsupresses every 2.5 seconds after breaking free (how you'd decide the order is beyond me though). 

 

 

Edited July 14, 2022 by Carnifax

[Bopper]

16 minutes ago, Carnifax said:

One Lieut could easily chain hold be before my Entangling could come back

How did it compare with your live test?

[Burk]

16 hours ago, brass_eagle said:

 

Yeah, I can imagine it's probably a pita (if it's even possible) to code as Captain Powerhouse alluded to earlier. My fears were more that I would actively avoid using toggles even If they were in my build to avoid a longer suppression time. Being mezzed is a regular occurrence! Scaling suspension makes some sense, but it also means the more toggles you run the longer you are locked out all that was toggled. Seems like a not fun mechanic, but some could argue that it is fair. However, I quickly did some tabulating of cast times and if the above scenario were true, it would not be a big huge deal for most characters. Or at least as I previously thought. It would just instill a negative playstyle with certain set combinations (in my opinion) along with being a pain to code.

 

As I mentioned, I had some extra time so I quickly tabulated cast times from the test server power description forms. I only considered the four categories that do not have access to permanent, broad-spetrum Mez Protection with SOs and did not consider epics (Pool or AT) for now. Google sheets link is below for anyone interested in the full list. It's nothing fancy.

 

What IS interesting is the archetype most affected by this change is a Controller, as they are the only archetype to have offensive toggles in both Primary and Secondary with quite extensive summed cast times as @Burk gave examples of earlier in the thread. Support sets are the only category to have multiple offensive toggles per powerset so they got a special table.

 

 

Important take-aways:

• The average cast time per power out of these categories is 1.8s.
• No other category listed has more than 1 offensive toggle besides support.
• Nature Affinity has the highest total cast time at 5.13s with 2 toggles
  • (It's not Rad? See undocumented changes to Radiation Infection cast time on Brainstorm??)
  • Edit: someone pointed out to me that it is documented in the miscellaneous changes section. See: "Radiation Infection (All, except Crey): Cast time reduced from 3.1s to 1.5s."  TOTALLY missed it -- but I love it.
• The average total cast time per support set is 3.0s.

I think it's fair to say that, unless I've forgotten something major, a suspension window of 8 seconds is a bit long. It would be fair to make some judgements / assumptions for the suspension window like say "assuming 2 toggles at an average 2s cast time (rounding)" -- we assume 4 seconds toggle suspension and if you fall below that it's because of free actions not spent re-toggling... or something like that.

 

Oh also, if I've forgotten powers let me know. Just did this up quickly while making din-din.

 

Linky: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1A2Mbxzb9JJqiw_aCT2RlPFXMMgHCro15-SaVBZfZgqo/edit?usp=sharing

 

You did miss a number of blaster manipulation toggles, notably Fire Manipulation does have two: Cauterizing Aura and Hot Feet. But still, Controllers are the one to look at most.

[Carnifax]

31 minutes ago, Bopper said:

How did it compare with your live test?

*Has a bit of a fight with AE since the Group now contains an invalid Lieut, but wins eventually*

 

On Live I allowed myself to be held, waited for it to expire and was able to get Entangling back up and them locked down easily. So essentially the "This will save me" power "unsupressed" by recasting in 2.03 seconds. 

 

So a flat nerf for Squishies, especially those relying on Entangling, Choking or -ToHit debuff toggles to save them. So either 4 seconds or 2.5 seconds per power (if that's possible) is my recommendation for this. 

 

Edited July 14, 2022 by Carnifax

[Sovera]

2 hours ago, starvingduck said:

Hello!, I am not one of the normal beta testers, but I felt I should reply to this topic specific. First, I thank the devs for all the work and time they spend on a game where they get paid nothing.

 

As for the topic, I think the stated implementation will be bad, even in the said best case scenario where you drop four toggles or even six toggles. The reason is that toggles are not all created equal. There are toggles that add damage, there are toggles that add special effects, and there are toggles that are used for survivability. On the AT's I play when a survival toggle goes off I want it back on as soon as possible, A damage toggle can wait, or I may not even turn it back on for a while.

 

I do like the idea of toggles coming back on automatically though and I have a suggestion, although I do not know if it is possible.

Instead of turning back on all the toggles at the same time, give the toggles a priority number and turn them on based on the priority number.

For instance defense and resist toggles might be assigned priority 1, and damage toggles might be assigned priority 3, you would turn the toggles in priority 1 back on 1 at a time every 3 seconds or so, and when those toggles are on you would start turning on toggles in priority 2 and so on and so on. This would let the important toggles start to turn on early, while also meeting the devs desire to not overpower turning on toggles. It would also make it more fair to AT's that only use one or two toggles.

 

This is very well explained. It is the 'I-have-just-been-ressurected-and-am-toggling-up' scenario. My toggle row slots are always in the same position no matter the AT or combo set: 1st is my anti mez toggle. GO UP FIRST NAO!! Then my secondary (or primary) armor toggles since they are the beefiest. Then Tough, then Weave, then damage auras, then Combat Jumping, then Focused Accuracy.

 

I do not start with CJ or Focused accuracy.

[oedipus_tex]

I really appreciate the work that went into this change. This is a big topic, and I know a lot of work went into making this adjustment.

 

I am generally among those who think 8 seconds of suppression is too long. Is it not possible for the suppression to last the duration of the mezz? I don't know the specifics behind how the mechanics work, only that that is how I would have expected it to work, based on how suppression works for buff toggles.

 

The meta behind this is that builds that rely heavily on these sorts of powers normally seek mezz protection already. So, I wouldn't worry too much about a huge gameplay shift from making them reactive immediately once the mezz is over. People who rely heavily on the toggle are already seeking mezz protection, what this change is (hopefully) doing is reducing the pressure on them to seek out mezz protection just to make the power function. With that in mind, I think would you be warranted to have no extra lock out period at all. 

 

In any case, thanks for your work on this.

Edited July 14, 2022 by oedipus_tex

[Burk]

12 minutes ago, oedipus_tex said:

I am generally among those who think 8 seconds of suppression is too long. Is it not possible for the suppression to last the duration of the mezz?

 

The suppression starts at the moment the mezz is broken, not at the moment you get mezzed.