issue 27 Focused Feedback: Toggle Suspension and Suppression

[Troo]

4 hours ago, csr said:

To me it comes down to the definition of "offensive" toggles including debuff powers whose main purpose is actually mitigation.  But then a lot of the better ones also have offensive components.  Rad Inf is mostly about the -ToHit, but it also does -Def.  Enervating Field does both -DMG and -Res.  Venomous Gas does  all those things.  But many, such as Time's Juncture, Darkest Night, Lifegiving Spores, Snow Storm and even Hurricane, are pure mitigation.  Having some of those out for 8s is a bit painful.

 

groan.. I agree, -ToHit is my defense on many characters.

[Zepp]

3 hours ago, Troo said:

 

groan.. I agree, -ToHit is my defense on many characters.

I think a good number of players have brought up this issue with Blasters in particular, but there are a lot of mixed toggles that are getting hit by this. I like the concept overall (I have a triform Kheld), but the 8s delay seems excessive if not completely unnecessary...

[ExeErdna]

From what I played it's a buff for /Sonic Controllers or Masterminds that have that sleep hole and get "sniped" by a Mez when they enter a room. So I can have toggles up and not have to worry about it now.  It legit didn't feel like 8 seconds I got that quick "Sleep" pose, recovered and I could hear my pet was still affecting mobs with the sonic toggles. If this were Live with my MM I would have to recast all 4 of the toggles I use and that's way longer than 8 secs.

[WindDemon21]

3 hours ago, ExeErdna said:

From what I played it's a buff for /Sonic Controllers or Masterminds that have that sleep hole and get "sniped" by a Mez when they enter a room. So I can have toggles up and not have to worry about it now.  It legit didn't feel like 8 seconds I got that quick "Sleep" pose, recovered and I could hear my pet was still affecting mobs with the sonic toggles. If this were Live with my MM I would have to recast all 4 of the toggles I use and that's way longer than 8 secs.

Um. Sonic Resonance only has two offensive toggles, disruption aura (the -res aura), and sonic repulsion (the kb). You're getting confused.

[csr]

9 hours ago, WindDemon21 said:

Um. Sonic Resonance only has two offensive toggles, disruption aura (the -res aura), and sonic repulsion (the kb). You're getting confused.

 

He could be using Enflame for a 3rd.  Does Spirit Ward count as an "Offensive" toggle?

[Wavicle]

1 minute ago, csr said:

 

Does Spirit Ward count as an "Offensive" toggle?

 

I don’t think so…

 

Maybe there’s something in an epic pool?

Edited July 24, 2022 by Wavicle

[WindDemon21]

They didn't specify anything else, just sonic resonance. As per spirit ward, it doesn't affect enemies, but given how it does toggle off when mezzed currently I Imagine it uses the same coding.

[csr]

17 hours ago, Zepp said:

I think a good number of players have brought up this issue with Blasters in particular, but there are a lot of mixed toggles that are getting hit by this. I like the concept overall (I have a triform Kheld), but the 8s delay seems excessive if not completely unnecessary...

 

Wait... are Blaster sustains with debuffs going down for 8s?  I guess I have a few things to test out tonight once Live iTrials are done.

[Booper]

26 minutes ago, csr said:

 

Wait... are Blaster sustains with debuffs going down for 8s?  I guess I have a few things to test out tonight once Live iTrials are done.

The sustains use Activation Effect Groups which ignores the suppression. The effects not using AEGs will suppress 

[Zepp]

1 hour ago, csr said:

 

Wait... are Blaster sustains with debuffs going down for 8s?  I guess I have a few things to test out tonight once Live iTrials are done.

I believe that those that contain an "offensive" component are effected. One clear example is Cauterizing Aura for Fire

 

Edit-I tested Cauterizing Aura: "Offensive" components of the toggle suppress for the interminably long 8s, while the rest of the toggle is unsuppressed. So I continued healing while held, but did not cause damage.

Edited July 24, 2022 by Zepp

[Frosticus]

8 seconds is fine, but the little used (or valued) mechanic of mez resistance should reduce the suppression window imo.

[csr]

7 hours ago, Booper said:

The sustains use Activation Effect Groups which ignores the suppression. The effects not using AEGs will suppress 

 

Does that means all the Child Effects in the AEG don't suspend?  According to CoD2 many of the sustains that do similar things show as being implemented in oddly different ways.  And quite a few don't show the use of an AEG at all.  Only those with an offensive component appear to.  If the AEG Child Effects don't suspend (I assume that's sort of the point of an AEG... so that things like that apply to the whole group), then it looks as if all the sustains should continue working.  I wonder if I still have my AE mission for testing Blaster sustains on Cryptic...

Edited July 24, 2022 by csr

[csr]

10 hours ago, WindDemon21 said:

They didn't specify anything else, just sonic resonance. As per spirit ward, it doesn't affect enemies, but given how it does toggle off when mezzed currently I Imagine it uses the same coding.

 

Spirit Ward detoggles if mezzed on Brainstorm.  It appears to be unchanged from Live.

 

Enflame appears to Suspend.

Edited July 24, 2022 by csr

[Wavicle]

Spirit Ward ought to suppress instead of detoggling imo 

[Parabola]

I have to echo the thoughts expressed by others on the different ways offensive and defensive toggles are treated. I am absolutely all about game balance and avoiding powercreep but this is one of those areas of legacy game design that could really use a fresh look. Why do different toggles need to react to mez differently at all? Is it really a significant balance point that must be maintained?

 

One of the more attractive things about this game is the variety of ways it allows you to take the game on. Buffs and debuffs are potentially really powerful compared to what tends to be allowed in other games. However, debuffs are still limited by a couple of factors and any character relying on them for survival is always in for a tougher ride than a conventionally armoured character. The purple patch is a big factor, and in my opinion it is too biased against debuffs, and another is the whole issue of mez.

 

Characters that rely on debuffs for protection are generally those without native mez protection. No other subgroup of characters run such a risk of most of their mitigation being suddenly turned off. Buffs stick around (and aren't cut down by the purple patch) and armoured characters have mez protection built in. I have gripes about the whole implementation of mez in this game but relevant to this discussion in particular is why do we not just suppress 'offensive' toggles just for the duration of the mez?

 

If there has to be a balance point with cast times and damaging toggles then that could make a certain amount of sense. In that case could these not be split into their own category? So damaging toggles require manual retoggle or have the kind of delay being trialled here, but non-damaging debuff toggles just behave exactly like buff toggles currently do?

[AlwaysAPrice]

1 hour ago, Parabola said:

Why do different toggles need to react to mez differently at all? Is it really a significant balance point that must be maintained?

 

Only reason I've been able to think of is that offensive toggles generally work on 'ticks', reapplying (or rolling tohit to apply) their power's effects every second or two, and it's probably easier to suppress the ticking of the toggle than to notify each instance of the effects they've placed whether or not the caster is mezzed. So a small suppression period could be warranted just for the sake of ensuring that blink-and-you'll-miss-it mez, like a sleep that hits you in the middle of a bunch of other attacks that wake you right back up, has any meaningful effect by giving the toggle's effect a chance to actually wear off before it can start ticking again.

 

Aside from that, I would really rather offensive toggles just be given the same QoL/buff-style treatment defensive toggles received; defensive toggles come right back into effect when the mez breaks even though they also have recharge and animation times that are fully bypassed by the process.

 

My hunch is offensive suppression was implemented because maybe there's something in advanced difficulty content forcing melee to contend with mez for the first time since Ghost Widow? Certain tanks getting their taunt/damage/debuff/control auras shut down could have bad ramifications for the rest of the team if they have to stop generating aggro for 10-12 seconds toggling everything back on. If that's what led to this it's a pretty good compromise for that specific circumstance, it just comes as a bit of a sideswipe to several support sets in other circumstances.

[Luminara]

36 minutes ago, Parabola said:

Why do different toggles need to react to mez differently at all? Is it really a significant balance point that must be maintained?

 

If balance is the goal, this won't achieve it.

 

Debuff toggles are subject to the AoE target limitation of 16.  That's a hard number.  There's no gaming it, there's no wiggle room, it can't be increased in any way by the player, it's defined and measurable.  If anything, the AoE target cap of 16 is functionally lower for debuff toggle users, because the AoE target cap doesn't exclude crap like Rikti Monkeys or Sky Raider FFGs or -XX critters appearing in higher level spawns, things which pose very little or no threat.  Yet they're still counted against the number of targets the user is affecting, leaving real threats undebuffed.  Additionally, debuff toggles are subject to purple patch reductions on top of enemies having improved stats as level differential increases, an additional layer of loss of efficiency that buff toggle users never have to deal with.

 

Buff toggles, on the other hand, affect an unlimited number of targets inversely, by adjusting the character's stats, thus bypassing all target caps.  There is no hard number here, no limitation. Put a character with Maneuvers in a room with 1000 enemies, and all 1000 enemies will have a reduced chance to hit.  Put a character with Darkest Night in the same room and 984 of those 1000 enemies are utterly unaffected.  For a character with buff toggles, it doesn't matter if there's a FFG or -XX enemy, or ten, or a hundred, because they don't impact the efficiency of the character's mitigation, they aren't tabulated and counted toward a target cap, they don't matter at all in that context.  And buff toggles always provide their mitigation at the listed values, since those numbers aren't adjusted by purple patch mechanics.  And with all of that, they're also benefitting from the existing suppression system (again, effect cancelation per tick and only for the duration of mez)... and the vast majority of buff toggles are only available to archetypes which also have status protection, so they're rarely suppressed anyway.

 

Now, one could attempt to argue that debuff toggles provide mitigation for everyone, which is why they "need" more restrictions, but... so do toggles like Maneuvers, Shadow Fall, Dispersion Bubble, and they don't stop working when enemies number 17 through 1000 attack, they don't use a suppression with several seconds of wait time attached after mez expires, they aren't subject to purple patch reductions...  Jesus, a tanker or brute or Kheldian, or any character capable of holding the aggro cap worth of enemies and surviving, isn't dealing with those restrictions, and they're providing mitigation for everyone.

 

There's never been balance between buff toggles and debuff toggles, and buff toggles are one of the worst balance problems in the overall game because they don't obey the same rules.

 

And now we have an aggro adjustment on the test server in addition to this "fuck you, debuff toggle user" suppression, which is going to further emphasize the problems debuff toggles were already dealing with, while benefiting buff toggle users.  "Oh, look, now I have 34 critters pissed off at me, and my toggle is a debuff with a cap of 16, so I'm fucking toast.  Guess I should've made a buff toggle character so my damage mitigation would IGNORE THE TARGET AND AGGRO CAPS ENTIRELY."

 

Debuff toggles don't need any further restrictions.  Especially not with the aggro adjustments in this update.  What they need is equivalency with buff toggles, and this cockamamie idea of locking players out of access to their debuff toggles for a few seconds every time they're mezzed is just going to make the lack of equivalency worse.  Just set them to use the same cancel effect as buff toggles, @Captain Powerhouse, @Faultline, @Booper, or whoever's responsible for this, and call it done; or start hammering buff toggles into the same rule set that debuff toggles are forced to comply with and put this on hold until you can apply it to every toggle.

[Booper]

Everyone, this Focused Feedback thread is for the changes made on Page 4, (what's on Beta). The change, as they relate to Toggle Suppression of offensive toggles (a toggle that negatively impacts a foe directly), is replacing the detoggling-when-mezzed mechanic with a suppression-after-mezzed mechanic. Speaking about those changes is appropriate for this topic.

 

If anyone wants to discuss removing mez penalties altogether from offensive toggles, that is best served as a suggestion post in the Suggestion & Feeback forums, as that type of game change is outside the scope of what's being done on Page 4 and would be off-topic for this thread.

[GM Impervium]

Hey folks.

I know that hiding posts that ask questions is a bad look, but if a dev comes in here and says "THIS is what this thread is about", don't start hassling them about what you think it should be about.

Stay on-topic please. Thank you.

[Booper]

8 minutes ago, ForeverLaxx said:

In any case, a suppression time of "zero" after mez is gone is definitely within the purview and scope of this thread

 

A 0s suppression is not on the table. This is a Quality of Life change, not a power-creep change. A balance must be found between having to retoggle powers (as it is on live) versus having a suppression timeout that still captures the penalty but with the quality of life improvement of not having to spend time on re-activating those toggles; allowing you to spend that time on anything else.

 

If you want penalties removed, then make the suggestion on Suggestions & Feedback forum. Here, we are discussing the changes as I mentioned in my previous post.

[WindDemon21]

5 minutes ago, Booper said:

 

A 0s suppression is not on the table. This is a Quality of Life change, not a power-creep change. A balance must be found between having to retoggle powers (as it is on live) versus having a suppression timeout that still captures the penalty but with the quality of life improvement of not having to spend time on re-activating those toggles; allowing you to spend that time on anything else.

 

If you want penalties removed, then make the suggestion on Suggestions & Feedback forum. Here, we are discussing the changes as I mentioned in my previous post.

Thank you for at least directly saying that. While I don't agree that it shouldn't at least be on the table, I do still feel it is completely within the realm of possibility though given all the other arguments me and others have said (ie, its not actually power creep when you look at them versus defensive toggles, its just the same as them but works differently).

 

But ok, then since, no matter what we say its not going to be zero, back to discussing the length, which I'll restate the 3second timeframe seems the most reasonable given all the previous discussions.

[xColdxFusionx]

Would there be a way to make the toggle suppression dynamic based on how many toggles needed to be turned back on? Say, 2-3 seconds per power suppressed?

 

Currently, 8 seconds is equal to, approximately, activating 4 damage auras. I understand that there needs to be some delay to prevent this change from being a straight buff, but that's a LOT of downtime compared to live if you're only retoggling one or two, which is a pretty typical gameplay experience. If the delay could be reeled back dynamically depending on how many powers are being suppressed, this would allow builds that rely on only one or two toggles to get back to fighting form faster while still keeping the delay so that toggle-intensive builds aren't being over-buffed by this change.

 

If this isn't possible, I would at least reduce the duration of the lockout to something a bit closer to typical live timings, like 4-5 seconds. 8 seconds is heavily overcompensating and it feels like a number that was chosen with a small percentage of players in mind.

[csr]

I think 8s is too long, mostly because from what I'm seeing there's sort of a Catch-22 going on: my toons that get the most QoL benefit from Suspension instead of retoggling are those least likely to get mezzed and least likely to need their offensive toggles back quickly, while those most likely to get mezzed lose the ability to prioritize getting their protection back after getting free of the mez.

 

Anyway... Cap P has stated the number has already been changed, so at this point it's probably best to see what's in the next patch before testing further.  At least for me.

[Booper]

33 minutes ago, xColdxFusionx said:

Would there be a way to make the toggle suppression dynamic based on how many toggles needed to be turned back on? Say, 2-3 seconds per power suppressed?

No, there isn't a way to know how many toggles need to be turned back on. 

[Jacke]

The toggle suppression for Granite Armor toons and Kheldians are excellent and definitely should go into the release of Page 4.

 

Post-Mez Offensive Toggle Suppression is another matter entirely.

 

 

5 hours ago, Booper said:

[ This Focused Feedback Thread is about Toggle Suppression, not Mez.... ]

 

People bring up Mez because it's Mez that causes Post-Mez Offensive Toggle Suppression.  (It's too bad at least starting on fixing Mez isn't on the table this Page.)

 

 

4 hours ago, Booper said:

A 0s suppression is not on the table. This is a Quality of Life change, not a power-creep change.

 

A 8s suppression is not a Quality of Life change.  It's a massive nerf.  Especially considering how @Luminara thoroughly pointed out above how weak debuffs are compared to buffs.  Especially because the characters providing debuffs are very vulnerable to Mez and will be facing this nerf a lot.

 

If this 8s suppression can't be seriously reduced, to at most 4s or less, then I suggest you drop Post-Mez Offensive Toggle Suppression from Page 4 completely.  Because the better Quality of Life selection here is to have the toggles drop and after the Mez toggle them on again, which will happen in a lot less time than 8s.  With the toggles the players consider most important be toggled on first.