issue 27 Focused Feedback: Toggle Suspension and Suppression

[Bopper]

Adding to Brass Eagle's reply, the implementation of the toggle suppression is via a target requires. Basically it will not be able to affect a target unless the requirement check is satisfied. In this case, the requirement is usually "have you *not* been mezzed in the last 8 seconds?"

 

But toggles that have Activation Effect Groups (which many blaster sustains have) do not care about checking for a target, it's automatically hitting self only. So the effects in the AEG will apply to you even if the target requirements fail.

[Burk]

4 hours ago, brass_eagle said:

Though I don't get:

 

"Lifegiving Spores spawns a pet like Voltaic Sentinel. I think it was stated that would be a very different kind of tech." --

 

This was posited in the post you quoted?? In the next sentence...

 

I believe that was edited in afterward, or maybe I hadn't reloaded the page because I didn't see it there at the time.

[ironjoe]

I'm just going to add in again how great this change is on Peacebringers. Makes playing multiple forms so much nicer. Thank you for that change and I will leave you all to argue the time for offensive toggles.

[TrelNargil]

   Personally, I like this QOL addition, though the 8 second length is a bit too much imo generally speaking, and a direct killing effect specifically for some. Out of all sets, the Kheldon's appear to have gained the most benefit from this addition, while controllers, dominators, and the like recieved the least. Maybe this is by design (?); I don't know as the technical aspects of this and the numbers therein are a bit beyond me I am sorry to say. However I will mention this; 8 seconds is way too long all things considered, especially when you add in the fact that this is an addition to the time you are mezzed in most cases (even if it's only by a little bit).

   4-5 seconds seems to be a far more reasonable compromise I would think, and as in life, compromise in many cases is a key in solving an issue. I would also like to mention that I can see the validity in some upset in not being able to choose which toggles come up first, and I for one would love to hear how & what calculation is used to determined which turns on first as I am very curious by nature. 🙂 But also, please consider this. There are macro's that have been created that will not only allow one to turn on toggles one at a time with the press of ONE button, but also let you choose the order in which they are turned on.

   And if a person has a lot of toggles (like over 6 of them for example), this can be of great benefit, and in most cases people would rather have this option of selecting which toggles get turned on first, then have the system choose it for them in some way, WITH an additional 8 seconds added to the person being mezzed. So maybe there is a way under power customization to let people choose if they want to use this feature or not? Or maybe even create a new seperate "power" toggle everyone has beginning at 1st level that when activated will turn on this QOL feature instead?

   After all, more options and/or choices are always better than being stuck with something a person may not like. I don't know, just trying to come up with an positive suggestion is all, as on another shard this "power toggle" option was created for the use of KB>KD, with the penalty that if you used it you dealt a little less damage, and that was a great addition & choice that everyone loved. So just trying to think out of the box here. 🙂 In either case, yeah... 8 seconds is too long imo; 4-5 seconds seems better. That is all for now... 🙂

 

Peace...

Edited July 15, 2022 by TrelNargil

[Myrmidon]

While @AustinSmith and I were  testing Defender Sonic Attack, I took the liberty of also testing Toggle Suspension with Repel (Knockdown). While it worked perfectly, eight seconds is a llllooonnnggg time to wait for that toggle to begin working again. I believe that the Suspension number might have to come down a tad.

Edited July 16, 2022 by Myrmidon

[Nixeras]

I'm not a fan of this change if only because of the 8 seconds after being mezzed before you can reactivate your 'offensive' toggles. I love the other parts of the changes, the toggles  suspending for transformations on kheldians and granite and such is great. The mezz portion of this either needs to be completely reverted, or have the time either reduced to a few seconds (1 or 2) or removed altogether.

[SwitchFade]

Real life actual situational math inside, open at your own risk of economic recession...

 

 

50 fire/kin controller

Warrior map in PI

54/8

Hot feet turns off when an LT or boss stuns

 

New beta: I no longer have to retoggle, but the power will not reactivate/retoggle for 8 seconds, which starts AFTER I recover.

 

The fun stuffs on beta - When I am stunned I notice it within 1-2 seconds as I stumble about like I'm three sheets to the wind and my key presses are futile. I hit an insp or clarion, another 1-2 seconds. Now, my hotfooties get the 8 second holeshot.

 

 

 

Live: Recharge on this power is 6 seconds on this toon with her level of recharge and the Retoggle is a  1.7 second animation.

 

The fun stuffs on live - When I am stunned I notice it within 1-2 seconds as I stumble about life a kung Fu master and my key presses do nothing. I hit an insp or clarion, another 1-2 seconds. That's 2-4 seconds time the power has been recharging and off 

 

Math average....ish:

 

On live, 3.5 seconds of the 6 second recharge on hot feet have elapsed since I was stunned and I am released and ready to hit alt+4 to fire hot feet, leaving only 2.5 seconds left on the recharge timer until I CAN actually fire it, plus the 1.7 second animation. And that's if I'm fast, clarion is not recharging and I'm not out of Bf's, and need to combine to make one on the quick. Some of the time I may be stunned, combining and breaking free for 4-5 seconds.

 

So, mafs of the fastest normal time elapsed from stun to run: 3.5 seconds of no hot feet whilst punch drunk, 2.5 more recharge and 1.7 seconds whilst GRRAnimation.

3.5+2.5+1.7 = 7.7s.

 

New beta: 3.5 seconds of no hotshoes while blitzed and... 8 SECONDS while I detox (again, this is fastest possible comparing vodka to vodka, if I'm in the above scenario of no clarion or combining insps.... Sad panda...)

 

More mafs on fastest time on beta, stun to run 3.5+8 =11.5s

 

I'm gonna make this next part pop

 

 

***** 11.5 seconds with no stinkfoot on beta vs 7.7 seconds of no stinkfoot on live, common core teaches me... Jack stuffings!

 

But mafs teaches me this is a 4 second difference, in the wrong direction of train A leaving station B at holy crap C *****

 

In this case this is not a QoL change, because I know I have been stunned and I can quickly alt+4 to retoggle quicker than leaving it alone.

 

That's 4 seconds of 27+27 less damage per tick, 4 seconds where the -res proc cannot fire resulting in foes that take less damage if it did,  4 seconds of mobs that can run quickly so their AI is not confused resulting in 4 seconds of increased damage I take due to that.

 

Same lvl 50 controller alt build with the dreaded kinetics repel on, slotted with +recharge. 4 seconds of lower recharge as well.

 

QoL, to me, would be not having to retoggle in this case and not having slimetoes for 4 seconds AFTER I'm free.

 

That's a QoL change: no retoggle needed and only 4.2 seconds of no hot feet.

 

Beta is an active nerf, in this case, NEH?!

 

New system will cause me to suffer to compensate for some hooligan with 3 offensive toggles, so they don't all pop up at once, vs if they had to retoggle 3 at 1.7s each.

 

Cut that 8 seconds down to 4 and be happy that you gave that hooligan a 3.4 second buff, or figure out how to have the toggles delay in series as they come back up with a 1 second delay between each.

 

Else it's a nerf for most

 

edit: after much reaction time testing, all 3.5s here are actually 2.5s in my gameplay. Not going to edit all formulae; note all 3.5 are 2.5, and end 11.5s is actually 10.5s.

Edited July 30, 2022 by SwitchFade

[SwitchFade]

I also have to add Devs, I get why you're doing this and appreciate the goodness of toggle suppression, but this huge delay, along with the other small things like the defense changes (which I get and don't mind in a VACUUM) become additive and disheartening. Causing a pause before I log in. You feel me?

[Frosticus]

This is a big nerf to my poison defender who lives and dies by venomous gas bolstering my offense and weakening enemies.

When that toggle drops the scales tip immediately in favour of the enemy. It is priority one to get it back up, or die. 

 

roughly 4.7 vs 8 seconds post breakfree.

 

 

This is a big quality of life improvement for playing semi-afk in easy content though I guess.

[Mezmera]

Having just run my tank through the new relentless ITF I like this change and it feels warranted if all these wicked holds are going to be thrown around.  Prior to this on the rare occasion that my Against All Odds got knocked off from some Widow hold or something I'd forget to look down to turn it back on when I'm usually in the heat of things.  Sometimes it would be more than these 8 seconds so not having to worry about this now is great. 

 

But I do see how some need to be quick to get some of these toggles back up and running.  I don't know about anyone running 4 offensive toggles but I can see 2 being on for a lot of characters.  Put me down in the camp for a 6s suppression.   

[Alouu]

I was speculating about a formulaic approach to the timer:

 

Something like Suppression time = Animation Time + Base Recharge / 2.5

 

Here's some examples of times that would give for a few powers:

• Enervating Field: 4.70s
• Darkest Night: 7.17s
• Rise to the Challenge 7.00s
• Blazing Aura: 3.63s
• Snow Storm: 6.03s
• Snow Storm (Epic Version): 10.03s

One advantage of this would be that by tuning a power's base recharge and animation time characteristics, the suppression time of the power can also be tuned.

At the same time the ability to tune how generous or harsh the suppression timer works across the board is retained, by editing the "2.5" value.

 

A disadvantage is that some powers may require tuning.

[Yomo Kimyata]

Here's an opinion that should annoy *everyone*:

 

When I first saw toggle suppression, I thought, "Jeez!  Why do the devs have to dumb down *everything*?"

 

Then I saw the 8 second rule and thought, "Oh, that's fair then, a quality of life issue that basically offsets the time you would otherwise take."  There are plenty of times that my toggle drops and I don't even *notice* it for ten seconds.  If I am mezzed, then usually my first few seconds are getting away to safety; I'm probably not going to spend the next 2.68 seconds reinstating my toggles.  I mean, if you don't want to get mezzed in the first place, there are plenty of ways to make that happen.  Higher ranged defense, break frees, power choices, etc.

 

So now, everyone seems to be taking this gift and haggling over price.  No mom, I want TWO lollipops!  I get it that the devs want to provide a gift that is relatively balanced.  8 seconds seems reasonable to me.  Maybe 7.8 seconds.  Or 8.2.

 

Serious suggestion:  can you make this an option for players to opt into?  Default is how things currently are, and opting in gives you toggle suppression with however long a cool down as the devs decide?

[GM Vayek]

On 7/14/2022 at 10:42 PM, GM Crumpet said:

Speaking as a player and not as a GM I like this. I often skip offence toggles because much of the time I find it really irritating to have to reactivate them after they go down, and often in the heat of a fight I don't notice they stop until quite a while after. Or they go down, I turn them on, they immediately go down again. Personally I'd quite like the suppression time to be shorter, maybe 4 or 5 seconds, but I'm not going to complain. My builds will change considerably on some of my alts as I like the offense toggles, I just didn't like the fact they went off completely.

 

 

 

Also as a player, I love playing Kheldians and Stone Armor. and this update is such a game changer for players like me! This one update is worth all of page for 4 for me haha

[Frosticus]

Looking at this a bit more I think it is fair to good for a lot of powers.

ex Artic Air - even with a end game build it would take about as long to get back up and running 

ex Offensive toggles on armored characters - they might not even be paying attention to notice it went down as they aren't commonly mezzed

 

It is a sizable downgrade for some powers that are often vital for other characters

ex. Hurricane/venomous gas - when these powers drop you drop shortly after. On my stormy I can get it going way faster than this suppression

 

I dunno, I really like my aggressive debuffers and in playing them aggressively I make sure that if I do get mezzed those powers are up way faster than this suppression period.

 

For me the QoL improvement isn't worth the downgrade.

5-6 seconds is probably ideal. 

 

 

[oedipus_tex]

Lots of good feedback.

 

 

Part of the reason I'm not super stoked about the 8 second lockout is that I have lots of characters who have been dealing with the detoggle logic for a long time. For most of these characters, I have "solved for it" by pursuing reliable mezz protection. The amount of pressure to do that on certain builds, e.g. Ice Control, was very high. With an 8 second lockout, that pressure is still high. It's not really trading up and away from the reason the suppression is desirable.

 

Keep in mind that most top end characters probably won't be dealing with the 8 second lockout that much, because that is long and punishing enough that they I'll  continue to build to avoid it. I think what we're really seeking is a balance point where you can say "I'm going to risk not running mezz protection." 

To me, just the fact that the toggle shuts down at all while you are mezzed is pretty intense on its own. There being an extra duration on top of that I think puts us back where we were.

 

Also let's keep in mind this timer is 8 seconds plus the time you are mezzed. Powers begin to recharge the second they detoggle. If you are mezzed for 6 seconds, you are actually locked out of the power for 6 + 8 = 14 seconds. An 8 second timer on top of the mezz duration is a very long lockout, longer in most instances than the recharge of most toggle powers.

[Marshal_General]

Is it possible to add this for the transformation travel powers like panther?

[Stormwalker]

4 hours ago, Yomo Kimyata said:

Here's an opinion that should annoy *everyone*:

 

When I first saw toggle suppression, I thought, "Jeez!  Why do the devs have to dumb down *everything*?"

 

Then I saw the 8 second rule and thought, "Oh, that's fair then, a quality of life issue that basically offsets the time you would otherwise take."  There are plenty of times that my toggle drops and I don't even *notice* it for ten seconds.  If I am mezzed, then usually my first few seconds are getting away to safety; I'm probably not going to spend the next 2.68 seconds reinstating my toggles.  I mean, if you don't want to get mezzed in the first place, there are plenty of ways to make that happen.  Higher ranged defense, break frees, power choices, etc.

 

So now, everyone seems to be taking this gift and haggling over price.  No mom, I want TWO lollipops!  I get it that the devs want to provide a gift that is relatively balanced.  8 seconds seems reasonable to me.  Maybe 7.8 seconds.  Or 8.2.

 

Serious suggestion:  can you make this an option for players to opt into?  Default is how things currently are, and opting in gives you toggle suppression with however long a cool down as the devs decide?

 

While I agree with your suggestion, I disagree with your characterization of those concerned about the duration of the suppression.

 

Sure, for someone who has three or four offensive toggles, honestly, it probably does take them longer than 8 seconds realistically to get them restored.   But for someone who only has one offensive toggle, they'd probably have it back up in considerably less time than that (presuming that they're paying attention).

 

Even in the multiple-offensive-toggle case, it should be noted that how long you're going to take to get your toggles back up - and how focused you are on doing so - depends on what set you are.  If I am on my Rad/Rad Defender, my #1 focus is absolutely going to be getting my offensive toggles back up ASAP, because my "offensive" toggles are my primary survival mechanism.   If I don't get them back ASAP, I am going to die, quickly, and possibly the other squishies in my team will die, too.

 

Perhaps the suppression should end in a staggered fashion, somehow?  One toggle un-suppresses every 2 seconds after the mez ends?  This would more closely mimic how quickly they'd get them restored if they were doing it themselves, even if they don't get to control which one comes up first.

[oedipus_tex]

25 minutes ago, Stormwalker said:

 

While I agree with your suggestion, I disagree with your characterization of those concerned about the duration of the suppression.

 

Sure, for someone who has three or four offensive toggles, honestly, it probably does take them longer than 8 seconds realistically to get them restored.   But for someone who only has one offensive toggle, they'd probably have it back up in considerably less time than that (presuming that they're paying attention).

 

Even in the multiple-offensive-toggle case, it should be noted that how long you're going to take to get your toggles back up - and how focused you are on doing so - depends on what set you are.  If I am on my Rad/Rad Defender, my #1 focus is absolutely going to be getting my offensive toggles back up ASAP, because my "offensive" toggles are my primary survival mechanism.   If I don't get them back ASAP, I am going to die, quickly, and possibly the other squishies in my team will die, too.

 

Perhaps the suppression should end in a staggered fashion, somehow?  One toggle un-suppresses every 2 seconds after the mez ends?  This would more closely mimic how quickly they'd get them restored if they were doing it themselves, even if they don't get to control which one comes up first.

 

 

My apologies for posting multiple times on this topic, but you are correct and this is something I want to highlight.

 

 

Right now if you get toggled out of one of Radiation Infection by a Hold that lasts 6 seconds, if you had no Recharge in the power at all or Global Recharge, the power would be available to re-toggle 8 seconds after the initial mezz. That's because powers start Recharging the moment the mezz starts, not the moment the mezz ends. Powers continue to recharge while you are mezzed, and when you pop out of the mezz, you're often able to almost immediately toggle bacj uo.

With this new system, if you were mezzed for 6 seconds, the timer doesn't start until the mezz ends. So you have the 6 seconds the mezz lasts, plus the 8 second penalty period. Since the penalty period begins at the end of the mezz, you're paying a total downtime of 14 seconds where before, in most cases, you paid only for the duration of the mezz.

You do gain the small advantage of not losing the animation time, of course. Given the other downsides of toggle powers, I think the 8 second penalty should be eliminated. 

 

If it's very important to game balance to keep the concept of 8 seconds, an alternative would be to make the 8 seconds apply the moment the mezz activates, and not the moment it ends. In that configuration, if you were mezzed for 6 seconds, you get 8 seconds of lockout, not 14.  

Edited July 16, 2022 by oedipus_tex

[Burnt Umber]

For my Kheldians and my Stone Armor tank, the changes to toggles is very welcomed, if not ecstatically so.

 

Similarly, my squishier characters who have offensive toggles like the change.  It makes playing them a great deal more convenient and fun.  And like a poster above, I'm probably taking more than 8 seconds to get back into the fight/toggled back on.  That said, such characters are likely to be in the middle of melee and running only one or two offensive toggles so 8 seconds might be a tad long (maybe 6 seconds would be better?).

 

Overall, I love this change.  It's been really fun testing it out.

[ForeverLaxx]

Have they ever come out and said exactly why "offensive toggles" have to have the suspension (previously re-toggle) drawback? Standard defensive toggles don't have to worry about this under the justification that defensive toggles are needed to stay alive, but aren't nearly all "offensive toggles" just defensive toggles with extra steps? You already have to recast them against every spawn and are reduced in power thanks to the Purple Patch, so why do they have to suffer even more drawbacks in the first place?

[arthurh35353]

I kind of wish that Squishie's epic/ancillary pool armors actually didn't suppress at all, so the only thing that should be capable of dropping their armor toggle protection/resistance is endurance drains.

 

I doubt it would actually improve Defender/Corruptor/Mastermind/Controller/Dominators/Blasters survivability much, but a little bit would be nice. At least you might die a little slower.

 

Probably pie in the sky dreaming here.

Edited July 17, 2022 by arthurh35353
Forgot an AT due to headache

[Bopper]

11 minutes ago, arthurh35353 said:

I kind of wish that Squishie's epic/ancillary pool armors actually didn't suppress at all, so the only thing that should be capable of dropping their armor toggle protection/resistance is endurance drains.

 

I doubt it would actually improve Defender/Corruptor/Mastermind/Controller/Dominators survivability much, but a little bit would be nice. At least you might die a little slower.

 

Probably pie in the sky dreaming here.

Which powers specifically are you referring to? The only toggles that get suppressed are offensive in nature (as in impacts a foe directly in a negative way - either via damage or debuffs). If you're seeing non-offensive survival toggles do this, I'll take a look.

Edited July 16, 2022 by Bopper

[arthurh35353]

18 minutes ago, Bopper said:

Which powers specifically are you referring to? The only toggles that get suppressed are offensive in nature (as in impacts a foe directly in a negative way - either via damage or debuffs). If you're seeing non-offensive survival toggles do this, I'll take a look.

I'm pretty sure that the Resistance and Defense portions of Epic/Ancillary armor currently suppress, even if they don't detoggle. (I double checked, they do indeed suppress, even if they don't detoggle).

 

This would be a small QoL.

 

Edited July 16, 2022 by arthurh35353

[Bopper]

6 minutes ago, arthurh35353 said:

I'm pretty sure that the Resistance and Defense portions of Epic/Ancillary armor currently suppress, even if they don't detoggle. (I double checked, they do indeed suppress, even if they don't detoggle).

 

This would be a small QoL.

 

I see what you mean now. Technically that isn't suppression (like how it's being used in this thread). When you are held, the effects are being canceled. When the mez wears off it goes back to working.

[arthurh35353]

31 minutes ago, Bopper said:

I see what you mean now. Technically that isn't suppression (like how it's being used in this thread). When you are held, the effects are being canceled. When the mez wears off it goes back to working.

Isn't that the definition of suppression?

I can't remember if the End Cost is suppressed also though.

 

(Edit: Though, to be honest I wish upon a star that the squishies Epic/Ancillary Armor toggles (only) got 4.0 to 6.0 points of Mess protection to holds and 1-2 other types (and some more mezz resistances) as part of the armor toggles.)

Edited July 16, 2022 by arthurh35353