Focused Feedback: Various Power Updates

[Coyotedancer]

40 minutes ago, Player-1 said:

Hello everyone, just want to chime in and thank you all again for the feedback! 

 

For the topic at hand, it would be helpful to get some more varied data on the ATO's success and failure rates. We have some anecdotal data in this thread, and a handful of logs, though a gif or video of the behavior would be excellent to compare against.

 

In a controlled environment such as a repeatable mission against the same targets, video of the proc going off and/or I suppose "turning off" over time could be useful in determining how it behaves during game play.

 

We are looking at this internally as well, yet more testing is always appreciated!

 

 

Unfortunately, I don't have FRAPs installed on this PC, so I can't catch video of White Thorn's "live vs beta" runs with that DA mission I mentioned up-thread.  (And, frankly, the files would be too large to reasonably upload even if I did-)

 

How useful would posted logs be?

[KaizenSoze]

12 minutes ago, Coyotedancer said:

 

 

Unfortunately, I don't have FRAPs installed on this PC, so I can't catch video of White Thorn's "live vs beta" runs with that DA mission I mentioned up-thread.  (And, frankly, the files would be too large to reasonably upload even if I did-)

 

How useful would posted logs be?

You can use OBS to record, then upload it to YouTube and provide an unlisted list.

 

Just like I did here.

 

[Coyotedancer]

Just now, KaizenSoze said:

You can use OBS to record, then upload it to YouTube and provide an unlisted list.

 

Just like I did here.

 

 

I'll check it out... Though in general, I don't do the YouTube thing.

[warlyx]

23 minutes ago, Coyotedancer said:

 

 

Unfortunately, I don't have FRAPs installed on this PC, so I can't catch video of White Thorn's "live vs beta" runs with that DA mission I mentioned up-thread.  (And, frankly, the files would be too large to reasonably upload even if I did-)

 

How useful would posted logs be?

not 100% sure but Nvidia can record video , and im sure AMD has the option too

 

windows xbox bar ? windows key + g to open can record videos too ( i have it disabled tho)

Edited January 27 by warlyx

[Coyotedancer]

1 minute ago, warlyx said:

not 100% sure but Nvidia can record video , and im sure AMD has the option too

 

windows xbox bar ? windows key + g to open can record videos too ( i have it disabled tho)

 

As old as this machine and its video card are, I wouldn't bet on that one. I'm running in the stone age over here. 🤣

 

I'll try out OBS this afternoon.

[warlyx]

2 minutes ago, Coyotedancer said:

 

As old as this machine and its video card are, I wouldn't bet on that one. I'm running in the stone age over here. 🤣

 

I'll try out OBS this afternoon.

 

😄 ok let me put my Blizzard entertainment suit and ask u

 

Dont u have phone? lol , well if its gonna be a nokia 3310 well...🤭😛

 

 

Edited January 27 by warlyx

[Player-1]

26 minutes ago, Coyotedancer said:

 

 

Unfortunately, I don't have FRAPs installed on this PC, so I can't catch video of White Thorn's "live vs beta" runs with that DA mission I mentioned up-thread.  (And, frankly, the files would be too large to reasonably upload even if I did-)

 

How useful would posted logs be?

Logs are also useful to parse the proc triggering and/or being interrupted. Video allows for a bit more context is all! I would not worry over an entire run being recorded either, just testing in controlled scenarios that can be repeated can provide digestible results.

[Kaika]

1 hour ago, Coyotedancer said:

 

 

It's just like the New Council vs Masterminds issue... No one considered how a muti-goon-per-spawn, big damage, always auto-hit rez power that happened so frequently in play would have an outsized impact on a pet-dependent AT. Masterminds just aren't common enough to be "on the radar", I suspect. 

 

With the Stalker proc issue... my guess is that what we're seeing is a result of the combination of Stalkers' relative rarity compared to other melees, combined with most of the people playing Stalkers in Closed having followed the "usual practice" of running soft-capped Defense builds... They just would have been a lot less likely to notice that anything had really changed at all.

 

Again, like Masterminds with the Council revamps, the eventual consensus may be that non-Defense Stalkers are an "acceptable casualty"... It's not like they're played by that many people, so the impact on "The Players At Large" won't be huge.  

 

 

 

 

I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt here and say they just like to fix bugs and don't tend to think about how long that bug has existed, if players even know it's a bug and if it would be nerfing players. This isn't the first time something like this has happened. I recall a while back they tried to remove the 100% crit from hide on burst, despite the set historically under preforming (granted not on stalker) and the power itself being very lack luster. To their credit after the backlash they reverted the changes, at least until the set gets revamped, but it shows that they tend to see bugs as something "to be fixed" first and often just don't take into account the impact it will have on players because.... its a bug. Alot of these cases tend to be things many players considered a feature, and would only even know it's a bug if you looked behind the scenes. I don't wanna assume some kind of malice or seeing stalkers and master minds as a "acceptable casualty" because I don't think they think like that, or at least I hope they don't.

 

 

Edited January 27 by Riot Siren

[Coyotedancer]

2 minutes ago, Riot Siren said:

I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt here and say they just like to fix bugs without thinking how long that bug has existed, if players even know it's a bug and if it would be nerfing players. This isn't the first time something like this has happened. I recall a while back they tried to remove the 100% crit from hide on burst, despite the set historically under preforming (granted not on stalker) and the power itself being very lack luster. To their credit after the backlash they reverted the changes, at least until the set gets revamped, but it shows that they tend to see bugs as something "to be fixed" first and often just don't take into account the impact it will have on players because.... its a bug. Alot of these cases tend to be things many players considered a feature, and would only even know it's a bug if you looked behind the scenes. I don't wanna assume some kind of malice or seeing stalkers and master minds as a "acceptable casualty" because I don't think they think like that, or at least I hope they don't.

 

 

 

 

KM's Burst getting the Crit out of Hide was an intentional design choice the old devs made. I was the one who brought that up in the discussion when they were considering removing it, since I'd been in the original closed beta group that tested it, and remembered it being mentioned (and explained-) then.

 

The phrase "consistency to the point of homogeny" does come to mind sometimes when these 'fix passes' happen.... But I don't think they're coming from a bad place as far as intentions are concerned. They just lose the proverbial forest while they're surveying all the trees.

[WindDemon21]

On 1/24/2024 at 4:44 PM, Monos King said:

Hi, it's been a while. I greatly appreciate the work and sentiment behind the Frostwork re-evaluation, that power should be getting some love. However, I desperately despise the change from max HP to absorb. Now in spite of my feelings, it's not all bad, but if a buff was the intention it falls short - especially for Masterminds. I talked to a few others who may have echoed some of these points here a little while ago, but I think it's a good idea to go over the benefits and detriments so that everyone understands my perspective. 

There are bigger issues here with the power, absorb, or max hp. They really need to just make the power pbaoe cause even as absorb, or heal, or max hp, the single target nature with the rech/duration just doesn't cut it, especially on MMs. They need to make it pbaoe, and if absorb have a shorter recharge to reapply it more like a heal (cause that's essentially what absorb is), or keep it as max hp, and add a regen bonus to it as well. Even 100% regen is pretty small but with it being pbaoe and max hp would be pretty worth it with the change to pbaoe.

[WindDemon21]

14 hours ago, Luminara said:

The Cancel on Damage change wasn't about stalkers, or even targeting stalkers.  The Cancel on Damage flag wasn't working at all.  I mean at all at all.  Night Widow critter Blinds weren't being removed when our characters were attacked.  Bane and Succubus critter Placates weren't either.  All of those critters had cart blanche to beat player character asses without reprisal, and it was making some content unplayable for some players/characters and frustrating for others.

 

The flag was broken.  It had to be fixed.

I think, in stalkers specific, there has to be a way to code hide to only get removed when YOU attack, not get attacked. The same thing basically already exists with movement suppression if you think about it. Set it with the "hide" status as a toggle, that suppresses when you attack, but not get attacked. You can get attacked all day and not lose your movement speed, but once you attack you can't use travel powers.

[WindDemon21]

53 minutes ago, Riot Siren said:

I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt here and say they just like to fix bugs and don't tend to think about how long that bug has existed, if players even know it's a bug and if it would be nerfing players. This isn't the first time something like this has happened. I recall a while back they tried to remove the 100% crit from hide on burst, despite the set historically under preforming (granted not on stalker) and the power itself being very lack luster. To their credit after the backlash they reverted the changes, at least until the set gets revamped, but it shows that they tend to see bugs as something "to be fixed" first and often just don't take into account the impact it will have on players because.... its a bug. Alot of these cases tend to be things many players considered a feature, and would only even know it's a bug if you looked behind the scenes. I don't wanna assume some kind of malice or seeing stalkers and master minds as a "acceptable casualty" because I don't think they think like that, or at least I hope they don't.

 

 

Them not thinking like that IMO just kinda sounds like they don't actually play the game, or they would have figured a way to not break something like this or find a workaround before pushing this out even to Beta.

 

Edit: I get the whole "it's a bug let's fix it", but not at the sake of something taking a very noticeable hit by it. (*stares at burn*, other updates to FA helped but not enough without fixing consume to an appropriate recharge/effects/duration etc as well. IE the max hp/regen should both be in temp protection and slottable leaving that not to be factored in to consumes usage as an end gain power that it should be)

Edited January 27 by WindDemon21

[KaizenSoze]

1 hour ago, Player-1 said:

Logs are also useful to parse the proc triggering and/or being interrupted. Video allows for a bit more context is all! I would not worry over an entire run being recorded either, just testing in controlled scenarios that can be repeated can provide digestible results.

I would nice if the Guile proc would produce log message containing it's name. Like damage proc do.

 

Right now you have infer that the proc went off by looking for the power has the proc then looking for this message:

2024-01-27 13:24:43 You enter a hidden state.

A nice to have.

[fiend]

It appears that Bonfire for Fire Control has been affected by the epic changes, but the change is presently unlisted here. Whether it's an unintentional change from altering those, or intentional and just slipped the list, KB->KD is knocking enemies much less to a drastic degree, removing the power's mitigation/control potential.

 

Videos to demonstrate here - used fire cages and bonfire on +4x8 Circle of Thorns with my fire controller:

Live: https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1029958407282761768/1200886475278004334/cityofheroes_GQfY7Z0TuS.webm?ex=65c7cfaf&is=65b55aaf&hm=6e9d57a5b904c11bf6985684f4b724befcb0c569b49ea490ab5046659edb456a&

Beta (BUILD 1 SPECIFICALLY): https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1029958407282761768/1200886474829205685/cityofheroes_ghMctrhD3A.webm?ex=65c7cfae&is=65b55aae&hm=297f3b5922912f21f88690f2264e2b8f1ca8874b7593153962ca6b33bd0d6986&

 

I can still see this being a decent pick for the damage on controllers, but it does make fire control quite a bit riskier across the board, especially for a squishier AT like Dominator - something I could also see being intentional, given it was essentially far outshining other control sets with knockdown (i.e. ice slick).

 

(p.s., the fact that Bonfire relies on an IO to even be considered in most cases (except for as a joke power in the vein of Black Hole or Detention Field) is a separate issue worth highlighting, but well out of scope for this thread)

Edited January 28 by fiend
clarifying build the video is from

[SwitchFade]

5 hours ago, Player-1 said:

Hello everyone, just want to chime in and thank you all again for the feedback! 

 

For the topic at hand, it would be helpful to get some more varied data on the ATO's success and failure rates. We have some anecdotal data in this thread, and a handful of logs, though a gif or video of the behavior would be excellent to compare against.

 

In a controlled environment such as a repeatable mission against the same targets, video of the proc going off and/or I suppose "turning off" over time could be useful in determining how it behaves during game play.

 

We are looking at this internally as well, yet more testing is always appreciated!

Hi. Really, I appreciate the fact you are letting us know you are reading and aware and test data is a great thing to have.

 

That said, I have to be succinct, please be forthcoming about the changes, specifically regarding the affect the hidden cancelled by damage change has on the stalker ATO proc. Before, it was not cancelled, now it is 100% cancelable when damaged is how it reads and is working. Getting logs to verify things is all well and good, but...

 

All the testing in the world isnt going to change the fact that the fundamental way it works, has worked and was known to be intentional has been completely altered.

 

So, tell us that, if that was the INTENT, or if it was not the INTENT then tell us that. Each reply that isn't in the neighborhood of "hi, we're aware, our intent was NOT to cause a change to the ATO, please give us data so we can fix that and keep the change we intended, which was X," or "Hi, we DID intend to change how the ATO works, we need data to see if it falls in design change intent range," is basically a huge PR misstep and causes loss of trust.

 

From someone who has done -and does- crisis management (just the general corporate term for how to handle people's angry angries), get out in front of it now and be forthcoming.

 

Was this intentional or unintentional?

 

Intentional = very, VERY bad idea, one that is divorce inducing. No worries, not mad, thanks for the memories and best of luck 😊

 

Unintentional = no worries, no blame, I'll wait patiently for good lengths of time for a fix and play something else 😁

 

Ps. This perspective on communicating intent is for ATO hide proc, council revamp and bonfire updates.

 

Edited, because my Ps was unclear.

Edited January 27 by SwitchFade

[Chaos Ex Machina]

Something that should be said for sleet

 

The sleet nerf effectively reduces the offensive output of an entire team with a cold using corruptor controller or mastermind by 6%

 

That may sound like a small nerf but that is around the difference between running assault and not running assault, probably even bigger in most circumstances since assault is diluted for any team using buffs to attack

 

This is before defense is counted which nerfs it further

 

Please simply buff defenders instead

 

A similar thing was done to tar patch by the way

 

I main dark which feels more sluggish since the change and dark is now among the very few builds that is less effective compared with the paragon studios era...not counting rising tide stuff like easier incarnate builds

[TauntingMonk]

Did you all look at Gremlins on Controllers yet? Not sure why I'm not getting a response.

[BrandX]

Tried out Thunderstrike!

Will be nice to make it better ST DPS (I always love using it on Elec Melee users).  I will miss that slow effect tho.  It gave a certain crunch to it.  Not sure why the epic version needs to be so much endurance tho.  It's recharge is way up there already.

[Mezmera]

14 hours ago, Vince said:

Completely agree. The new mechanic looks cool but not worth respeccing into (especially since so many people use fold space now anyways).  The immob is okay I guess, but some really like perma holding targets very quickly with old TK in niche situations (especially on doms).  Regardless, I do appreciate it at least being looked at for a revamp but this new version will still be a skip for me.

 

The new patch has some interesting things with TK now.  Give it a try.  

 

I like this combo of Levitate/TK in comparison to having Mesmerize/Terrify, I think that combo brings some extra stuff to the table.  Nice aggro clumping and a quick soft control while your team spikes them.  The splash damage seems to be a set amount which I would like to see a little higher since you can't enhance it, other than that yeah I'd take this over Terrify.  

 

Also monitor your controls in Domination.  I'm having trouble one shot holding targets some with missing (domination) flags over their heads and I even got knockbacked.  I let them know it was happening to me.

Edited January 28 by Mezmera

[Sovera]

8 hours ago, BrandX said:

Tried out Thunderstrike!

Will be nice to make it better ST DPS (I always love using it on Elec Melee users).  I will miss that slow effect tho.  It gave a certain crunch to it.  Not sure why the epic version needs to be so much endurance tho.  It's recharge is way up there already.

 

Elec Melee almost NEEDS Thunderstrike for its ST rotation because it has a lack of ST attacks which is why Elec Melee is so weak. There are no ST attacks other than the T1 and T2 and AoEs are tuned to be weaker than ST precisely because they hit more than one enemy.

 

Jacob's Ladder is a cone, Thunderstrike is half a PbAoE, Chain Lightning is a chain but at least it animates fast and subs for an ST despite having the same weak damage due to being AoE.

 

 

Sad thing is that the AoE isn't even great 😄 Though Thunderstrike's changes will surely help.

[SuperPlyx]

17 hours ago, fiend said:

It appears that Bonfire for Fire Control has been affected by the epic changes, but the change is presently unlisted here. Whether it's an unintentional change from altering those, or intentional and just slipped the list, KB->KD is knocking enemies much less to a drastic degree, removing the power's mitigation/control potential.

 

Videos to demonstrate here - used fire cages and bonfire on +4x8 Circle of Thorns with my fire controller:

Live: https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1029958407282761768/1200886475278004334/cityofheroes_GQfY7Z0TuS.webm?ex=65c7cfaf&is=65b55aaf&hm=6e9d57a5b904c11bf6985684f4b724befcb0c569b49ea490ab5046659edb456a&

Beta: https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1029958407282761768/1200886474829205685/cityofheroes_ghMctrhD3A.webm?ex=65c7cfae&is=65b55aae&hm=297f3b5922912f21f88690f2264e2b8f1ca8874b7593153962ca6b33bd0d6986

 

This is horrible...this needs to get get fixed before live

[Dispari]

20 hours ago, Player-1 said:

Logs are also useful to parse the proc triggering and/or being interrupted. Video allows for a bit more context is all! I would not worry over an entire run being recorded either, just testing in controlled scenarios that can be repeated can provide digestible results.

If I'm understanding correctly, the ATO simply has a proc that puts you in Hide status so that you can get an extra crit in.
The ATO has always had the "cancel on damage" flag, but it was broken until recently.
The net result is the ATO proccing gave you a 10 second window of hidden that cannot be broken, so you can get your free crit (the point of the proc).
A consequence of fixing the "cancel on damage" flag means this ATO is now significantly worse, and the proc can go off and leave you with nothing if you are unhidden early.
Basically the "cancel on damage" flag should be removed from the ATO to restore functionality.

[Sovera]

51 minutes ago, SuperPlyx said:

 

This is horrible...this needs to get get fixed before live

 

That's from the previous build. We're on build 2 now and tweaks have been made.

[Coyotedancer]

1 hour ago, Dispari said:

If I'm understanding correctly, the ATO simply has a proc that puts you in Hide status so that you can get an extra crit in.
The ATO has always had the "cancel on damage" flag, but it was broken until recently.
The net result is the ATO proccing gave you a 10 second window of hidden that cannot be broken, so you can get your free crit (the point of the proc).
A consequence of fixing the "cancel on damage" flag means this ATO is now significantly worse, and the proc can go off and leave you with nothing if you are unhidden early.
Basically the "cancel on damage" flag should be removed from the ATO to restore functionality.

 

Yep. That's my understanding as well...

 

I ran six of my assorted-secondary, various-levels-of-defense Stalkers through the same +4x1 DA mission on live and on beta v1 yesterday, collected their Combat logs and tossed them over to Player-1. Hopefully that can help sort things out. 

[BrandX]

4 hours ago, Sovera said:

 

Elec Melee almost NEEDS Thunderstrike for its ST rotation because it has a lack of ST attacks which is why Elec Melee is so weak. There are no ST attacks other than the T1 and T2 and AoEs are tuned to be weaker than ST precisely because they hit more than one enemy.

 

Jacob's Ladder is a cone, Thunderstrike is half a PbAoE, Chain Lightning is a chain but at least it animates fast and subs for an ST despite having the same weak damage due to being AoE.

 

 

Sad thing is that the AoE isn't even great 😄 Though Thunderstrike's changes will surely help.

 

Oh, don't get me wrong, I thought Thunderstrike needed this.  The attack always felt like it was a ST attack with a little extra splash damage as flavor.  Not a real PBAOE attack.

I think the same for Chain Lightning.  The added AOE felt more like flavor than anything.