Another nail in the Brute coffin

[Infinitum]

Just now, Erratic1 said:

 

Pretty sure with 7 Corruptors/Defenders the 8th person could be afk.

 

Missing the point - what you say is true but if the player is capable it will expedite the TF further

[Spaghetti Betty]

7 minutes ago, Erratic1 said:

 

At the point where you have 7 Corruptors/Defenders I seriously question that the 8th person matters.

Sure, but having a fat sack of HP to manage aggro and soak up unresistable damage makes the process go way smoother and guarantees far less team wipes.

[Erratic1]

23 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

 

Missing the point - what you say is true but if the player is capable it will expedite the TF further

 

19 minutes ago, Spaghetti Betty said:

Sure, but having a fat sack of HP to manage aggro and soak up unresistable damage makes the process go way smoother and guarantees far less team wipes.

 

Well yeah, an 8th person with a pulse doing anything will expedite a faster TF. The point is that the difference between a buffed Tanker's damage and a buffed Brute's damage when factored against the rest of the team's damage when everyone else is a buffer doesn't seem like it's going to be earthshaking.

 

Let's go with 4 Defenders (ranged damage scale 0.65, damage limit 400%), 3 Corruptors (ranged damage scale 0.75, damage limit 500%)...that is 4*0.65*4 + 3*0.75*5 = 21.65. Then add a Brute (damage scale 0.75, damage limit 700%) or Tanker (damage scale 0.95, damage limit 500%) to end up with 26.9 for adding the Brute or 26.4 for the Tankers. That is under 2% difference. I get people want of finish as fast as possible but if it takes the Tanker team 2 hours to finish the content the Brute team is only beating them by 1 minute and 6 seconds. And that if the Tanker's greater AoE did not come into play.

 

 

Edited August 30, 2022 by Erratic1

[Spaghetti Betty]

35 minutes ago, Krimson said:

Depends on the toon and the player. Come farming with my Corr sometime. The only real advantage meat shields have is Taunt. 90% Res is great but not the only way to mitigate damage.

Sure, I always welcome the opportunity to play with others and make new friends. However, and I don't mean this to come off as abrasive, but I don't think that this will prove either of our points. I just don't believe the 2 situations being discussed are comparable.

 

23 minutes ago, Erratic1 said:

I get people want of finish as fast as possible but if it takes the Tanker team 2 hours to finish the content the Brute team is only beating them by 1 minute and 6 seconds

But we're talking about a Brute's viability in bleeding edge cases, right? The OP wasn't complaining about Brute identity while soloing at +0. In this circumstance that is a huge improvement.

[tidge]

On 8/26/2022 at 9:19 PM, biostem said:

Honest question:  What is it about the brute that allowed you to pull that off, and were your tanks also able to accomplish said feats?  For me, it's more about the margin for error with each AT;  On my tankers, I can pretty much just casually stroll into any fight and defeat the enemies at my own pace, whereas my stalker, scrapper, or brute live more on that knife's edge...

 

[Erratic1]

1 hour ago, Spaghetti Betty said:

But we're talking about a Brute's viability in bleeding edge cases, right? The OP wasn't complaining about Brute identity while soloing at +0. In this circumstance that is a huge improvement.

 

With 7 Corruptors/Defenders I think you could probably use a Blaster as a damage sponge. So not sure that is really saying much about a Brute being special in that situation. A Tanker does better and you take an utterly unsignificant damage hit and a  Scrapper could likely do the job for more damage (though things get interesting in the case of a one-shot that gets through).

Edited August 31, 2022 by Erratic1

[Spaghetti Betty]

18 minutes ago, Erratic1 said:

(though things get interesting in the case of a one-shot that gets through)

Exactly this. There's a lot of autohit and unresistable damage being thrown around in a 4-star ITF that is unfortunate to get hit by. It's far much easier to direct that damage at a Tank/Brute over a Blaster or another Corrupter. I'm not arguing that another AT couldn't fill that spot, but I hope you're not discounting aggro management and how it can sway battles constantly.

Edited August 31, 2022 by Spaghetti Betty

[Gobbledigook]

11 hours ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

Ok, so Brutes are better than either Scrappers or Tankers when on a team with the right composition.

 

Is there some reason why that can't be ok?

 

Can't some ATs do better solo and others on teams?

That was sort of what i was trying to say in my original post. Team composition, builds, set choices etc may all need looking at and some adaptation may be required before knee jerk reactions. I certainly did not mean "Git Gud"... at least not until they started on me lol.

[FUBARczar]

IDK what all the fuss is about.  I know Fire Brutes that soloed +4/8 ITF w/o deaths, temps or inspirations in the 1:15 to 1:25 range with defense less than 30 for M/S/L.  Maybe you just think that you need more than you actually do.  I went a little more defensive and finished a little slower.  

 

Brutes don't need that much.  Just a massage of the defensive and offensive base numbers upward a smidge to put it firmly between a Scrapper and Tank.

 

Then a sprinkle of a little extra aggro parity would be the icing on the top.  Done!

 

 

[Snarky]

6 hours ago, FUBARczar said:

IDK what all the fuss is about.  I know Fire Brutes that soloed +4/8 ITF w/o deaths, temps or inspirations in the 1:15 to 1:25 range with defense less than 30 for M/S/L.  Maybe you just think that you need more than you actually do.  I went a little more defensive and finished a little slower.  

 

Brutes don't need that much.  Just a massage of the defensive and offensive base numbers upward a smidge to put it firmly between a Scrapper and Tank.

 

Then a sprinkle of a little extra aggro parity would be the icing on the top.  Done!

 

 

First, moving the numbers “a smidge” depending on your definition might move them into Tanker territory.  
 

One of my original gripes was Tankers got extra AoE (damage control etc) and that was moving into Brute territory.   Payback is beautiful, but childish.  Fun, true.  Any buff for a Brute would not be refused.   Just saying the logic is about as sideways as “fixing” the Tank by giving it more AoE.   Sure, they love it.   Scratches head. WTF???

[Yomo Kimyata]

I want to come back to something that keeps coming up:  brute ATOs being the worst invention set known to humankind.

 

I find that opinion interesting, since they do sell very well.  Is this hatred based on the set bonuses, or the procs?  Because the set bonuses look like the best in melee class.

 

If it's the procs, well, it's hard to compete with the massively powerful trio that are tanker, stalker, and scrapper ATO procs.  

 

Great stats and unneeded procs v. good stats and critically necessary procs?  Sounds like a trade-off.

[Spaghetti Betty]

44 minutes ago, Krimson said:

My point was Brutes and Tankers are not the only options, just the options with a taunt mechanic. One of the best farmers I have ever farmed with was Almighty Magic who played a Plant/Fire Dominator. No taunt needed because Creepers. Are you on Excelsior. I think I might have seen you in game?

Yeah, I only play on Excelsior, but during odd times for most folks. On most days of the week I'm only able to log on between 1am-5am CST. The exceptions are my off days, Monday and Wednesday, but those are subject to real life.

[Spaghetti Betty]

13 minutes ago, Yomo Kimyata said:

I want to come back to something that keeps coming up:  brute ATOs being the worst invention set known to humankind.

 

I find that opinion interesting, since they do sell very well.  Is this hatred based on the set bonuses, or the procs?  Because the set bonuses look like the best in melee class.

 

If it's the procs, well, it's hard to compete with the massively powerful trio that are tanker, stalker, and scrapper ATO procs.  

 

Great stats and unneeded procs v. good stats and critically necessary procs?  Sounds like a trade-off.

This is interesting to bring up. The set bonuses are pretty damn good. That's not to say the ATs with good ATO procs don't have good set bonuses, just maybe a little redundant to their respective ATs (Do Tankers really need an extra 12% S/L resist across both sets?)

 

But it's hard to ignore the fact that the Brute's Fury proc is essentially worthless since Fury isn't hard to keep up anymore. IMO that one could use looking at. The other one is fine.

[Sovera]

24 minutes ago, Yomo Kimyata said:

I want to come back to something that keeps coming up:  brute ATOs being the worst invention set known to humankind.

 

I find that opinion interesting, since they do sell very well.  Is this hatred based on the set bonuses, or the procs?  Because the set bonuses look like the best in melee class.

 

If it's the procs, well, it's hard to compete with the massively powerful trio that are tanker, stalker, and scrapper ATO procs.  

 

Great stats and unneeded procs v. good stats and critically necessary procs?  Sounds like a trade-off.

 

 

Yeah, it's the procs we complain about. One gives five stacks of regen and endurance discount. I don't quite remember anymore since it's been a while I've touched the game, but I believe full stacks would be 100% regen and endurance discount something like 30%. While this seems pretty good the actual number of times the proc goes off is not great. I ran a bunch of tests in the Storne Armor for Brutes in my signature and at best I had half that which hardly made a difference.

 

I don't need to say how 50% regen and 14-16% endurance discount is not cause for envy.

 

 

The other proc gives Fury, which, well, was not very useful to begin with and did not get better after the change that increased Fury generation for Brutes. Tested it as well and it helps to slightly overcome the 90% Fury softcap. It might help more slotted in a power that would proc powers better but then that means not slotting damage procs. My tests were not super thorough but this was a worse option than damage procs.

 

 

The bonuses are standard ATO fare, and actually my Tanker is envious of the 5% S/L when splitting the Superior Brute's Fury. Paradoxically it makes slotting and softcapping Brutes easier than Tankers despite their better defensive numbers.

 

Edited August 31, 2022 by Sovera

[Infinitum]

3 hours ago, Snarky said:

First, moving the numbers “a smidge” depending on your definition might move them into Tanker territory.  
 

One of my original gripes was Tankers got extra AoE (damage control etc) and that was moving into Brute territory.   Payback is beautiful, but childish.  Fun, true.  Any buff for a Brute would not be refused.   Just saying the logic is about as sideways as “fixing” the Tank by giving it more AoE.   Sure, they love it.   Scratches head. WTF???

 

Putting it into Brute territory isn't a bad thing - in fact Brute's already played in Tanker territory in terms of mitigation but also blaster and scrapper in terms of damage output - often (and rather easily) surpassing those two classes in dmg output.  We had it all in Brute's and it was uncontested. 

 

It seems to me that is what is being held to here but that is not realistic for one AT to be able to dominate 3 categories.

 

Furthermore as it stands right now scrappers and Stalkers are the same aside from one being an open killer and one being a silent assassin - both outputting the best damage.  Brute's approach scrapper territory in terms of damage - tankers in terms of mitigation but surpasses neither (and that is ok). Tankers approach brute damage but doesn't surpass it tankers also has the best mitigation.

 

Aside from a few tweaks I don't know how it could be more balanced than that - going back to brutes brainlessly roflstomping everything surpassing every other ATs dmg and pacing tanker survivability is not realistic.

 

Would you rather Tankers give up the AOE for greater single target damage - virtually switching the field with Brutes? Because I would be ok with that - but brutes having it all should not be the case.

 

3 hours ago, Snarky said:

“fixing” the Tank by giving it more AoE.   Sure, they love it

 

They should be we. Because this is not City of Brutes - and Brute's are still awesome. They, interesting word.  Everyone has access to them also.  This is the Toy Story mentality I spoke of earlier.  Don't worry Woody you are still awesome and save the day just as many times as Buzz.

 

2 hours ago, Yomo Kimyata said:

If it's the procs, well, it's hard to compete with the massively powerful trio that are tanker, stalker, and scrapper ATO procs.  

 

Great stats and unneeded procs v. good stats and critically necessary procs?  Sounds like a trade-off.

 

Spot on, but I believe the procs would mean more and be more versatile than the bonuses.

Edited September 1, 2022 by Infinitum

[Snarky]

2 hours ago, Infinitum said:

 

Putting it into Brute territory isn't a bad thing - in fact Brute's already played in Tanker territory in terms of mitigation but also blaster and scrapper in terms of damage output - often (and rather easily) surpassing those two classes in dmg output.  We had it all in Brute's and it was uncontested. 

 

It seems to me that is what is being held to here but that is not realistic for one AT to be able to dominate 3 categories.

 

Furthermore as it stands right now scrappers and Stalkers are the same aside from one being an open killer and one being a silent assassin - both outputting the best damage.  Brute's approach scrapper territory in terms of damage - tankers in terms of mitigation but surpasses neither (and that is ok). Tankers approach brute damage but doesn't surpass it tankers also has the best mitigation.

 

Aside from a few tweaks I don't know how it could be more balanced than that - going back to brutes brainlessly roflstomping everything surpassing every other ATs dmg and pacing tanker survivability is not realistic.

 

Would you rather Tankers give up the AOE for greater single target damage - virtually switching the field with Brutes? Because I would be ok with that - but brutes having it all should not be the case.

 

 

They should be we. Because this is not City of Brutes - and Brute's are still awesome. They, interesting word.  Everyone has access to them also.  This is the Toy Story mentality I spoke of earlier.  Don't worry Woody you are still awesome and save the day just as many times as Buzz.

 

 

Spot on, but I believe the procs would mean more and be more versatile than the bonuses.

While i do enjoy a good rant could you explain the “ three categories” comment. I only found two reading your post.  A hard read as well, very condescending I thought.  But hey, when you are not Snarky you can still dream and try

[Infinitum]

53 minutes ago, Snarky said:

While i do enjoy a good rant could you explain the “ three categories” comment. I only found two reading your post.  A hard read as well, very condescending I thought.  But hey, when you are not Snarky you can still dream and try

 

It wasn't a rant - it is a logical assessment about the positioning of the melee ATs - and how they were before.

 

Three categories

1. Survival

2. Damage - in a lot of cases surpassing scrapper and blaster damage.

3. Risk vs Reward - Lower risk than the above because of #1

 

And stow the  "you are being condescending" talk - you already made your intentions known to start a thread to watch the world burn without putting skin in the game - oil on canvas right? - I was merely addressing your complaint and showing how it isn't justified unless you want to go back to a system that really was unbalanced.

 

It's right in line with people complaining about a patch without actually testing what is in the patch to contribute whether the patch contents work or not.

[SomeGuy]

On 8/29/2022 at 6:04 PM, PeregrineFalcon said:

The devs don't know what to do to fix them that won't completely invalidate their adjacent ATs.

 

 

lol yes they do

[FUBARczar]

13 hours ago, Snarky said:

First, moving the numbers “a smidge” depending on your definition might move them into Tanker territory.  
 

One of my original gripes was Tankers got extra AoE (damage control etc) and that was moving into Brute territory.   Payback is beautiful, but childish.  Fun, true.  Any buff for a Brute would not be refused.   Just saying the logic is about as sideways as “fixing” the Tank by giving it more AoE.   Sure, they love it.   Scratches head. WTF???

Like I said, something to solidly place them between a Tank and Scrapper at base levels.  The current max relative levels seem fine.

 

Remember Brutes were designed to share both tanker and scrapper territory.  That's why their defensive caps are tanker caps and offensively fully buffed they can run with scrappers.

 

I think that there is value in adjusting base levels so a difference can be felt/noticed when soloing or when not on a big buff team.  Which, BTW, when they are on a big buff team, it places them in Tanker and Scrapper territory simultaneously!!!

 

And brutes are dead? The Tank AoE, aggro buff makes sense when you understand Brutes more fully.  Tanks and scrappers are simply easier to play, reach higher levels without outside buffs.  The irony is that a villain AT shines best when cooperating/teaming. A brute wants to team. A maxed out brute is both a tank and scrapper.  It's a base level brute where the feeling of a brute has meaningful room for improvement.

 

Understand the nuance? Or just want to be snarky? Wtf?

Edited September 1, 2022 by FUBARczar
Clarity

[The_Warpact]

A common vein in this thread that I have noticed is that the Broot ATO procs suck. Now I'm not a numbers guy, I'd have to Google/Mids to get any point across and sure as hell don't know about the cycling rate of said procs.

 

So my question, why haven't I ever seen a post about changing the procs in the Suggestions section?

If it's broke, let's get it fixed, if it sucks let's collectively bitch about it till it gets fixed to a general consensus of acceptance.

 

So one of you nerds numbers people get to posting!

[Snarky]

7 hours ago, Infinitum said:

 

It wasn't a rant - it is a logical assessment about the positioning of the melee ATs - and how they were before.

 

Three categories

1. Survival

2. Damage - in a lot of cases surpassing scrapper and blaster damage.

3. Risk vs Reward - Lower risk than the above because of #1

 

And stow the  "you are being condescending" talk - you already made your intentions known to start a thread to watch the world burn without putting skin in the game - oil on canvas right? - I was merely addressing your complaint and showing how it isn't justified unless you want to go back to a system that really was unbalanced.

 

It's right in line with people complaining about a patch without actually testing what is in the patch to contribute whether the patch contents work or not.

Risk bs reward is a category alongside dps, tank, control, buff?    Okay……. No it’s not okay. At least own up to making stuff up or misstatements.   Even my Snarky butt does that

[Marshal_General]

It sounds like the best thematic fix would be to tack something onto fury. Scaling HP or resist would be the brute being so mad or focused that he doesn't feel the damage. I could even see scaling status protection/resist working with fury.

 

Then redesigning the ATOs should finish the job.

[FUBARczar]

25 minutes ago, Marshal_General said:

It sounds like the best thematic fix would be to tack something onto fury. Scaling HP or resist would be the brute being so mad or focused that he doesn't feel the damage. I could even see scaling status protection/resist working with fury.

 

Then redesigning the ATOs should finish the job.

Scaling resist and status protection with furry doesn't sound like good ideas or fixes.  I understand the concept, but Regen and endurance would be more universal for all defensive sets, as some can reach resist caps already.  And adding status production doesn't really add anything to the AT.

 

ATO improvement is needed for sure but it's not a fix for the AT.

[Infinitum]

59 minutes ago, Snarky said:

Risk bs reward is a category alongside dps, tank, control, buff?    Okay……. No it’s not okay. At least own up to making stuff up or misstatements.   Even my Snarky butt does that

 

Just stop - you know it  was when brutes made it to where it could fill both the role of scrapper and tank... At the same time.  Low risk. High reward.  Hell, for that matter it still kinda does that - tankers are just capable dmg wise now and can join the party.

 

Otherwise you wouldn't have your feelings hurt right now - back to the "they" comment.

Edited September 1, 2022 by Infinitum

[Without_Pause]

17 hours ago, Yomo Kimyata said:

I want to come back to something that keeps coming up:  brute ATOs being the worst invention set known to humankind.

 

I find that opinion interesting, since they do sell very well.  Is this hatred based on the set bonuses, or the procs?  Because the set bonuses look like the best in melee class.

 

If it's the procs, well, it's hard to compete with the massively powerful trio that are tanker, stalker, and scrapper ATO procs.  

 

Great stats and unneeded procs v. good stats and critically necessary procs?  Sounds like a trade-off.

The popularity might be more based on the AT than how good the ATO procs are. You can still split the one into two sets of three and get 10% S/L Def.