Sins of the Devs are visited upon the players

[Puma]

  On 9/14/2022 at 5:07 PM, PeregrineFalcon said:

I used to play Dungeons & Dragons when I was a young man. Have you ever played it? I still remember one of my favorite modules:

 

 

 

 

So, if you want to farm then farm. I don't care. But please stop with the "but farming is just beating up the bad guys too, hur dur hur duuuuuurp." Farming is not like intended game play. You know it isn't. I know it isn't. Please stop trying to insult my intelligence by making these ridiculous comparisons.

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First, clearly you do care, as evidenced by your posts in this thread.  Secondly...

You DO realize that you're doing the exact same thing, right?  You're constantly replaying the same content, over and over, for 15 years.  
 
Unless you play EVERY SINGLE CONTACT in EVERY SINGLE ZONE before you repeat, you're basically doing the exact same thing.  You're playing the content you enjoy on an endless loop.  Please quit acting like somehow your playstyle is the real one, and others' isn't.  It isn't a very comely look.  

Need I remind you that the Devs created an ENTIRE END GAME that REQUIRES you farming a very small set of content in order to progress to max levels and rewards?  And they offer weekly strike targets that incentivize you to re-run content for extra rewards?  

Edited September 14, 2022 by Puma

[Ukase]

  On 9/14/2022 at 5:07 PM, PeregrineFalcon said:

Farming is NOT intended game play.

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So...let me ask you something. First - understand that I accept (from what you wrote) why you feel farming isn't intended game play. I completely see your point, although I never played D & D, as my big brother told me it was Satanic, and foolish kid, I believed him! 

Oh..yeah, the question: 

I made a character. I avoided DFB, I'm tired of that, so I just clobbered some mobs around Atlas until I got to level 4, got me some explores and found an idle ouro port nobody was using and got the explores in Echo: Atlas and Echo: Galaxy. 

This is pretty much how I start every character. Go to the Hollows, run the 4 contacts there, head to Faultline, run the four contacts there - but before I tackle Doc Delilah, I'll head to Striga and tackle Peebles and Longman Jack. (what a name. I wonder if the ladies are disappointed or thrilled) 
Then, I make my way to Croatoa, and then finally, to RWZ, then to PI. 

I do this for pretty much every character. What's the difference between farming the same 26 contacts, the same story arcs the same missions with every character and farming the same maps in AE? They're both repetitive. 

What would you have me do? Go redside? I've done that too for a period. There's fewer contacts, fewer zones, uglier scenery, every bit as much zone hopping as blue side - and anyone who says differently is sadly mistaken. The only alignment where you don't do much zone hopping is Gold side, but even then they got you heading underground and then above ground fairly often. 

Are we supposed to quit for two years until the stories are not so stale? 

Now, this is just my perspective - and I still get what you're saying, but repeating the same content with different characters is the same thing as repeating the content with the same characters. It's all button mashing. The stories are the same. In my case, usually, the costume is the same, too! I have about 6 costumes I have saved. I generally will use the RNG but if I don't see anything catchy in the first few tries, I'll just load up one of the saved ones. The only things that change might be the AT and powersets. In most cases - like Defenders, Corruptors, Blasters, Sentinels - it's EXACTLY the same. Same strategy. At the lower levels, the defenses and resistances, recharge - all of that's the same. The only difference is the dps and hit points. Same with tanks, brutes, scrappers, stalkers. Strategy is the same. The exact same thing. I might elevate the difficulty because of the armors they get. 

It's all farming, my man. EVERYTHING in this game is a farm of some kind. And it was designed that way. 

Look at these folks doing iTrials. The same speed Lambda over and over. Sometimes, it's an iTrial train - Lambda, DD or BAF, Keyes, UGT, TPN, Magi. You don't think that's farming? It is. They're just farming something different. All by design. 

I realize this is probably semantics to you, and maybe others - but this whole game is farming. All of it. Just depends on what you're chasing. In your case, you're chasing adventure. But guess what? You're doing the same adventures over and over again, eventually. 

A different team might make the "experience" a little different, but the story is the same. It's all one big farm, with a lot of different crops. 

[battlewraith]

The basic D&D boxed set I bought as a kid had chits (no dice) and Keep on the Borderlands. It must've been 1980, just prior to the 1981 revision.

[BurtHutt]

  On 9/14/2022 at 8:58 PM, Krimson said:

When they had? I live in Calgary. We have the largest game store on the Continent.

 

https://www.sentrybox.com/

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Insane. I've been to Cgy a number of times but never knew about this. I'm not a gamer really and most of my friends are absolutely not gamers but it floors me this place exists in Cgy. Is it actually the biggest shop on the continent???

[BurtHutt]

  On 9/14/2022 at 11:19 PM, ivanhedgehog said:

and you have the best hockey team in Canada.

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No, they do not. You'll see - despite the big trade. I do think they have better players now and can make a run at the Cup. Best team in Canada? Debatable. The Leaves might be better, Coilers dispatched the Flamers in the playoffs with relative ease...hmmmmmm...Canucks are better this year... It'll be fun to see how they fare. Remember, it's not 1989 despite still playing in the house that Loob built. 

[scottocamp]

  On 9/14/2022 at 5:07 PM, PeregrineFalcon said:

Farming is NOT intended game play.

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I believe you have actually distilled the debate down to a single sentence.

 

There seems to be a group of players - perhaps even most players - who now play the game in a somewhat unconventional manner (i.e. not as intended).  And have fun playing the game in such a manner.

 

And there is another group of players who find this development rather upsetting.  Something akin to casting a person of color as an elf in a Tolkien adaptation.  The unconventional crowd obviously doesn't mind how anyone else plays.  But the conventional crowd really dislikes unconventional play.

 

Since you mention playing D&D - as a kid we used to play "suicide chess" between classes and during lunch.  The winner was the player who lost all their men first.  If you can take an opposing chess piece, you have to take it.  It was great fun and we did this for several years.  But clearly this was not "intended game play" for chess.  I assume you would find our unconventional youthful fun annoying?  🙂

 

So add me to the camp of folks who don't really understand why how we now play the game is so bothersome to you.  I played the game "as intended" for a very long time.  Now, as an old man, I just want to do what brings me the most joy.

 

[Glorious]

This is getting weird asf. 😄

I have questions:

1. Is calling a spade a spade the same as calling for nerfs and/or telling people not to do it?
2. Who are these people who "roar the terrible roars, gnash their terrible teeth..." etc.?
3. Has the melodrama peaked or is Sanguinesun just getting started?

[Sovera]

  On 9/14/2022 at 10:27 PM, Bill Z Bubba said:

 

Never forget....

 

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Gonna steal that screenshot and post it on most suggestion debates where players are heatedly protecting the devs.

 

 

  On 9/15/2022 at 12:24 AM, Ukase said:

Look at these folks doing iTrials. The same speed Lambda over and over. Sometimes, it's an iTrial train - Lambda, DD or BAF, Keyes, UGT, TPN, Magi. You don't think that's farming? It is. They're just farming something different. All by design.

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A bit unrelated, or perhaps related, but once in a while I would poke fun at Linea when they were forming a team over /b for the 801 series. They would mention how it was 'not a farm', and I'd mention 'you do it 4-5 times a day 6-7 days a week, how is it not a farm?'.

 

Just poking fun because, you know, semantics, spirit of the law, letter of the law. It may not -be- a farm, but it sure as heck is being farmed.

[battlewraith]

  On 9/14/2022 at 10:27 PM, Bill Z Bubba said:

 

Never forget....

 

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I haven't forgotten that one, but I think my takeaway is very different from that of some other posters. It's almost like a Rorschach test. 

 

That quote happened at the tail end of the off the rails gap closer thread in the suggestion forums. So an unpopular suggestion prompted an all out war between the forces of the status quo and a minority of people who were interested in an ability change. The more important question that arose from this fracas is "why does making a suggestion to the devs in the suggestion forum have to involve running this gauntlet of crusty naysayers that like to camp out there." What I take Kai to be saying there is that, while feedback is encouraged, players are not supposed to be shutting down ideas they don't like and discouraging people from posting there. Unlike say, a debate forum, where your goal is to win the debate and there is an expectation that anyone participating is going to bring a lot of arguments for their position. 

 

Oddly to me, other people seem to be viewing this quote as the smoking gun of sinister GM authoritarianism. People that view them as unfair for some reason see this post as a confirmation of it.

 

The ambiguities of this community are hilarious.

Edit: It wasn't the gap closer thread, it was about power pool standardization.

Edited September 15, 2022 by battlewraith

[Seed22]

  On 9/15/2022 at 12:24 AM, Ukase said:

What would you have me do? Go redside? I've done that too for a period. There's fewer contacts, fewer zones, uglier scenery, every bit as much zone hopping as blue side - and anyone who says differently is sadly mistaken.

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At least the writing's good!

 

Redside Bestside dangit! But you're right, the scenery needs a serious boost, and hell why not give me another contact or two while you're at it!

 

[Seed22]

  On 9/14/2022 at 10:27 PM, Bill Z Bubba said:

 

Never forget....

 

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I didn't know this existed, and now I'm extremely confused as to what happened to make this occur

[ivanhedgehog]

  On 9/15/2022 at 3:41 PM, battlewraith said:

 

I haven't forgotten that one, but I think my takeaway is very different from that of some other posters. It's almost like a Rorschach test. 

 

That quote happened at the tail end of the off the rails gap closer thread in the suggestion forums. So an unpopular suggestion prompted an all out war between the forces of the status quo and a minority of people who were interested in an ability change. The more important question that arose from this fracas is "why does making a suggestion to the devs in the suggestion forum have to involve running this gauntlet of crusty naysayers that like to camp out there." What I take Kai to be saying there is that, while feedback is encouraged, players are not supposed to be shutting down ideas they don't like and discouraging people from posting there. Unlike say, a debate forum, where your goal is to win the debate and there is an expectation that anyone participating is going to bring a lot of arguments for their position. 

 

Oddly to me, other people seem to be viewing this quote as the smoking gun of sinister GM authoritarianism. People that view them as unfair for some reason see this post as a confirmation of it.

 

The ambiguities of this community are hilarious.

Edit: It wasn't the gap closer thread, it was about power pool standardization.

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I think the point is: once the devs take a suggestion and put the work into starting to test it, it will almost always go into effect. We had zero input on whether there would be agro or damage type changes. the only thing we were allowed to input was were there any bugs. The important question was asked in private and decided before the players ever saw anything about it. If someone in suggestion asks for all sentinels to be deleted, you had better chime in quick before page 5 patch notes read"sentinels deleted and replaced by trained chinchilla masterminds". Thats why people watch the suggestion page with evil intent.

[Astralock]

  On 9/15/2022 at 6:11 PM, ivanhedgehog said:

If someone in suggestion asks for all sentinels to be deleted, you had better chime in quick before page 5 patch notes read"sentinels deleted and replaced by trained chinchilla masterminds". Thats why people watch the suggestion page with evil intent.

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I don’t know.  Trained chinchilla Masterminds sounds like an upgrade to me.

[Neiska]

  On 9/15/2022 at 7:11 PM, Astralock said:

I don’t know.  Trained chinchilla Masterminds sounds like an upgrade to me.

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Bet they would do better than mercs.

[Bill Z Bubba]

  On 9/15/2022 at 3:41 PM, battlewraith said:

What I take Kai to be saying there is that, while feedback is encouraged, players are not supposed to be shutting down ideas they don't like and discouraging people from posting there.

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  On 9/15/2022 at 3:41 PM, battlewraith said:

Oddly to me, other people seem to be viewing this quote as the smoking gun of sinister GM authoritarianism.

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Why not both? 🙂

[battlewraith]

  On 9/15/2022 at 8:22 PM, Bill Z Bubba said:

 

 

Why not both? 🙂

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Touche!

[PeregrineFalcon]

  On 9/15/2022 at 8:22 PM, Bill Z Bubba said:

Why not both? 🙂

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Well, GM Tahquitz's post saying that we are allowed to disagree with suggestions is still up.

 

However, there is a difference between writing a single post saying you don't like/agree with the suggestion (like say a jranger), and writing 30 posts disagreeing, arguing with people, calling people names, etc etc.

 

So it doesn't seem to me like there's anything sinister about GM Kai's post. And this is coming from me. The guy who never misses an opportunity to point out how biased and ridiculous the moderation on this forum often is.

[Black Zot]

  On 9/15/2022 at 8:04 PM, Neiska said:

 

Bet they would do better than mercs.

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That's not hard to pull off when replacing the mercs' guns with feathers would increase their damage output.

[ivanhedgehog]

  On 9/15/2022 at 8:46 PM, PeregrineFalcon said:

Well, GM Tahquitz's post saying that we are allowed to disagree with suggestions is still up.

 

However, there is a difference between writing a single post saying you don't like/agree with the suggestion (like say a jranger), and writing 30 posts disagreeing, arguing with people, calling people names, etc etc.

 

So it doesn't seem to me like there's anything sinister about GM Kai's post. And this is coming from me. The guy who never misses an opportunity to point out how biased and ridiculous the moderation on this forum often is.

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No argument about that. I think most of us have gone a little too far at times. or typed that perfect reply that will really zing...waited with it up for a while and quietly deleted it.

 

And GM Kal is a nice person. probably nicer than we deserve at times.

[Power Extreme]

Ok they should raise the aggro cap to 100 and be done with it, 50-100 mobs per map. 60-80 baddies per mob, and then just let us farmers cut loose on them, Or just take away one of the low pop servers and make it into a farming server with all the bells and whistles,

 

And GM Kal is a nice person. probably nicer than we deserve at times.

an Yes he is I was jerking his chain in Atlas and giving him hell just for fun and he just rolled with the punches, so anyone who is bad-mouthing him dosn't know what the hell they are talking about, 

Edited September 15, 2022 by Power Extreme

[Nostromo21]

  On 9/7/2022 at 3:13 AM, Ukase said:

Oh my. It never occurred to me to make an alt specifically for the 5 reward merits from the explorations and then get converters, sell and repeat. Yeesh, that sounds more tedious than farming. Still, clever. 
But more clever is to actually use the converters on crafted IOs. Faster, too. 

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He, he, not my idea! :  

 

 

Yes, the most money comes from using the convertors which go from 70-100K Inf to buy the base/cheap melee dmg IO recipes, then convert the cheap IOs you make to the more lucrative rare or set IOs with the other Convertors, which then actually sell for 1-4Million Inf each! 🙂

 

Yeah, I know, it's a drag & as a solo carebear I would prefer to have a more 'legit' way to make Inf fast & then perhaps buy the set IOs for a reasonable price from special shops, rather than rely on fluctuating prices and availability on the AH. But, it is what it is, imagine if you had to grind for 100s of millions of Inf the old fashioned way...? 8-/

 

Edited September 16, 2022 by Nostromo21

[Bionic_Flea]

  On 9/15/2022 at 1:31 PM, Sovera said:

A bit unrelated, or perhaps related, but once in a while I would poke fun at Linea when they were forming a team over /b for the 801 series. They would mention how it was 'not a farm', and I'd mention 'you do it 4-5 times a day 6-7 days a week, how is it not a farm?'.

 

Just poking fun because, you know, semantics, spirit of the law, letter of the law. It may not -be- a farm, but it sure as heck is being farmed.

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801s are the WORST farms ever.  No inf, no XP, only death.

[The_Warpact]

  On 9/16/2022 at 11:05 AM, Bionic_Flea said:

 

801s are the WORST farms ever.  No inf, no XP, only CAKE OR DEATH.

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Fixt

[Bionic_Flea]

Linea gives you cake?

 

I'm contacting my union rep!

[Puma]

  On 9/15/2022 at 11:00 PM, ivanhedgehog said:

No argument about that. I think most of us have gone a little too far at times. or typed that perfect reply that will really zing...waited with it up for a while and quietly deleted it.

 

And GM Kal is a nice person. probably nicer than we deserve at times.

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I still say giving Merc MMs the "Swap Ammo" feature would completely fix Merc's major issues.  It's a super easy fix and would instantly make them a much more enjoyable set.