The Ultimate Officially Unofficial Weekly Discussion #52: The Monster Mash

[SeraphimKensai]

 

 

 

 

Welcome back for the ultimate Officially Unofficial Weekly Discussion. It's been truly a blast running these over the last year. Sadly work and being a dad have reduced my capacity to keep these running. As I previously said, if anyone wants to resurrect these feel free as they were a result of people wanting the GM led weekly discussions by @GM Miss and later @GM ColdSpark

 

A year ago @Troo posted this thread below that initially reminded me of the GM led discussions.

 

@Cobalt Arachne had a great point in that thread regarding "volunteer budget" which led me to making the unofficial weekly discussions. Sadly I find my volunteer budget is about spent.

 

And so without further gilding the lily and with no more ado, I give to you the final topic in this series of discussions: the Monster Mash....

 

What are you thoughts on Giant Monster design? Please consider anything from the Kraken of Perez Park to Hamidon himself (including any giant monsters within missions or TFs as well). Are these encounters engaging? Does it balance risk vs reward? Are they too easy, too hard or somewhere in between? Are you soloing them or forming small teams, or even leagues for them? How's the frequency that you encounter them? If you had carte blanche to design a new giant monster for the game, what would you make?

 

As always thanks for playing.

 

And in response to @DougGraves's thread:

All I can say is....

 

 

Thanks again folks, I'll see ya in game or probably other forum posts.

 

 

Edited November 2, 2023 by SeraphimKensai

[Snarky]

Well Hami is epic.  Both in audacity and execution.  The original Dev team decided to create a giant HP Amoeba and did not back off that bold, simple, stupid design.  Then created lore behind it.  Kudos.  It actually worked.  (Mostly because playas be playas…)

 

The best GM is sort of just an AV….when Tyrant goes godzilla in the Magisterium.  But that fight is epic, especially for badges.  
 

In all I enjoy the variety, lore, and dispersal throughout the city and isles of the GMs.  My favorite (and most frustrating) hunts are for Caleb for badge.  So good when it happens.  
 

My least favorite is Sally, mainly due to griefing from other players.  People really suck sometimes.  

[UltraAlt]

5 hours ago, SeraphimKensai said:

Welcome back for the ultimate Officially Unofficial Weekly Discussion.

 

I'm really glad that you took time to lead this.

You brought up interesting things for discussion.

 

In most cases, people just posted their input and didn't get into any back-and-forth about things.

I think that is a plus.

 

We all come at the game from different angles and different levels of experience.

This gave people a place to just provide their viewpoint on the topic.

 

5 hours ago, SeraphimKensai said:

What are you thoughts on Giant Monster design?

 

There seem to be more than one "league" of kaiju.

 

I think there are two "leagues" that I'll call "King Kong" and "Godzilla"

I'm using these terms for this reason.

King Kong originally was supposed to be like 40 foot tall, but they modeling they used in the original movie he was really only like 18-24 foot tall.

Godzilla was 164 feet tall (50 meters). 

 

"King Kong" is a team-sized GM.

"Godzilla" is a league sized GM.

There is a place for both.

 

Most GMs are "King Kong" rated.

Hami is definitely "Godzilla" rated.

I think Lusca is kind of in-between when Incarnates are involved.

 

I would say that the "Godzilla" rated ones are lacking, but there really doesn't seem much interest in battling the baby hami in First Ward (maybe the rewards aren't good enough?)

 

I like the variation of the appearance of the different "King Kong" level ones. When it comes down to it, the fighting seems to be all the same. No really different tactic is obvious to me to be more or less effective against one "King Kong" level GM versus another one.

 

I love a good monster hunt going from zone to zone trying to track them down and fight them. I don't know where all of them can spawn, so I'm usually joining teams where someone seems to know what is going on versus trying to lead one.

 

5 hours ago, SeraphimKensai said:

If you had carte blanche to design a new giant monster for the game, what would you make?

 

I'll have to think about this one and get back to you. (Are there any zones other than Atlas, the Hollows, and Striga that are missing AVs?)

 

Okay, so maybe I'll still be getting back to you, but ...

 

Atlas: I would put it in Argosy Industrial Park as that is so under used at this point. Since 5th Column are back in the game, I would lead towards making the GM a 5th Column Robot. It could run around the factory area defeating the non-5th Column in the area until it is destroyed. I would give it mostly lethal and smashing attacks with maybe some energy mixed in. "King Kong" rating.

 

The Hollows: I would go with a giant Minions of Igneous down in Grendel's Gulch (which is also under used). I would give this one smashing and fire attacks with some lethal or toxic mixed in.  "King Kong" rating.

 

Striga: What if PCs didn't stop the Giant Robot - better known as "The Mech Man" - from being completed, and it rose out of its volcanic construction site to terrorize Paragon City?! Sure. The hero event starts off in Striga, but then it travels into the City proper (if not defeated in a set amount of time)? Next striding into Talos before heading for Peregrine island? A new mechanic, but still. I would figure this one would get the "Godzilla" rating (just because that is the whole point of a giant robot built to destroy Paragon City ... it could have been stopped by a team/task force, but now that it's built it will take a league to defeat it).

 

 

5 hours ago, SeraphimKensai said:

As always thanks for playing.

 

And so, here is the asked one, what is your favorite GM to fight?

 

My favorite GM to fight was always the ones controlled by the DEVs.

Those were some of the most epic battles ever.

Heck, even when they were just attacking Paragon with Rogue Isle AVs, it was awesome.

 

I remember one massive DEV-controlled GM battle on top of city hall in Atlas Park. Epic.

[A Cat]

I like them in general, though some are way more epic than others. Some are really not all that big or special. One of my favorites is the Seed of Hamidon. It is just so intimidating and dominant in First Ward. I still remember the first time seeing it with my bro and we both freaked out and just ran. It's presence and atmosphere is just so good. 

[Uun]

Other than Hami and possibly Lusca, most of them aren't particularly challenging. Just burn them down with DPS. If it weren't for the quick merits, I think people would ignore them. I'd like to see them pick up some abilities that would require you to use strategy in fighting them. 

[Greycat]

20 hours ago, SeraphimKensai said:

What are you thoughts on Giant Monster design? Please consider anything from the Kraken of Perez Park to Hamidon himself (including any giant monsters within missions or TFs as well). Are these encounters engaging? Does it balance risk vs reward? Are they too easy, too hard or somewhere in between? Are you soloing them or forming small teams, or even leagues for them? How's the frequency that you encounter them? If you had carte blanche to design a new giant monster for the game, what would you make?

 

 

Most of the GMs are, frankly, boring. They're just bigger bags of hit points it takes maybe a solid minute for a team to finish off instead of a few seconds. There's not a lot *interesting* about them. (I don't really put Hamidon in that category, but ... still kind of true.)

 

I wish there were more to them.

 

There are a few that give a bit of flavor - Scrapyard and the scrapyarders come to mind.  That at least makes it interesting... but not interesting enough to consider it more than six merits after doing it the first time. Jack and Eochai have a bit of lore to them too, but... again, just big bags of HP that give merits.

 

Lusca - who should be worth more merits - is at least an *encounter* that takes time to do. (The flip side, Adamastor should either be worth fewer - I think what his bonus is a hangover from is having to actually earn something to summon him, which is no longer the case - or there should be more to him.)

 

The Council Goliath is also an *encounter,* at least - there's something to do to get to the chewy gooey center of 6 merits on that one.

 

Babbage and the Kronos Titan (sounds like an ... odd band) at least have a little "special" to them from being part of task forces, though Babbage can be found wandering about in Boomtown as well. And the Halloween banner event at least - again - has you doing something to bring it out, and *then* track it down.

 

But honestly? When I see people say "ooh, I want a GM in THIS zone too, and THIS one!" I just kind of groan because... they're *just not interesting.*  Maybe if they *weren't* out as frequently they'd be more interesting, but it's almost "hourly monster teams" with not much work (other than getting the team together and a little looking at known spawn points in the zones) for a pile of merits.

 

If I were designing a GM encounter from scratch? I don't know. I'd do more than plop a six merit pile of HP in a zone. Maybe something that requires the team/league to split up. Maybe they have to defeat minions of the GM to get pieces of a ritual to put together - and use the *right* pieces - to weaken the GM and/or strengthen the players. Add some sort of strategy to it. I honestly couldn't lay out a design right now for one. I'd just want it to be an *encounter,* an *event,* instead of a merit vending machine.

[DougGraves]

I am grateful to you for creating these for so long and hope someone else picks it up.  I nominate Snarky.

 

For GMs I find them cool but generally boring.  You stand in a group and spam attacks and healing.  Which is basically how all events go.

 

 

[SeraphimKensai]

17 hours ago, UltraAlt said:

what is your favorite GM to fight?

 

My favorite GM to fight was always the ones controlled by the DEVs.

In this game my favorite is probably between Lusca and the abandoned sewer trials Hydra. Maybe Kronos is next in line.

 

GM controlled monsters/bosses in lots of MMOs are usually a fun time.

 

3 hours ago, Greycat said:

Add some sort of strategy to it.

That's part of the reason I like Eden or the Abandoned Sewer Trials. I'm all for having interesting events and consequences that affect players outcomes.

 

47 minutes ago, DougGraves said:

You stand in a group and spam attacks and healing.  Which is basically how all events go.

At least it isn't as bad as in EVE Online pressing F1.

 

Personally for me I suggested a GM Kheldian encounter with some proposed Kheldian changes a few years ago that I always envisioned would be a cool fight. As much as I like soloing GMs for the challenge, but realize the fact that I and others can solo the majority of them means that to a team or league they aren't the most engaging.

 

That all said I don't think every zone needs one for the sake of having one, but I like them to be story driven and connected to the lore.

 

I do like the GM encounters in hard mode ITF and ASF as well.

[Icono04]

1 hour ago, DougGraves said:

I nominate Snarky.

 I second this nomination.  😉

 

3 hours ago, Greycat said:

If I were designing a GM encounter from scratch? I don't know. I'd do more than plop a six merit pile of HP in a zone. Maybe something that requires the team/league to split up. Maybe they have to defeat minions of the GM to get pieces of a ritual to put together - and use the *right* pieces - to weaken the GM and/or strengthen the players. Add some sort of strategy to it. I honestly couldn't lay out a design right now for one. I'd just want it to be an *encounter,* an *event,* instead of a merit vending machine.

I agree with the idea to require a bit of thinking by the teams/leagues who fight the GM's. I personally prefer something fairly simple, like the forcefield projectors in Market Crash' Big Red Robot fight or the Essences at the end of Dilemma Diabolique, i.e. some kind of of invulnerability gizmo that has to be disabled multiple times during the fight. The Reichsmann fights at the end of Barracuda's and Dr Kahn's  SF/TF also have some interesting "you must do this, and you absolutely mustn't do that" requirements.

I prefer it to be be something which league leaders can explain to their minions league members in a few concise sentences - prepping for the battle and designating team members' roles should not be a very time consuming task. Easy to explain, difficult to actually do, that is how I prefer it.

 

I would not want to add any new GMs to CoH. If anything, I suspect we have a few too many GMs overall. Generally speaking, the more rare (rarer?) something is, the more likely people are to consider it precious and thus worth taking the time to team up for. 

[BurtHutt]

I don't mind the system etc. My biggest complaints are the looks of some of the GMs. The Kraken is an iconic creature. However, in CoX, he looks like a blob of human waste. There are some other GMs that're like this.

 

I also thought it'd be nice to add some additional GMs for events etc. 

 

I wish the HC team would re-skin a few of the less impressive GMs and then add some new ones for events. Holiday GMs that come around only during that window? 

 

There was a player who suggested something to do with the zodiac. I then added a suggestion that they do GMs corresponding to the zodiac and only came out during their corresponding time periods. Getting all 12 would result in a power or something like that.

 

[Glacier Peak]

Wow a whole year making these! Nice work @SeraphimKensai!

[Techwright]

12 hours ago, Greycat said:

 

Most of the GMs are, frankly, boring. They're just bigger bags of hit points it takes maybe a solid minute for a team to finish off instead of a few seconds. There's not a lot *interesting* about them. (I don't really put Hamidon in that category, but ... still kind of true.)

 

I wish there were more to them.

 

 

Agreed on the boring, which is a tad sad as I feel they should be some of the most interesting things in the game.

 

Agreed on desiring more of them, and though I didn't quote it, agreed on Lusca should be worth more merits.

 

Really, for being one of the two toughest categories in the game (Arch-villain/hero being the other), these should really be more of a challenge, as in "I'm a bit nervous, my palms are starting to sweat, but I can't wait to jump into the fight". 

 

Instead we have Adamaster whom I've seen dropped in 3 seconds before.  Speaking of him, could his durability and attacks not be scaled to the number of opponents within attack range? 

 

Sally, I realize, was created as a joke.  That said, it's frustrating trying to get the needed kills to get the badge.  I've characters heavily played since 2019 that still do not have the requisite number of hits.  Wondering if the number of appearances could be increased but with a trade-off:  Sally would gain a surprise, lethal attack that has a 1 in 10 or 1 in 20 chance of happening.  Something akin to mechanics behind Secondary Mutation's occasional penalty of morphing into a Rikti monkey.

 

Malta Titans are fun to take down, mostly because of their seemingly random appearances in the city, but their attacks feel without teeth.  I'm wondering if, since they're robots, they could be made to move faster and have more impact.  As it is, the robots in BAF feel more dangerous.

 

And that pretty much goes for all the other GMs as well, at least on the Blue Side.  The "Rumble In The Valley" over in Croatoa should really feel like a war we've gotten ourselves into rather than a series of posturing and name calling.

 

I'll give an over-the-top example of what I'd love to see:  Nearly 2 decades ago now, when the first expansion, Burning Crusade was about to hit WoW, I was unemployed and up at 2am working my avatar near the Southwind gate when the unexpected happened and for the next few hours the gate came under attack by what was seen as a giant monster.  The assault was furious, and the gate was thick with corpses as so many of the best character on the shard fell to the monster's attacks.  It was glorious, and people were very excited.  We didn't know, initially, that the creature was created impervious.  We'd seen just enough dip in it's hit point that we assumed he could eventually be destroyed, and that's what kept people coming back to the fight: the glory of a hard-won victory.   I'm not saying make the GMs on CoH that tough, but am saying they should last much more than a few seconds or even a minute or two.  GM's should be epic, the kind of fights you recall fondly for years afterwards, not a simple bucket of Halloween candy to plunder.

 

 

By the way, are there even GMs over in Gold Side? 

 

[UltraAlt]

1 hour ago, Techwright said:

Sally, I realize, was created as a joke.  That said, it's frustrating trying to get the needed kills to get the badge.

 

Well, they are "sightings" and not necessarily kills, but I understand that  you have plink her with something to get credit.

 

 

1 hour ago, Techwright said:

And that pretty much goes for all the other GMs as well, at least on the Blue Side.  The "Rumble In The Valley" over in Croatoa should really feel like a war we've gotten ourselves into rather than a series of posturing and name calling.

 

More GM-scaled minions running around, or the GM's actually fighting each other?

 

 

Edited November 4, 2023 by UltraAlt

[UltraAlt]

1 hour ago, Techwright said:

By the way, are there even GMs over in Gold Side? 

 

Only if the Seed of Hamidon in First Ward counts.

 

https://homecoming.wiki/wiki/Giant_Monster

[Uun]

10 hours ago, Techwright said:

I'll give an over-the-top example of what I'd love to see:  Nearly 2 decades ago now, when the first expansion, Burning Crusade was about to hit WoW, I was unemployed and up at 2am working my avatar near the Southwind gate when the unexpected happened and for the next few hours the gate came under attack by what was seen as a giant monster.  The assault was furious, and the gate was thick with corpses as so many of the best character on the shard fell to the monster's attacks.  It was glorious, and people were very excited.  We didn't know, initially, that the creature was created impervious.  We'd seen just enough dip in it's hit point that we assumed he could eventually be destroyed, and that's what kept people coming back to the fight: the glory of a hard-won victory.   I'm not saying make the GMs on CoH that tough, but am saying they should last much more than a few seconds or even a minute or two.  GM's should be epic, the kind of fights you recall fondly for years afterwards, not a simple bucket of Halloween candy to plunder.

When the Dr. Kahn TF was first added, Invincible Reichsman in the 2nd mission wasn't originally coded as untouchable. Rather than exiting the mission, we decided to fight him. That was an epic fight, and hugely satisfying when we defeated him. GM fights should feel like that.

 

[Techwright]

11 hours ago, UltraAlt said:

 

Well, they are "sightings" and not necessarily kills, but I understand that  you have plink her with something to get credit.

 

 

More GM-scaled minions running around, or the GM's actually fighting each other?

 

 

Have you seen Sally's reaction to getting tagged? That has to be the most painful "sighting".  😉

 

As to the Croatoa fight,  more chaos, more threat to the players.  Perhaps the fights vary and I've just not seen things, but generally I see one GM enter from one distant side, the other from the other distant side, and neither of them get to each other before being taken down by the players. Maybe have the GM parties show up in a closer starting position to each other?  Use a cloud as portal if you don't like them appearing in thin air.  The minions hardly matter, except for an occasional well-placed lightning strike by one of the witches hovering nearby or a good strike by one of the Red Caps in the area.  Maybe increase to several EBs in the GM support groups?  Something that doesn't make me think the crowd threw spit wads at us.  Some ramped up GM abilities might be nice.   Most of the time, it feels like they do little but stand there and take punishment. 

[UltraAlt]

On 11/4/2023 at 10:12 AM, Techwright said:

Have you seen Sally's reaction to getting tagged? That has to be the most painful "sighting".  😉

 

Kind of more like "ow, a flea just bit me." and a lazy dive to the bottom to roll around in the mud and scrape it off.

 

On 11/4/2023 at 10:12 AM, Techwright said:

Most of the time, it feels like they do little but stand there and take punishment. 

 

Do you think they should flee if they feel they are being beaten?

Call for reinforcements? 

[Bionic_Flea]

42 minutes ago, UltraAlt said:

"ow, a flea just bit me."

 

In  the immortal words of Shaggy:

 

[Shred Monkey]

GM are OK as is, with the exception of Lusca who should give more merits because it's a much longer fight.  Maybe Seeds of Hami in Praetoria also should get more rewards.  6 merits is a nice reward for a 1 minute fight.  But not worth taking 10 minutes and the pain and hastle of organizing a league.

 

However, we do need more battles that take 10 minutes to organize and lead with rewards that make it worth the trouble.  I think the incarnate trials fill this gap a bit, and Hami as well.  But I'd like to see more.