Why so long for game evolvement?

[biostem]

7 minutes ago, Paradox Fate said:

I'd be for more QoL changes along the way instead of piling them together on big patches, especially on some that people have been waiting for a long time.

Well, wasn't that the thinking behind the "Pages", as opposed to full-on updates?  Another point of contention is that what one person thinks is a "QoL improvement", another deems a "dumbing-down" of the game...

[Paradox Fate]

12 minutes ago, biostem said:

Well, wasn't that the thinking behind the "Pages", as opposed to full-on updates?  Another point of contention is that what one person thinks is a "QoL improvement", another deems a "dumbing-down" of the game...

 

And that's fine - I just wish I know what's actually on the table myself, so I don't have to guess and wonder if something is coming. And as it has been said already, "soon™" is badly overused and not even funny anymore to see it.

 

Just some "Hey, we got X and Y on our radar right now and we are going to try a few things out." post now and then for everyone to see might be good, just sayin'.

Transparency is important, especially when the development takes so long. People just like to be in the loop of things so they can better understand.

 

But if you only get snippets here and there, then ... you get threads like this.

[Glacier Peak]

35 minutes ago, Paradox Fate said:

 

And that's fine - I just wish I know what's actually on the table myself, so I don't have to guess and wonder if something is coming. And as it has been said already, "soon™" is badly overused and not even funny anymore to see it.

 

Just some "Hey, we got X and Y on our radar right now and we are going to try a few things out." post now and then for everyone to see might be good, just sayin'.

Transparency is important, especially when the development takes so long. People just like to be in the loop of things so they can better understand.

 

But if you only get snippets here and there, then ... you get threads like this.

And anyone interested in finding this information out can do so. Where is the disconnect, I'm curious? What is giving you the impression that this information isn't readily available?

 

Anyone - they don't even need to have any expertise in testing - can join a community of other players, dev and Homecoming staff included, to get after the fun and banal aspects of breaking, fixing, and rebreaking the game in the journey towards the Homecoming team's vision. It is as easy as clicking a link, filling out a request, waiting patiently for a reply, and then downloading the separate server on to the launcher.

 

Even if people don't want to invest their time and effort in to making the game better and would prefer to be aware of the changes on the table, (which frequently change, get rolled back, or saved for later due to further testing) they can do so. There isn't anything stopping anyone from doing so, except their own decisions not to.

 

I would also caution that expectation management will pay dividends to anyone who thinks being in the know is all there is to enjoying the game. Game development is a process and things change frequently, sometimes due to unforseen circumstances as @GM Impervium mentioned on previous pages. I would offer to also be aware that no amount of time or effort invested will make any player's opinion more valid or listened to - but evidence and methodology go a long way!

[Paradox Fate]

28 minutes ago, Glacier Peak said:

And anyone interested in finding this information out can do so. Where is the disconnect, I'm curious? What is giving you the impression that this information isn't readily available?

 

Pray tell - Where exactly is/are the treads that give you a preview and/or explanation of whats being worked on before it hits the beta? Or do you have to specially dig through the posts of each (Lead)GM/Developer that offer snippets somewhere?

 

Just like in this very thread: "Things have slowed down a bit due to circumstances." And that's fine. Shit happens all the time.

 

Wished such things would be consolidated somewhere, just one or two klicks away when one calls up this website. So people know there is still progress.

[biostem]

6 minutes ago, Paradox Fate said:

Pray tell - Where exactly is/are the treads that give you a preview and/or explanation of whats being worked on before it hits the beta?

I'd start with the Developer's Corner section of these forums.

Edited March 4, 2023 by biostem

[Paradox Fate]

35 minutes ago, biostem said:

I'd start with the Developer's Corner section of these forums.

 

Which had the last teaser being in September '22 - That's nearly 6 months ago.

And the discussion about improving the Warriors nearly is 2 years old since opening the thread.

 

So yeah. A tad outdated.

 

Where do we stand now, in 2023?

Edited March 4, 2023 by Paradox Fate

[lemming]

7 hours ago, Ironblade said:

Yay!  You got your sass back!   🙂

It was behind the couch cushions!

[lemming]

And yes, there is stuff being worked on, that you can find out by joining a discord channel. Not very difficult, I did so today even though apparently I didn't click on the right thing...

 

A ton of stuff did get released in a flurry of activity last year, some due to dev timing issues.  All in all, I'm pretty happy with their releases and the servers seem to be getting more stable which is nice.  There are some functions that other servers have implemented that sound cool and maybe I'll go check them out again at some point.

[Troo]

27 minutes ago, lemming said:

And yes, there is stuff being worked on, that you can find out by joining a discord channel.

 

Shouldn't have to be on Discord to be in the loop.

[lemming]

1 minute ago, Troo said:

Shouldn't have to be on Discord to be in the loop.

Can't say it's my favorite tool, but it's what they are using.  Everytime I joined a company, I wound up needing to learn a tool or two that wasn't my favorite.

[blue4333]

Aren't the Closed Beta patch notes locked behind another forum platform that requires registration (which is currently disabled)?

[biostem]

Was it ever stated why the "Official" forums aren't where that stuff is located?  Does Discord offer other tools or features necessary to the work they're doing?

Edited March 4, 2023 by biostem

[Troo]

1 minute ago, lemming said:

Can't say it's my favorite tool, but it's what they are using.  Everytime I joined a company, I wound up needing to learn a tool or two that wasn't my favorite.

 

Don't get me wrong, folks can use whatever tool they want for rapid discussion and debate.. but not keeping the official Homecoming repository and folks who are not in a sub-sub-group informed.. that's a bit lazy or "convenient". It is definitely not "professional". (minor criticism, don't be offended)

 

I think the HC team does a good job with the exception being communication regarding discussions of potential upcoming changes. In my opinion this contributes to a lot of unnecessary drama.

 

 

[Bopper]

21 minutes ago, biostem said:

Was it ever stated why the "Official" forums aren't where that stuff is located?  Does Discord offer other tools or features necessary to the work they're doing?

The purpose of the discord is to allow beta testers to easily communicate with each other, in particular for coordinating test efforts together. For example, the use of forums is not an easy way to form a team when wanting to test a task force. The process is slow and inefficient. 

 

Discord allows for an easier way to reach others, if needed. If you ping someone on the forums, they'll only see it when they are on the website. But a ping from Discord can be seen immediately from your phone. It also allows for group opt-ins, so if you are looking to form a team quickly, you can ping @gameplay testers, and everyone who opted into that group will see that ping. No need to try to message or @ folks individually.

 

Sure, the Discord also gravitates towards discussion on what is being developed, much like the forums will when Open Beta gets released. Some people prefer having those discussions on Forums, some prefer Discord. Same with feedback. No matter what you prefer, the devs, GMs, staff, etc will use both.

 

I've been promoting my discord for awhile, typically bumping it whenever open beta starts (although, I seem to have not done it in the past year...but hey, life got busy for me).

[Troo]

On 3/2/2023 at 7:57 AM, GM Impervium said:

That said, the next page IS being worked on. While I can't begin to speculate when the next Open Beta will be... well, "Soon (tm)" is kind of a tired meme by this point, but maybe it applies?

 

FYI If closed beta is underway, this may be the first some of us have heard about it.

 

I check the beta forum here every couple weeks or so and have only seen general questions. Nothing on any activity or to check Discord.

 

 

Edited March 4, 2023 by Troo

[Faultline]

6 hours ago, Paradox Fate said:

Just like in this very thread: "Things have slowed down a bit due to circumstances." And that's fine. Shit happens all the time.

 

5 hours ago, Paradox Fate said:

Which had the last teaser being in September '22 - That's nearly 6 months ago.

And the discussion about improving the Warriors nearly is 2 years old since opening the thread.

 

So yeah. A tad outdated.

 

Where do we stand now, in 2023?

 

I was pointed to this thread so I guess I'll provide an explanation; it is already widely known by the people in Golden Testers anyway. I'm the one in charge of patch merging and publishing and making sure that all the changes from other various devs (powers, storyarcs, base stuff) don't conflict with each other, and work in conflict resolution when it happens. So while work can continue while I'm not around, publishing an actual patch requires me to be around and with plenty of time to spare in order to deal with it. While other people have access and could do it if I were to suddenly dissapear, they don't generally work on the master branch without my involvement unless it's an emergency, because I've been doing it long enough that I can tell at a glance whether a seemingly innocent change will break everything.

 

Last year I was offered a good job in a different country, so I had to pack up my life and leave by late October. That's why Page 5 was relatively light in content and it didn't have a long public testing time; unlike other pages, that one had an actual deadline, where it needed to be out by October 17th or not at all. The intention was that I'd be settled by the beginning of the year and be able to start putting together Page 6 for a release in February or March. Some keen eyes noticed that I "lost" my "Developer" title after Page 5 release, which was done to signal that I was not around for development, so sending me messages about it would not be useful.

 

Well, the move was a disaster; I was robbed upon arrival at the new country and lost the bag with pretty much everything valuable including the laptop, all my IT gear such as harddrives, all the cash on me and more importantly, all my documentation besides the passport. So for the first couple of months I just had to deal with getting my paperwork back in order, and try to get settled with minimal resources. I am still not done with that, and my next appointment to sort out paperwork is on April 26th; bureaucracy is slow. The job is fortunately still waiting for me, but until I sort all my paperwork I can't get started.

 

I have only had enough stability to sit down and look at COH patches since last month; my new desktop arrived on February 10th. So testing was pretty much frozen from late October to early February. There's a lot of content built that needs testing, but we can't rush the process by just dumping everything in at once; branches are merged one at a time, checked that they work, and then new changes are brought in, make sure they work and don't break other changes, and so on. It will be a while until we're ready to announce Page 6, and the blame can be placed completely on me. It was worked on, and it is being tested, but the testing phase started way, way later than we would have liked.

[lemming]

Yikes on the robbery bit.  Here's hoping for everything getting better

[CloudMouse]

25 minutes ago, Faultline said:

 

 

I was pointed to this thread so I guess I'll provide an explanation; it is already widely known by the people in Golden Testers anyway. I'm the one in charge of patch merging and publishing and making sure that all the changes from other various devs (powers, storyarcs, base stuff) don't conflict with each other, and work in conflict resolution when it happens. So while work can continue while I'm not around, publishing an actual patch requires me to be around and with plenty of time to spare in order to deal with it. While other people have access and could do it if I were to suddenly dissapear, they don't generally work on the master branch without my involvement unless it's an emergency, because I've been doing it long enough that I can tell at a glance whether a seemingly innocent change will break everything.

 

Last year I was offered a good job in a different country, so I had to pack up my life and leave by late October. That's why Page 5 was relatively light in content and it didn't have a long public testing time; unlike other pages, that one had an actual deadline, where it needed to be out by October 17th or not at all. The intention was that I'd be settled by the beginning of the year and be able to start putting together Page 6 for a release in February or March. Some keen eyes noticed that I "lost" my "Developer" title after Page 5 release, which was done to signal that I was not around for development, so sending me messages about it would not be useful.

 

Well, the move was a disaster; I was robbed upon arrival at the new country and lost the bag with pretty much everything valuable including the laptop, all my IT gear such as harddrives, all the cash on me and more importantly, all my documentation besides the passport. So for the first couple of months I just had to deal with getting my paperwork back in order, and still try to get settled with minimal resources. I am still not done with that, and my next appointment to sort out paperwork is on April 26th; bureaucracy is slow. The job is fortunately still waiting for me, but until I sort all my paperwork I can't get started.

 

I have only had enough stability to sit down and look at COH patches since last month; my new desktop arrived on February 10th. So testing was pretty much frozen from late october to early February. There's a lot of content build that needs testing, but we can't rush the process by just dumping everything in at once; branches are merged one at a time, checked that they work, and then new changes are brought in, make sure they work and don't break other changes, and so on. It will be a while until we're ready to announce Page 6, and the blame can be placed completely on me. It was worked on, and it is being tested, but the testing phase started way, way later than we would have liked.

That's insane, sorry to hear you have been dealing with that. You are a volunteer dev and there is literally no 'blame' to place upon you. Anyone playing this game, donating or not, getting antsy about not production is being completely inappropriate. Take care of yourself first.  Hope the time soon comes when you are on the other side of such insanity. 

[twozerofoxtrot]

2 hours ago, Faultline said:

Well, the move was a disaster; I was robbed upon arrival at the new country

 

Really sorry to hear that happened to you and all the resulting fallout.

[Paradox Fate]

3 hours ago, CloudMouse said:

That's insane, sorry to hear you have been dealing with that. You are a volunteer dev and there is literally no 'blame' to place upon you. Anyone playing this game, donating or not, getting antsy about not production is being completely inappropriate. Take care of yourself first.  Hope the time soon comes when you are on the other side of such insanity. 

 

It's not that its inappropriate but people donate to keep the servers running, so there is very likely a interest of what is being worked on in the background that could alter or change the way they play on the said server. And this is not about Faultline's problems but something in general.

 

As Troo said, you shouldn't need to be in Discord to be in the loop when we have a forum, where you can put something in 'Announcements' for everyone easily to see the moment you visit this page. Discord is good for active discussions, but if you are someone who is infrequently popping your head into it, you tend to miss out on a lot of things there unless you made Threads, which is not the case.

 

I know, I am persistent on this issue here, but I have seen a few games where transparency started to be an issue and people got upset about the lack of any in-progress updates, slowly piling up on the "What's next? Where's the update? Anything?!" argument, giving mods unnecessary extra work to pacify them as time went on. And it usually gets worse from there.

 

 ... until they came around and suddenly announcing Fortnite emotes to their game via MTX. Imagine that fallout when this was announced all of the sudden after a few months of silence. Out of the blue, with no prior hints or anything.

 

So I do not expect a essay on what's going on right now from the top, most would be happy with something in the line of "2023 - Where we stand now.", "Hey, we are still here - Things got a bit bumpy, but we are still on it.", perhaps giving a brief insight about what's going on and perhaps promise a follow up on it a few months later.

 

That's all it takes to keep the folks happy.

 

 

Sorry about what happened to you, Faultline.

 

Edited March 4, 2023 by Paradox Fate

[Bionic_Flea]

6 hours ago, Faultline said:

disaster

Anything we can do to help? 

 

2 hours ago, Paradox Fate said:

That's all it takes to keep the folks happy.

 Sorry, but no, it isn't.  Some folks perhaps, but there are always those that want more.

 

I understand the desire to have things on the forums and not on Discord.  Believe me, I hate that thing and was really upset when they were doing the Weekly Discussions exclusively on the HC Discord.

 

But this game has always had a Closed Beta and an Open Beta before anything is published in the live game.  My understanding is that many games do the same.  It certainly makes sense to try something in a smaller, restricted setting before releasing it to a much broader audience.  And it's not just games that do this.  Movies, books, even consumer products get reviewed, tested, and critiqued by a small audience prior to public display.  It doesn't make sense for Coke to announce their new Pineapple-Rutabaga soda to the public before having some taste testers, focus groups, and test markets first.  If Coke announced it and then decided to go a different way, some people would be disappointed that they didn't get to try it and others would be criticizing it before trying it. 

 

Closed Beta and Open Beta are taste testers, focus groups, and test markets.  If you want to be one of those, join Bopper's Gold Standard Discord, engage in discussions, ask to join Closed Beta, actually test stuff,  . . . and don't leak info about Pineapple-Rutabaga Coke!

[blue4333]

I think it's much more transparent to cut out the middleman and remove Closed Beta completely. Have the community be able to pop into upcoming patches and voice their opinions before things become mostly concrete in Open Beta.

 

One, it's simply being transparent for a server that constantly reinforces the sense of community and two, it prevents an echo-chamber and the resulting backlash in Open Beta. Remember the Double XP farm nerf, Base TP Macro, Defense Type Changes, Fire Melee changes? Let the community decide via their involvement and not a smaller group of Closed Beta testers that were vetted by some arbitrary set of criteria in a Discord with Patch Notes on another forum.
 

[Luminara]

2 hours ago, Paradox Fate said:

So I do not expect a essay on what's going on right now from the top, most would be happy with something in the line of "2023 - Where we stand now.", "Hey, we are still here - Things got a bit bumpy, but we are still on it.", perhaps giving a brief insight about what's going on and perhaps promise a follow up on it a few months later.

 

That's all it takes to keep the folks happy.

 

HC team: "We're talking about doing C, G, M and X."
First post: "You promised you'd look into Y!"

Dev reply: "We never said we weren't looking into Y, we're just doing these other things right now."
Seventh post: "X is power creep, it'll break the game!"

Dev reply: "X is controlled, it won't affect the rest of the game."
Eighth post: "I don't care about G, it doesn't do anything for me!"

Dev reply: "G isn't the only thing we're working on..."
Fourteenth post: "There was nothing wrong with C, why do you hate <insert clique>?!"

Dev reply: "Huh?"

Twenty third post: "Is this going to fix <insert whine about previous change>?"

Dev reply: "..."

Several pages of tangential arguments later, GMs manage to wrestle the thread into something faintly resembling the topic.

Eleventh page: "but y tho"

Twelfth page: "You said you were going to do this four hundred years ago, what's taking so long?!"

Seventeenth page: "I don't understand why the powers guys are wasting time on this when they could be fixing my costume bugs!"
Nineteenth page: "I don't understand why the costume girl is wasting time on this when she could be fixing powers bugs!"
Twenty sixth page: "Lumi's gone ape shit!  Someone get a mop!"

Fortieth page: "hay gize my thing dont not werk how 2 fix it"

Eighteen pages of squabbling.

GMs lock thread.

 

Next morning: new thread asking what the developers are working on and why haven't posted anything about it.

[Paradox Fate]

5 minutes ago, Bionic_Flea said:

 It doesn't make sense for Coke to announce their new Pineapple-Rutabaga soda to the public before having some taste testers, focus groups, and test markets first.  If Coke announced it and then decided to go a different way, some people would be disappointed that they didn't get to try it and others would be criticizing it before trying it. 

 

Closed Beta and Open Beta are taste testers, focus groups, and test markets.  If you want to be one of those, join Bopper's Gold Standard Discord, engage in discussions, ask to join Closed Beta, actually test stuff,  . . . and don't leak info about Pineapple-Rutabaga Coke!

 

If Coke or similar would consider making something of a new flavor, they tend to research and perform surveys before even making a 'Beta' and allocate resources to bring in testers and groups. So social media picks upon it and people go 'Huh, so they have Pineapple-Ratabaga and Vanilla-Cheesecake Coke as a option to possibly implement as a new flavor in their lineup. Interesting!" and throw in their vote in. The larger the number of voters, the more accurate the data. Then you see the more quiet phase with testers and focus groups, though sometimes companies offer spots for that when it happens. Again, social media being the carrying element here and letting them actively know they are working on something.

 

Same goes with games industry at the moment - With companies performing surveys on remakes the players want to see from older titles. And if they pull this off elegantly enough, you get amazing title remakes. And the companies rake in the money while the players are happy. A win-win for everyone.

 

But that's not here and there.

 

This is not about Closed or Open Betas, they have their places.

This is more about someone from the top making a post in Announcement in this very forum to reassure us that something is being done in the back after all these months. And if that is the case, perhaps offer a tiny glimpse behind the curtain before going: "You like to see more? How about helping us out by opting in for Beta testing by visiting these Discord servers, so you will be the first one to know!"

[Glacier Peak]

10 hours ago, Troo said:

Shouldn't have to be on Discord to be in the loop.

It's the Homecoming team's decision thankfully and not yours.