Focused Feedback: Robotics Revamp

[Doc_Scorpion]

26 minutes ago, Dispari said:

Even just going through normal missions on a casual +1x5 or so my bots were running out of endurance on beta with 33% slotting.

By my scale, that's more hardcore than casual...  🙂  Either way, it's considerably more difficult than I'm running.

[Paradox Fate]

Is the endurance consumption on the bots on-par with the minions of the other sets now, or just a tad over the top due to the increased rate of attacks they can dish out per minute?

[EmperorSteele]

It brings up a good question for the devs: what IS the balance threshold we should test for? Obviously, if someone is running out of End and dying a lot at -1/×1, that's a problem. If someone is coasting through +4/x8 without IOs, THAT'S a problem, too. So, what's the in-between?

[ScarySai]

6 hours ago, EmperorSteele said:

Obviously, if someone is running out of End and dying a lot at -1/×1, that's a problem. If someone is coasting through +4/x8 without IOs, THAT'S a problem, too.

 

There's more variables than that, though. Even back in the day, something like say, a bots or thugs/traps was one of the best things you could make without any ios if you wanted to blow up hard missions solo. Out of the box it's very tanky and capable of holding it's own.

 

Anyway, this slotting should help a lot of people out. You can switch up drone and Protector a bit, but I feel like this is the best acc/dam/end spread you can go for without going too hard or light on end redux, and maximizing set bonuses/auras.

 

 

 

Edited October 11, 2022 by ScarySai

[TygerDarkstorm]

Would you still consider that slotting as effective if we can't/don't want to get the purpled ATOs?

[ScarySai]

If you can't, get some inf.

 

If you don't want to, and are 50, IDK what you want from me, lol.

Edited October 11, 2022 by ScarySai

[Doc_Scorpion]

OK, took my bots/FF out in her lvl 29 form...  And didn't really encounter any Endurance problems.  Looks like Upgrade is where the problem starts to kick in.

[TygerDarkstorm]

1 hour ago, ScarySai said:

If you can't, get some inf.

 

If you don't want to, and are 50, IDK what you want from me, lol.

The question was simply, is that slotting effective with even the regular versions of the ATO's? No need to be snarky about it.

[ScarySai]

14 minutes ago, TygerDarkstorm said:

The question was simply, is that slotting effective with even the regular versions of the ATO's? No need to be snarky about it.

Not snark, the question just confused me.

 

It will be less effective, of course, but serviceable. 

[ChromeWeasel]

I'm currently leveling up a Rob/FF MM. The robotics changes are great. Even without a respec, at level 23 I saw a dramatic improvement on minion damage. So far leveling this character the Villian avatar has dealt the majority of damage. And that's just with Force Bolt and prestige powers like Nemesis Staff. I avoid rifle attacks since they dont fit the character concept. So I've been patiently holding back from attacking too much (due to limited of endurance) while the robots SLOWLY chip away. I supplement with the whole Leadership pool but the bots still miss a lot and dont damage very fast.

 

MUCH better with this patch. I'd say the henchmen clear about 2x as fast. ALSO, getting the Assault bot earlier is a big change. At level 23, there's no Assault Bot. With the patch I can respec into him. That's another big difference. I tested both with and without Assault Bot. Obviously better with him in the build, but even without him it's obvious that I'm dealing way more damage over time.

 

Seems like great changes to me. People need to remember that not everything happens at level 40. It takes time to get there and the grind really sucks when most of your damage is limited to the level 28 unlock. That always seemed like a bad design idea.

[Doc_Scorpion]

1 hour ago, ChromeWeasel said:

So I've been patiently holding back from attacking too much (due to limited of endurance) while the robots SLOWLY chip away. I supplement with the whole Leadership pool but the bots still miss a lot and dont damage very fast.

You do have them slotted for ACC and DMG?  This is especially important for the Battle Drones.  Another factor is controlling your difficulty level.

[Paradox Fate]

I did a quick test on the bots on Beta regarding Endurance and had them shoot on dummies.

 

Tests were made with no IO's in them, one Level 50 Endredux IO and then 2x Level 50 Endredux, with having both Equip and Upgrade Robot on them.

No other buffs affected them other than their own.

 

The time is listed when they were 'tapped out' on Endurance, which took a major hit on their attack rate after that.

 

The Battle Drones were holding out the longest, even with half of their Endurance left after 4 Minutes in with 1x IO, while they were above 90% at all times with 2x IO's in them.

 

Edited October 11, 2022 by Paradox Fate

[ChromeWeasel]

1 hour ago, Doc_Scorpion said:

You do have them slotted for ACC and DMG?  This is especially important for the Battle Drones.  Another factor is controlling your difficulty level.

 

Yes, I have a 6 item set of pet attack enhancements on each. Blood Mandate and Brilliant Leadership all levels 22-26. They are fully decked out.

Difficulty is default.

[Dispari]

1 hour ago, Paradox Fate said:

I did a quick test on the bots on Beta regarding Endurance and had them shoot on dummies.

 

Tests were made with no IO's in them, one Level 50 Endredux IO and then 2x Level 50 Endredux, with having both Equip and Upgrade Robot on them.

No other buffs affected them other than their own.

 

The time is listed when they were 'tapped out' on Endurance, which took a major hit on their attack rate after that.

 

The Battle Drones were holding out the longest, even with half of their Endurance left after 4 Minutes in with 1x IO, while they were above 90% at all times with 2x IO's in them.

 

This is a great test and good knowledge to have. Would be worth trying with some of the other pet sets. Also curious how they currently perform on live. Might do that myself if you don't get around to it.

[PeregrineFalcon]

I just logged off of the test server. This is my focused feedback.

 

For testing I made a Bots/FF MM at level 50. All SOs, and a couple of Unique IOs. Did some street sweeping on My Island. And a couple of scanner missions.

• Pulse Rifle Blast, Pulse Rifle Burst, and Photon Grenade - These all fire noticeably faster now. While they don't do much damage, I do like that the regen debuff gives those attacks a purpose besides drawing aggro and trying to get me killed.
• Maintenance Drone - Huge improvement! However, it is really weird to see what's obviously a decapitated Protector Bot torso flying around. I get that you guys are far more limited on art assets than you are with changing the numbers on powers, but this just looks weird. Maybe use the model from Seeker Drone or Targeting Drone instead?
• Equip & Upgrade Robot - I like that these powers now have a reason to actually put slots in them.
• The Bots Themselves - Once again big improvement. They were firing a lot faster and enemies were being knocked down rather than flug all over the place. Also, since the bots weren't running around chasing enemies that they'd just shot down a hallway, the were much easier to control and weren't constantly aggroing other groups.

Much like the Sentinel and Mercs upgrades, I'd say this one's definitely a winner.

[Paradox Fate]

Here's a list with the other reworked MM Henchmen and the other ones for reference.

 

As usual, made with Level 50 EndRedux IO's and only letting them attack with their own powers and no buffs given other than their upgrades.

 

 

 

Edited October 12, 2022 by Paradox Fate
Fixed a wrong Primary and added all of them on a sheet.

[Dispari]

Great comparison!

So bots do burn out unusually fast compared to every other set, especially the Protectors. Assault might be okay for a t3.

Maybe the Protectors need Conserve Power too.

[Fira]

Almost only play Bots/Traps, was mostly interested in power changes, so imported a char for very summary newspaper mission testing

 

I read a lot of pylon testing / regen theorycraft here but didn't see any mention of changes to Incendiary Swarm Missiles, which go (20ft, 16 targets) to (10ft, 10 targets)...

Edit: Plus i figure the flames deal was changed aswell or stripped out, it's not easy to spot in practice testing

 

But much like -Regen changes, it's essentially all crutches removal, hopefully worth being less clunky and more smooth

 

I'd just second as pictured above End is brutal and probably needs some adjustment especially for T2s...

Edited October 12, 2022 by Fira
ZzZzzz

[tiberius0476]

On 10/11/2022 at 2:27 PM, Paradox Fate said:

I did a quick test on the bots on Beta regarding Endurance and had them shoot on dummies.

 

Tests were made with no IO's in them, one Level 50 Endredux IO and then 2x Level 50 Endredux, with having both Equip and Upgrade Robot on them.

No other buffs affected them other than their own.

 

The time is listed when they were 'tapped out' on Endurance, which took a major hit on their attack rate after that.

 

The Battle Drones were holding out the longest, even with half of their Endurance left after 4 Minutes in with 1x IO, while they were above 90% at all times with 2x IO's in them.

 

This is extremely helpful data for planning future build modifications. Thank you for taking the time to do this. 

[Sir Myshkin]

On 10/11/2022 at 2:27 PM, Paradox Fate said:

I did a quick test on the bots on Beta regarding Endurance and had them shoot on dummies.

 

If you watch the combat log you can see the actual attack rotation they use, and you'll get to see what new attacks were added to the cycle. It's stated in the patch notes that the "henchmen" had their cast times shaved down, and this will impact cycle times, which will impact endurance burn. Originally the cycle that all MM pets were designed with was specific to a set list of attacks with a specific cycle to help keep them on track and consistent because speeding up their options cause the AI to get a bit wonky. Since you're already looking into it now, if you're interested I'd suggest looking at the attack cycles and report those back to make sure the bots on each level aren't getting stuck on a singular attack that's burning them down, or an abnormal chain that's excluding a lower-base power to help balance their endurance cycles.

[Zephiyo]

I tested my Bots/FF Mastermind on the Beta, and this is a substantial nerf - I mean it.

Sorry for the long post, but I want to help as much as possible with information, so try to stay with me, here...

 

The damage increase is nice on the pets yes, but the -Regen is a massive, massive nerf against harder content, and here's why:

--1. Currently on Live, the Assault bot stacks 1,000% and sometimes 1,500% -Regen on a target. (I just tested this).
We're talking easily 100+dps on a level 54 AV. That's more dps than all your pets combined against a non-debuffed level 54 AV.

 

--2. To get full -Regen now, Masterminds have to take and slot three whole powers. This is a painful blow to power selection and bubbles.
Even if you pick up the three powers and spend slots in them, it's only -600% Regen. 1/3rd of what you got in Live.
So against 54 AVs your kill time is just destroyed.

 

 

This exacerbates a problem MMs already have, which I'll explain so try to stay with me again here...
Currently, a MM's biggest problem is effectiveness scaling via the Purple Patch. <-- that's a link!

Purple Patch TL;DL - the higher in level the bad guy is over you, the exponentially less you do to it. This includes debuffs/damage/to-hit/etc.

Masterminds have pets that are level 48, 49 and 50 - this is important to remember. You pets are not your level.

 

This means Masterminds are as good as everyone else at level 50 content. They're quite good, in fact. Support with average-low damage, like defender.

Now let's make the content level 54. All the other Arctypes are 48% as effective, except MMs because pets are 15%, 30% and 48% effective (in pet order).

This means the higher level the content, the further Masterminds fall from the rest of the team.

 

For example, I just did this on Live 15 minutes ago:

Target: Arachnos Fortunata

Mastermind's Pulse Rifle Blast against a 50 = 63 damage

Mastermind's Pulse Rifle Blast against 54 = 30 damage

-t1 Minion Laser Burst against a 50 = 3 ticks of 6.45 damage

-t1 Minion Laser Burst against a 54 = 3 ticks of 1.2 damage

The player does 47.6% of their original damage on +4.

The t1 minion pets do 18.6% of their original damage on +4.

 

Bump that content up to level 55 Challenge AVs and MM pets go to 8%, 15% and 30% effective.

This is also a To-Hit reduction on your pets of -92%, -80% and -70%. They really struggle to hit the higher level you fight.

 

4star Hardmodes:

Challenge AVs are 54+1, so t1 pets and t2 pets are basically doing nothing. The only saving grace was -Regen from the Assault Bot.

In this patch that -Regen has been cut to 1/3rd and the MM has to actually hit with 3 attacks to get that 1/3rd.

On Live I might allow a Bot Mastermind to come on 4star runs because of their -Regen against 54+1 AVs.

With this patch there's no way Masterminds would be useful outside of their Secondary Power selection, which is already weaker numbers compared to other arctypes.

 

In the end (thanks for coming), this is a buff to Masterminds doings Radio/Paper missions or fighting level 50s.

However, In Taskforces and especially in Hardmodes, this is a huge nerf if only because of the -Regen loss.

 

 

Here come my suggestions to fix the problems I see:

--1. Above all else, pets should be the same level as the Mastermind. Even if their damage has to be nerfed because of it.

If pet level is not matched to the owner, Masterminds will always scale worse than every other arctype.

To be as good as everyone against a level 50, but worse than everyone against a level 54+1/+2/+3 is poor design.

On 4star Hardmode content, MMs can't keep up - it hurts to watch.

 

--2. Give some -Regen to all the Robot beam attacks. Not as much as -1,500% (that's really OP), but enough to stack up to -500% at least without the MM using pew pew.

A Mastermind full-timing a support set like Kinetics or Electric Affinity rarely has the time for their gun, nor can they afford the power and slot picks.

And if a Mastermind isn't full-timing a support set, they can have the option to add another 600% -Regen to the target on top of their Bot debuffs.

Making all bots do minor -Regen with their lasers is consistent with damage-type design: energy beams do -Regen.

 

 

As always, thanks for the wonderful work you Devs are putting in. Current power updates are my favorite patch notes.

You work is so very appreciated!

 

Edit: One typo so far...

Edited October 13, 2022 by Zephiyo

[Bionic_Flea]

8 hours ago, Zephiyo said:

I tested my Bots/FF Mastermind on the Beta, and this is a substantial nerf - I mean it.

Did you actually fight an AV on your Bots/FF on the beta?  I'd be interested to read your results.

[Doc_Scorpion]

10 hours ago, Zephiyo said:

For example, I just did this on Live 15 minutes ago:

No testing on Brainstorm?

[Sir Myshkin]

First off: This is an executed test performed on the beta server.

Second off: I somehow tabbed into the submit button which submitted when I hit the space bar... no idea, so there's an edit to complete this submission pending...

Third off: Final edit complete, read away:

 

Buckled down and transferred over my Bots/Kin as it stands in its live incarnation to see how it reflected with the changes. My primary goal was to test two specific things:

1. How it stands up to a basic Pylon test
2. How it stands up to a swarm of 54 Rikti

These are kind of my standard go-to performance checks for any content in the game. If a build can't qualify against these two things solo (within acceptable margins of reason), it'll reflect immediately. To keep this attempt both equal with my past testing on this particular "drop kill" concept, and to stay in line with a pure(er) Beta process, this is going in without the fancy suite of Incarnates beyond just the T3 Musculature Alpha as I had before.

 

Against a Pylon

With Masterminds my expectation is how well a MM build can "drop kill" on a target, which is a very simplified term for me on approaching a target with nothing summoned/prepped, execute your entire battle plan on the spot, and execute the target. Previously my Bots/Kin could drop kill a Pylon between 7:00-8:00 minutes. This is done almost entirely at the leisure of the Robotics crew with no direct damage support from [me] beyond Kinetics.

 

Taking this task on Beta I was able to repeat this once, but with what looks to be some caveats to the performance chances in the set. My first attempt came in at 7:30 from first summon, to the explosion of the Pylon, my second attempt I ended up cancelling the attempt after over 9:00 minutes of frustration in the Pylon breaking through with KB and tossing the Bots around like ragdolls. I also was faced with an excessive amount of resummons in the second attempt from the bots dying constantly and inexplicably. Not to say I didn't face several resummons in the first run, it definitely wasn't in the ballpark of round two.

 

I decided to go out and take a swing at the Rikti in the field as a break of pace, hunt the groups down and find a few patches of 54's, see how the Bob's do...

 

Against 54 Rikti

Group wise it wasn't a terrible run, I definitely got the shaft more by getting nailed with Mez thanks to those wonderful Mesmerists which put the Bob's in danger more from lack of support more than incapacity to deal with the Rikti. I do feel like I want a better idea of what their revised attack cycles are now though. I got a weird feeling of "down time" during the Pylon run, and that still carried over during the group experience as well. The Assault Bot was bursting through three attacks in a heart beat and then taking a soda break. The faster animations might be a tad TOO fast, I dunno, really haven't had a chance to look at it as the server crashed before I could look at their new cycles.

 

Thoughts so far? Well, I think the damage might be sort of okay, I really dislike the idea of loosing out the advantage of the -Regen, but at the same time I know many build concepts just can't fit those attacks in to make that happen. I toyed around with it a bit last night and... just Nope. There's too much going on to try and squeeze that in, even just one is hard if we want to really try and keep the MM alive, take the full cadre of the Secondary, and still even just have ONE pool category and a travel power. It's tough.

 

I also, on the concept of the damage, am a bit "eeeehhhhhhhhhhhh" about it really being enough on its own. I'm not gonna say one way or the other on how any of it should be shaken out, but I personally don't know that the Robots exclusively on their own are just quite doing enough damage still. As it stands currently I can do more single target DPS with a Traps Defender using exclusively Boxing, Kick, and Cross Punch as its attacks (solo'd Pylon 6:30) than this squadron of Bob's. And keep in mind, when the Robots go up against a Pylon it even-cons so it's not even a legit fair comparison, it's technically in the MM's favor (which is why I prefer to do a drop kill test instead, for more realism), and the MM is still under performing by a pretty wide margin.

 

Take that for what it's worth. No I'm not saying there's something wrong with the Fighting Pool, haha, I'm just saying that's how poorly off Robotics kinda still maybe might be? And I haven't even tried Mercs yet /em shrug

Edited October 14, 2022 by Sir Myshkin

[Sovera]

15 hours ago, Zephiyo said:

Here come my suggestions to fix the problems I see:

--1. Above all else, pets should be the same level as the Mastermind. Even if their damage has to be nerfed because of it.

If pet level is not matched to the owner, Masterminds will always scale worse than every other arctype.

To be as good as everyone against a level 50, but worse than everyone against a level 54+1/+2/+3 is poor design.

On 4star Hardmode content, MMs can't keep up - it hurts to watch.

 

The devs are aware of the problem the original design of MM pets has in the current game. It is not a lack of desire to fix this. Unfortunately it is not as simple as locating the pets in the code and find the 'pets = -1' and replace with 'pets = 0'.

 

The same reason we could not have a choice of powers in secondaries until now (and yes, even the original devs tried to have the secondaries able to choose between their T1 and T2 power and gave up, the current devs tried it a good while back and the game went down in flames forcing them to revert their attempts). It is a big ball of yarn with a castle of cards prepped on top where the players are living and whenever one of the threads is gently tugged something gets undone somewhere else.

 

Unrelated to MMs but Cobalt has -tales- of simply trying to make the current holstered weapons system and this seemingly innocuous FX thing setting the servers on fire.

 

 

So yeah, they know this is a problem, and they are chipping at it, but there is no ETA and there are no promises because maybe at some point the knot will come undone much to the relief (and surprise, and probably weary happiness, and also wary scepticism) of the dev involved in it, or they will keep on Sisyphus-ing at it for all eternity despite all the good will in the world.

 

Edited October 14, 2022 by Sovera