Focused Feedback: Epic / Ancillary Power Pools

[Cheli]

55 minutes ago, golstat2003 said:

I think one thing that's coming out of this feedback is that many of the ancillary/patron powers are just not worthy of being considered a level 35+ pick when compared to other primary and secondary picks you've been using for many levels prior to access to the "epic" powers.

I for one admittedly only take many of them for the set bonuses and places to get Resistance bonuses by using them as mules. Apparently I was not the only one. LOL

 

The patrons especially I often have a hard time justifying them if they are not needed in my build.

 

Surely somtehing the HC team can look at in the future (yes it's too late for this Page).

 

EDIT: And to be fair this is not a knock agains the HC dev team. Paragon SEEMED to have some really ass backwards ideas that the ancillary/patron pools could not be competitive with the primary secondary picks where possible. I vehemently disagreed with that idea and still do.

This is how I feel about the stated reasoning for soul drain being nerfed: the explicit justification is to bring it in line with outmoded ideas about power balance from 15 years and 3 dev teams ago. This line of thinking gave us 9-minute hoarfrost, but it also gave us the current meta where the best picks are ones that are a) not onerously burdened by the damage nerf/extra recharge imposed by the epic power pool formula, and b) offer performance beyond what the power offers on paper, usually via proc-bombing. This is why char is as popular a pick as it is; the extra recharge and nerfed damage don't matter much when you can 6-slot proc it to hit as hard as your primary powers and also hold. 

 

Unfortunately I fear the response to that will be to nerf proc IOs instead of rebalancing epic powers to contribute more.

[Super Atom]

Why would you want the powers to be good? People might use them...

 

ridiculous. 😟

[arcane]

2 hours ago, Chris24601 said:

What's NOT too late for this page? Undoing some of the nerfs to powers that, even on live, aren't outperforming your t1-3 powers.

I’m scratching my head trying to figure out what powers meet that description. What powers are you concerned about?
 

Like obviously we all know Soul Drain or Char/Dominate are getting nerfs but those *were* overperforming. Curious which nerfs you mean.

[Chris24601]

1 hour ago, arcane said:

I’m scratching my head trying to figure out what powers meet that description. What powers are you concerned about?
 

Like obviously we all know Soul Drain or Char/Dominate are getting nerfs but those *were* overperforming. Curious which nerfs you mean.

One example; Mu Bolts going from 6s (almost enough with full slotting and sufficient global recharge to make a chain out of the four blasty Mu powers) to 8s (just enough to get that annoying "Woom" of a power not quite recharged)?

 

Also:

- Fire Blast going from 6s to 8s

- Dark Blast going from 6s to 8s

- Netherworld Tentacles from 16s to 20s

- Oppressive Gloom from 8s to 16s

- Torrent going from 15s to 30s

- Fossilize going from 80' to 60'

- Chain Fences going from 8s to 16s

- Electric Fence going from 4s to 8s

- Shocking Bolt going from 16s to 24s

- Shocking Bolts range also going from 80' to 60'

- Static Discharge going from 12s to 24s and 14.82 to 27.3 End for a measly .91 to .958 damage increase.

- Explosive Blast going from 16s to 32s

- Char going from 16s to 24s and range from 80' to 60'

- Fire Cages going from 16s to 20s

- Frostbite going from 16s to 20s

- Laser Beam Eyes going from 6s to 8s

- Dominate going from 16s to 24s

- Psionic Tornado losing a quarter of its damage over time.

- Mu Lightning from 9s to 12s

- Darkness Night going from 10s to 20s

- Oppressive Gloom going from 8s to 16s

 

All of those were already inferior to the standard versions of those powers in primary/secondaries. They're already weak enough that the only reason to ever use them is if, for some reason, you aren't able to use your normal primary/secondary attacks (ex. snagging a runner)

 

They're already subpar (ex. fully slotted Mu Bolts can still fail to drop minion runners)... why make them even worse?

 

Particularly when, by the time you unlock the ancillary pools, you've already taken every Primary and Secondary power you're actually interested in since they're all unlocked well before  you hit level 35... so your upper level experience is nothing but filler powers you're taking as slot mules or purely for a cosmetic theme (sidebar - it also ticks me off that lightning themed ancillaries for several ATs are locked behind villain content) you'll never use in challenging content because they're all inferior to the powers you've had unlocked since your teens to early-20's.

 

The move to make the capstones of your primary and secondary earlier, along with this process of nerfing the hell out of powers already inferior to the primary and secondary ones, has made the back half of the leveling process a boring grind with nothing to really look forward to except filling in the slots on your actually useful powers and then getting your incarnate powers.

 

Ancillary powers should be something you look forward to; not something you treat as an annoyance because you're not getting something actually useful like more slots at levels 35, 38, 41, 44, 47 and 49... just powers you're going to use as mules or ignore outside of faffing about against things that aren't actually a threat to you.

[arcane]

Okay so maybe your complaint has some validity to it, but everything about your post screams you should try damage procs. Char/Dominate nerfs will hit me, but many of the other ones you listed could arguably be buffs to me. 
 

And Char/Dominate were incredible. Usually the best DPA you can do besides things like Blaze and Snipes. 

[GM Tock]

Civility, please.  Also, as a blonde ex-Pacific type person, I, like, totally take umbrage to the valley personage, dude.  Chill.

[Cheli]

32 minutes ago, arcane said:

Okay so maybe your complaint has some validity to it, but everything about your post screams you should try damage procs. Char/Dominate nerfs will hit me, but many of the other ones you listed could arguably be buffs to me. 
 

And Char/Dominate were incredible. Usually the best DPA you can do besides things like Blaze and Snipes. 

This might work on a current meta, practical level but considering this is a thread where people are discussing balance and design, suggesting that the devs' design approach going forward should be 'the power is fine, it can be proc-bomb slotted' is a bit problematic.

[Chris24601]

39 minutes ago, arcane said:

Okay so maybe your complaint has some validity to it, but everything about your post screams you should try damage procs. Char/Dominate nerfs will hit me, but many of the other ones you listed could arguably be buffs to me. 
 

And Char/Dominate were incredible. Usually the best DPA you can do besides things like Blaze and Snipes. 

If you need multiple damage procs just to make an ancillary competitive (losing set bonuses, acc, recharge, etc. to frankenslotting in the process), then clearly there’s a problem with the base power.

 

Not everyone is a Mids optimizer; some people just want to throw a set of Thunderstrike into their Mu Bolts and expect it to not be outperformed by your starter attack since it didn’t even unlock until level 35.

Edited February 7 by Chris24601

[BrandX]

1 hour ago, Chris24601 said:

If you need multiple damage procs just to make an ancillary competitive (losing set bonuses to frankenslotting in the process), then clearly there’s a problem with the base power.

 

Not everyone is a Mids optimizer; some people just want to throw a set of Thunderstrike into their Mu Bolts and expect it to not be outperformed by your starter attack since it didn’t even unlock until level 35.

 

I think they'd still frakenslot for some people.

 

That said, I've always thought the attacks in Power/Epic Pools should be worth while to at least switch out with one's T1/T2 powers.  I'd love to have a character who could use Jump Kick for more than a cool animation, but an actual worthwhile attack for instance.

Edited February 7 by BrandX

[Ston]

100% agree that no power changes should be balanced with procs in mind.

[Crimsanotic]

I would also like more good powers and less bad ones.

[Sovera]

*raises hand*

I'll take more slots instead of being forced to take powers, plz.

[Chris24601]

11 minutes ago, Sovera said:

*raises hand*

I'll take more slots instead of being forced to take powers, plz.

It would be pretty hard to balance, I’d imagine, but given the current state of ancillaries, it does feel like an extra slot or two would actually be more useful than choices of powers you didn’t feel were important enough to take in the first 35 levels, subpar options, and a few that are good enough to actually be worth taking (that under the current paradigm are who knows how many updates away from being made just as subpar because of some formula that itself could stand a reasonable looksee to see if it even makes sense)

 

Honestly? When players like me are taking the leadership pool powers first available at level 4 in their 30-40s instead of ancillaries because they’re actually going to be useful to augment what you already have… When they snag Aid Other instead of ancillaries because even without slotting it’ll help keep the rescuees you’re supposed to keep alive in later missions from dying… When you’re picking up Air Superiority on a Scapper just because it’s got solid control and good recharge instead of an ancillary… When the only objection to making them better is that you could always “proc bomb” it in a way I’m 90% sure the original designers of the invention system never intended…

 

… I’d say that indicates a fundamental design problem with the ancillary powers as a whole.

 

1 hour ago, BrandX said:

That said, I've always though the attacks in Power/Epic Pools should be worth while to at least switch out with one's T1/T2 powers.  I'd love to have a character who could use Jump Kick for more than a cool animation, but an actual worthwhile attack for instance.

And I would agree with that assessment. There’s no reason for what is effectively a T10 power in terms of unlock level to perform worse than the starter powers do.

 

Hell, with sufficient global accuracy and recharge I often find the Blackwand and Nemesis Statf more useful at high level than the Ancillary blasts are… they hit as hard or harder with comparable recharge. The only reason I don’t use them on all my toons is because I want to use something that actually fits my character’s theme and not something that looks like you’re playing WoW with the cosmetics turned off.

 

Put simply; I feel there’s nothing game-breaking or unbalancing about what are effectively T10-14 powers for a character being able to match the capabilities of another AT’s starter (T1-3) powers.

 

A level 35 lightning blaster will have much better powers than their starters to outshine a Level 35 scrapper who gets a full T1 lightning bolt (4s recharge) as an ancillary power… the need to make that scrapper’s bolt underperform even the T1 bolt of the blaster doesn’t make the Blaster feel more powerful… it just makes the Scrapper wonder why they switched alignments to run a villain arc just because their high level concept was supposed to be able to throw down some lightning occasionally if the power pick isn’t even going to match spamming their native T1 on a target).

[Booper]

3 hours ago, Chris24601 said:

Static Discharge going from 12s to 24s and 14.82 to 27.3 End for a measly .91 to .958 damage increase.

That end cost would clearly be a bug. Please report it in the Beta Bug Reports forum.

[Captain Powerhouse]

38 minutes ago, Booper said:

That end cost would clearly be a bug. Please report it in the Beta Bug Reports forum.

 

End cost is 18.98, patch notes are wrong.

[Onlyasandwich]

On 11/22/2023 at 11:44 AM, The Curator said:

Charged Armor (Blaster/Corruptor/Defender) - Recharge increased from 2s to 8s, energy resistance now matches smash/lethal resistances

 

Is there a specific reason for adding recharge to the armor powers? Is this to make it more punishing to be detoggled when you run out of end? As it stands, it wouldn't even detoggle if mezzed due to toggle suspension.

 

I suppose it would also apply when you die and rez mid battle. Is the intention to punish this particular scenario? If so, why? Otherwise I don't understand why we are introducing a pointless, even if relatively meaningless inconvenience.

 

I would pose the same question even for offensive toggles like Oppressive Gloom and Darkest Night. I can see some balancing logic here at least for Darkest Night, as it meaningfully limits how often you can change anchors, and how quickly you can cycle it to a new spawn. However, does Darkest Night deserve this treatment? Is its current 10s recharge time a balance issue for the classes with epic access?

 

On 11/22/2023 at 11:44 AM, The Curator said:

Explosive Blast (Dominator): Recharge increased from 16s to 32s.

This is an example of an already under-picked power in an under-picked pool being made less desirable. You would be very hard pressed to find many dominator builds out there that use Primal Forces Mastery to begin with. Of those that do, Explosive blast isn't exactly a prime pick even then. This is what I was referring to in my earlier post about the formula adjustments not always taking into account the power budget of the pool as a whole, and how effective a given power is even in a vacuum.

 

For thematic reasons, I actually went with this pool on a recent build! It was by no means optimal, but it seemed fun. This is less fun. Could we at least get a damage adjustment so it is more impactful when used? This is a power that does a whopping 47.55 unenhanced damage at 50. This is essentially tied with Psi tornado for lowest damage epic aoe on doms, and Psi tornado is in a superior pool, has a superior damage type, and doesn't require knockdown conversion.

 

I suppose it will be more proccable, so may actually pull ahead when slotted with this focus! I actually love procs, and will benefit from this when adapting my build. However, my feeling (correct me if I'm wrong) is that you are not changing the recharge here to buff it through superior proccability. At least in its current form it offers some type of variety in the form of more heavily cycled mitigation, and better contribution over time to an aoe rotation based on leaner power choices.

 

Edited February 7 by Onlyasandwich

[Vanden]

On 11/22/2023 at 11:44 AM, The Curator said:

• Patron > Leviathan Mastery > Water Spout (Controller/Dominator) - Now accepts Pet and recharge intensive sets, no longer accepts Ranged AoE Sets
• Patron > Leviathan Mastery > Water Spout (Scrapper/Stalker) - Now accepts Pet sets, no longer accepts Ranged AoE Sets

 

So after mulling this over, I think this is a mistake. I think it's fairly evident that Water Spout is meant to serve the role of a ranged AoE attack, albeit one with an extended duration. That it's implemented as a pseudopet in order to achieve its intended effect is just trivia, it shouldn't mean the power is meant to be considered an actual pet power. There are numerous other AoE attacks implemented with pseudopets that still take ranged AoE sets, like Rain of Fire and Blizzard, and even mobile ones like Carrion Creepers and Storm Cell. There's no reason to single out Water Spout like this.

[Carnifax]

51 minutes ago, Vanden said:

 

So after mulling this over, I think this is a mistake. I think it's fairly evident that Water Spout is meant to serve the role of a ranged AoE attack, albeit one with an extended duration. That it's implemented as a pseudopet in order to achieve its intended effect is just trivia, it shouldn't mean the power is meant to be considered an actual pet power. There are numerous other AoE attacks implemented with pseudopets that still take ranged AoE sets, like Rain of Fire and Blizzard, and even mobile ones like Carrion Creepers and Storm Cell. There's no reason to single out Water Spout like this.

I assume it's to bring it inline with Tornado in Storm. 

 

But yes since it seems that changing sets like this loses set bonuses from the old set even if you leave it in (verified earlier in the thread) I'd be dubious about forcing this change on everyone since it forces them to reslot or lose set bonuses in the rejigged powers. 

[Sovera]

6 hours ago, golstat2003 said:

Damage procs? Procs that have been rumored to be about to be rebalanced in an upcoming Page? Yeah I wouldn't bre recommending procs to anyone for a while lol

 

I've been hearing that for the past two years. Yes, it's coming, yes, it will happen. But something that may come in 6 months or a year is not something present us need to avoid slotting.

 

The worry is if these current balances are made because procs make a power good.

 

Man, the colossal tuning of powers when procs are changed makes me pre-emptively commiserate with the devs.

[Ice Ember]

The epic nerf to lengthen recharge is, in my guess, to slow down the farming...

 

 

[Crimsanotic]

38 minutes ago, Ice Ember said:

The epic nerf to lengthen recharge is, in my guess, to slow down the farming...

 

 

 

Imagine making any changes to slow down farming in the year MMXXIV.

[golstat2003]

2 hours ago, Sovera said:

 

I've been hearing that for the past two years. Yes, it's coming, yes, it will happen. But something that may come in 6 months or a year is not something present us need to avoid slotting.

 

The worry is if these current balances are made because procs make a power good.

 

Man, the colossal tuning of powers when procs are changed makes me pre-emptively commiserate with the devs.

 

Right, which was my point. Procs shouldn't even enter the discussion when talking about balance. Balance the power based on what it does and whatever damage formula that's required by COH dev rules, then go from there. Procs should have nothing to do with if a power is good, as we can't assume the player will use procs. Similar to how we cannot assume the player will use IOs.

 

We've been told the main balance point is SOs, unless something has changed . . .

Edited February 7 by golstat2003

[Clam Leader]

Most kf these changes are not 'targetted' or designed to achieve anything specific with in the game. You only need to look at how consistant these changes are to realize that they are designed to get all APPs and PPPs to fit with the presumed formula that should apply to these pools. Which is a decent idea for balance.

 

Its just too nad the formula is awful. It turns otherwise interesting powers into usable twice a mission trash simply throigh the CD increases alone. The holds, dominate, char, etc. I dislike the 24 second cd, but I get it.

 

The real issue is the flashier stuff that only some ATs get, Quicksand on tanks was already bad. Now its worse. Hoarfrost as is coming to defenders? Basically dead on arrival due to a NINE MINUTE base cooldown.

 

Are there some powers in these pools where an increased base cd is reasonable? Yes. But 3x? For all the best utility? Is actually just unforgivable for how it makes the most exciting APPs actually just frustrating to think about what could have been.

[Sovera]

Though I've joined the naysaying in these changes the devs HAVE already stated that this is a two pronged pass. This one is to normalize things, next one, in the future, next page, whatever, will be to tune the numbers up and down.

 

We can argue that they should have done both at the same time and it would be a valid argument that I have no counter to, but lets not belabour endlessly on how bad the ancillary pools . It's been said, the devs are aware of it, and its not adding anything to the conversation by this point.

[ScarySai]

The way epic power recharge/end/radius and such are calculated is such a goddamn mess that the only thing following it here really did was nerf some of the good options we had, like dominator sleet and soul drain for corruptors. It should say a lot when the best sets are probably accidents, are fixed, and then are still the best.

 

But, those powers are still some of the only options for said ATs even still. Epic power tuning will continue to be a complete waste of time until this idiotic formula is either changed, or treated like a guideline instead of law.

 

I'm underwhelmed.

Edited February 7 by ScarySai