Sometimes help is not helpful

[macskull]

On 10/22/2023 at 10:27 PM, TheMoneyMaker said:

Just want to say that I feel like HC is doing a disservice to the legacy of the original game and the casual players who do not care about completely accurate numbers info or want to rely on poking further into additonal windows or using an outside source just to get an idea of which power in a set hits harder or not as hard as the others.  I don't care about how it can change with slotting or whatever else.  I want to be able to pick a power quick and easy and then not regret it later because they decided to not carry on the traditions of the old developers.  I mean, if they aren't going to do that, just throw out all the rules and stop calling the game what it was and just make it something entirely new.

You must be real fun at parties.

 

The text descriptions for powers were always vague and sometimes outright incorrect to the point of being next to useless, if the powers even had them. Looking at Blasters, for example, only Archery has the text descriptions.

 

I've seen it mentioned or implied a few times in this thread that the Homecoming team has been removing those text descriptions, but I'm unable to find any source for this, and some of the sets they have worked on still have the descriptions.

 

EDIT: Took a look at the Wayback archive version of CoD and it does show that text description for most powers, so I'll concede that it was likely done post-shutdown. That being said, it still takes all of two seconds to look at the differences between two powers and figure out which one you want to take, and now you can make a more informed decision with actual, (usually) correct data. I don't see a downside here.

 

EDIT EDIT: Also, like... please don't rely on ingame help chat for actual help. The ingame help channel is about as reliable as a Ford Pinto.

Edited October 25, 2023 by macskull

[drbuzzard]

Yes, we must absolutely have vague, fuzzy descriptors included, no matter the effort involved, even though you can actually look at the numbers and compare things in a quantitative fashion (with minimal effort). 

 

I nominate TheMoneyMaker to edit all the files for the game to restore this and then field all the complaints when the fuzzy descriptions tick people off. 

[PeregrineFalcon]

If they do anything with the tool tip I'd prefer they replaced the Light/Med/Whatever DMG line with a number. That number being the base unmodified damage at level 50. I picked that number because I'm guessing that the tool tips aren't capable of dynamically updating to take level, and other bonuses, into account. So the line would look something like:

"Melee, 53 Smashing Damage (at 50), -Defense"

 

Obviously this would be a time consuming find and replace job for one person, but I have no idea how difficult it would be.

 

I'm also not convinced that anyone would actually benefit from the change, which would basically just make it a waste of time.

[Scarlet Shocker]

On 10/23/2023 at 5:21 AM, Snarky said:

some of CoH early dev theory was to purposefully mislead players about things.  especially dps

 

Am I wrong in the presumption of sarcasm here?

[Snarky]

2 minutes ago, Scarlet Shocker said:

 

Am I wrong in the presumption of sarcasm here?

you are indeed wrong. not sarcasm. well documented fact.

[Scarlet Shocker]

47 minutes ago, Snarky said:

you are indeed wrong. not sarcasm. well documented fact.

 

I've never read that but given they gave us real numbers must've been back in the earliest days so I'm wondering if a Dev Named Jack was the culprit?

[Spaghetti Betty]

25 minutes ago, Scarlet Shocker said:

 

I've never read that but given they gave us real numbers must've been back in the earliest days so I'm wondering if a Dev Named Jack was the culprit?

Jack absolutely wanted to keep everyone in the dark about what happened behind the curtains. Remember, this is the same guy that thought debt-capping added "challenge" and every TF should be "D&D campaign"-levels of group investment. Was the game tougher back then? Absolutely. But a lot of the difficulty was artificially placed to keep new players drowning and continuing subs to make any kind of progress.

Detailed info was still given to us relatively early in the game's life-cycle, but even what was given to us came with its own slew of general glitchiness. My memory is hazy on when it was added but something is convincing me it was around the advent of the IO system. I'm probably wrong on that.

Edited October 25, 2023 by Spaghetti Betty

[Scarlet Shocker]

59 minutes ago, Spaghetti Betty said:

Jack absolutely wanted to keep everyone in the dark about what happened behind the curtains. Remember, this is the same guy that thought debt-capping added "challenge" and every TF should be "D&D campaign"-levels of group investment. Was the game tougher back then? Absolutely. But a lot of the difficulty was artificially placed to keep new players drowning and continuing subs to make any kind of progress.

Detailed info was still given to us relatively early in the game's life-cycle, but even what was given to us came with its own slew of general glitchiness. My memory is hazy on when it was added but something is convincing me it was around the advent of the IO system. I'm probably wrong on that.

 

 

Kind of makes sense. Before I joined ('06) but I think he'd taken a big back seat from it by then. Thanks for the input

[Luminara]

9 minutes ago, Scarlet Shocker said:

 

I've never read that but given they gave us real numbers must've been back in the earliest days so I'm wondering if a Dev Named Jack was the culprit?

 

Yes.  He had an idealized conceptualization of the game as a multiplayer Metroidvania, which wouldn't need players to be informed to any degree of specificity.  He also believed that keeping certain things hidden would shape the player's approach to and expectations of the game.  Basically, keeping people uneducated and under control was his policy.  He could've done well as a politician.

[Bionic_Flea]

"Real Numbers" aka Combat Attributes was added February 12, 2008.

 

https://archive.paragonwiki.com/wiki/Patch_Notes/2008-02-12

[Riverdusk]

For dev time on something like this I'd rather see some more clean up on the actual in-game numbers given.  Things like that all the corruptor "Avg. Damage" and such numbers listed include scourge, which I have to always halve the numbers in my head to get the real base damage and DPA, and I know that is a rough way to do it that doesn't always work out.    Probably some people like to see the "potential" damage listed though when scourge does kick in, so maybe it is just me.  I'd make the argument though in that case that controller's attack averages and DPA would make more sense to show containment damage included as I find that happens much more consistently than scourge does for corruptor's.

 

Worse is probably how many melee attack average damage numbers and such include things like "fiery embrace" in their damage numbers that aren't relevant to most people.  So, I have to subtract that out to once again get the real actual base damage and get out the calculator to figure out the actual DPA.  Often fiery embrace is included on some powers, but not others, so not even consistent (scrapper katana Sting of the Wasp vs. Gambler's cut a perfect example).   That does prove to me though that it is 'fixable' as some include it and some don't in the averages at top even though it is listed in the breakdown for both.

 

But I know most people just use and trust Mid's now a days for everything like that, so likely very low priority for most people I imagine.

Edited October 25, 2023 by Riverdusk

[TheMoneyMaker]

On 10/23/2023 at 12:33 PM, arcane said:

Those descriptors have never been reliable and the people that tried to help you were being helpful. Relying on those descriptors would be silly.

Who said I was or even wanted to rely on those descriptions?  I said I use them for at a glance indication of what powers generally do.  I'm not trying to base a character build on it, and I never asked anyone to solve "my problem" by suggesting better ways to have more accurate information.

 

But as I said in the title of this post....sometimes help isn't helpful.

[Sanguinesun]

On 10/26/2023 at 5:59 AM, Luminara said:

 

Yes.  He had an idealized conceptualization of the game as a multiplayer Metroidvania, which wouldn't need players to be informed to any degree of specificity.  He also believed that keeping certain things hidden would shape the player's approach to and expectations of the game.  Basically, keeping people uneducated and under control was his policy.  He could've done well as a politician.

 

People are just dancing around it in this thread but Im just going to say it.  He was, and still is, a shyster. Period. 

[Techwright]

Coming in late to this, and maybe the headache I currently have is clouding my understanding, but is there not a simple graph from zero to infinity for what damage potentially can be caused to an opponent with no defenses in place whatsoever?  Then just assign ranges on that graph and give those ranges identities: light, medium, extra-crispy, etc.

 

My painkiller-begging brain is seeing this as like a Scoville scale:  is that sauce hitting at 2,500 - 8000? That's a Jalapeno.  Is it melting you at 1,400,000 - 2,200,000?  That's a Carolina Reaper.   The pepper names are quick shorthand for me.  If I hear the sauce has jalapenos, I know I will enjoy it.  If I hear Carolina Reaper, I know to avoid it.  I don't have to ask for the numbers.   So in comparison, whether by devs or by players, can this not be done simply?

 

I'm...going to go find meds now...hopefully the Extra-Super Migraine Killer kind.  Not sure what the numbers are, but I know it will probably work.

[Snarky]

44 minutes ago, Techwright said:

Coming in late to this, and maybe the headache I currently have is clouding my understanding, but is there not a simple graph from zero to infinity for what damage potentially can be caused to an opponent with no defenses in place whatsoever?  Then just assign ranges on that graph and give those ranges identities: light, medium, extra-crispy, etc.

 

My painkiller-begging brain is seeing this as like a Scoville scale:  is that sauce hitting at 2,500 - 8000? That's a Jalapeno.  Is it melting you at 1,400,000 - 2,200,000?  That's a Carolina Reaper.   The pepper names are quick shorthand for me.  If I hear the sauce has jalapenos, I know I will enjoy it.  If I hear Carolina Reaper, I know to avoid it.  I don't have to ask for the numbers.   So in comparison, whether by devs or by players, can this not be done simply?

 

I'm...going to go find meds now...hopefully the Extra-Super Migraine Killer kind.  Not sure what the numbers are, but I know it will probably work.

Yeah. Sort of.  Except imagine the kitchen team did not want you to know how hot it really was. So they added vague ( and intentionally incorrect) adjectives.  

[Sovera]

The minor, medium, etc damage label was useless from the start. Even back in I6 when I started two powers would have the 'moderate' label and one would do more damage than the other.

 

So the label being there or not being there will not be informative, and, yes, checking the info of the power is where we see the actual numbers.

[Sovera]

On 11/1/2023 at 9:09 AM, TheMoneyMaker said:

Who said I was or even wanted to rely on those descriptions?  I said I use them for at a glance indication of what powers generally do.  I'm not trying to base a character build on it, and I never asked anyone to solve "my problem" by suggesting better ways to have more accurate information.

 

But as I said in the title of this post....sometimes help isn't helpful.

 

On the contrary. They gave you the information you needed, just not the information you wanted.

[Bionic_Flea]

3 hours ago, Sovera said:

On the contrary. They gave you the information you needed, just not the information you wanted.

 

Help Channel: The Batman of information. 

 

You get the information you deserve, not the information you need.

[biostem]

Sometimes even knowing the base numbers isn't that useful, what with it not taking into account enhancements, set bonuses, or other such "meta-powers" like assault or other such buffs.  Still, those numbers can be handy to determine, in a very tight build, which power has a recharge/activation or other such factors that may make it more or less desirable to include or skip...

[Doomguide2005]

On 11/4/2023 at 7:12 PM, Bionic_Flea said:

 

Help Channel: The Batman of information. 

 

You get the information you deserve, not the information you need.

Help channel is sort of like stopping random folks on the street.  Sometimes you get actual knowledge from someone knowledgeable, sometimes not so much ... kind of like the descriptive text now that I think about 🤪

[srmalloy]

1 hour ago, Doomguide2005 said:

Sometimes you get actual knowledge from someone knowledgeable, sometimes not so much ...

A man in a hot air balloon realized he was lost. He reduced altitude and spotted a woman below. He descended a bit more and shouted, "Excuse me, can you help me? I promised a friend I would meet him an hour ago, but I don't know where I am."

 

The woman below replied, "You are in a hot air balloon hovering approximately 30 feet above the ground. You are between 40 and 41 degrees north latitude and between 59 and 60 degrees west longitude." 

 

"You must be a programmer," said the balloonist. 

 

"I am" replied the woman, "How did you know?" 

 

"Well," answered the balloonist, "Everything you told me is technically correct, but I have no idea what to make of your information, and the fact is I am still lost. Frankly, you've not been much help so far." 

 

The woman below responded, "You must be a manager." 

 

"I am," replied the balloonist, "But how did you know?" 

 

"Well," said the woman, "You don't know where you are or where you are going. You have risen to where you are due to a large quantity of hot air. You made a promise which you have no idea how to keep, and you expect me to solve your problem. The fact is you are in exactly the same position you were in before we met, but now, somehow it's my fault."

[TheMoneyMaker]

On 11/4/2023 at 3:21 PM, Sovera said:

 

On the contrary. They gave you the information you needed, just not the information you wanted.

Don't contrary me.  I knew the information they gave me, so they were literally giving me no help.

Giving me the info I asked for would have been helpful.  When somone asks questions, they aren't looking for anyone to interpret what they think asker needs and ignore what they are asking for and certainly don't need anyone trying to gaslight them about how things have always been the way they are now even back on Live.  And no one needs you trying explain how I got what I needed.  You don't know what I needed, so just jump right out of this conversation because you're not helpful either.

[GM Crumpet]

I think Jack fell into the trap of assuming players would play to his expectations rather than do what players always do and that's go off piste at the first opportunity and break anything that's breakable. That's one of the reasons we (and other games) love players who take part in beta testing as they often find massive bugs and exploits the devs never even noticed or considered. He also failed to understand his audience. Nerds will nerd. Nerds want to know every little bit of information and will make extensive studies to work out exactly what "average" means and how much better "superior" is. I'm a geek, I am very interested and excited with the genres and franchises I follow and can talk passionately about them, but I'm happy to play a game and don't care what's under the hood. I'm Jacks audience 😛 

 

Even as a GM I'm not very up on the mechanics of the game. I'm great at the social aspects and the helping stuff, but ask me why your powerful PC with awesome graphics card and huge memory is running like a snail on a railroad track I have to pass it to the nerds on the team. They are far cleverer than me. They do the hard work while I sit at the back of the class with the safety scissors and glitter making fridge pictures 🙂 

And just to clarify, I'm not using the term nerd or geek as a defamatory term. To me geek is a person deep into the fandom and knowledgeable about the lore and collectibles, nerds are the ones with the brains that need to look behind the curtain and see how things work and ask the difficult questions on the mechanics of things.

[Luminara]

2 minutes ago, GM Crumpet said:

I'm Jacks audience 😛

 

I am Jack's wasted life.

[srmalloy]

18 hours ago, GM Crumpet said:

That's one of the reasons we (and other games) love players who take part in beta testing as they often find massive bugs and exploits the devs never even noticed or considered.

There is an anecdote I've never been able to confirm about the F-16 fighter that illustrates this. Supposedly, when the Air Force got the first F-16s for its flight testing, the first test pilot had gone out, done the full pre-flight, and got into the cockpit. He was looking around, and decided to do something stupid, just to see what would happen. He hit the 'gear retract' switch.

 

The landing gear retracted, dropping the plane onto the concrete. General Dynamics hurriedly modified the planes to add a 'squat switch', so the landing gear wouldn't retract if there was weight on them. Nobody in the design team had thought someone would do something that stupid.

 

This caused a secondary problem, one of pilot behavior. Knowing that the gear wouldn't retract with the plane on the ground, pilots would hit the gear retract switch as they started their takeoff run, so the gear would retract as the plane lifted off the ground; a snappy retraction so quickly after liftoff being 'strack'. Unfortunately, if a gust of wind comes down the runway, it can create enough additional lift for the plane to lift off before it has actually reached flying speed, so when the gust passes, the plane is below stall speed, and the gear having retracted when it lifted off, the pilot bends the bird as it settles back onto its belly. The use of the gear retract switch before the plane was actually in the air was formally prohibited (although I'm certain that it didn't stop entirely).

 

The developers are often the worst group for finding bugs that exist in the odd corners of a project, because they're so close to it, knowing how it should work, that it's hard to get out of that mindset and try the stupid and ridiculous things that 'nobody would ever do'.