Focused Feedback: Role Diversity Bonus

[Paradox Fate]

I agree with Peregrine here, clearing faster is a reward in itself.

 

If there are additional rewards to existing ones based on a role, people will go out of their way to restrict invites and exclude players based on what they play in even a casual setting.

 

Because people will optimize the fun out of the game if given the chance. And this is another baby step along possible many.

Edited January 22 by Paradox Fate

[StarseedWarrior]

2 hours ago, Doc_Scorpion said:

I agree and disagree with this part. (I heartily agree with the remainder.)  While 2XP (and the imbalance between XP and Inf in DFB, even without 2XP) contribute to the problem - they do not in and of themselves cause the problem.  I've cold started a number of toons (without using either 2XP or DFB), and it's still very difficult to afford a SO build with nothing but normal gameplay.  (By which I mean running the missions the game steers you toward, not using hacks that will not be obvious to the new player, such as earning the Atlas Tour Guide accolade.)  Even affording a DO/TO build can be difficult.

As I said, I agree with the goal (making enhancements easier to afford), I only disagree with assumption (that the problem is lack of cash rather than high prices) and the solution (driving characters towards a given playstyle).

I also want to add that this gives reasons for higher level players to play more to spread influence to newer players and they do the same its a cycle to keep the game active and friendly and I think thats kind of the point, I think the issue is there isnt enough in game text to tell you dont buy single origins yet get duos instead, sell salvage to make money, you can bring up the ah with /ah and etc.

[Doc_Scorpion]

1 hour ago, Cobalt Arachne said:

What I'm reading is more that many players take issue with there being any kind of bias towards a defined team structure at all, not the requirements or rewards.

Pondering on that point of view...  To me, the problem isn't necessarily the existence of bias.  It's that the high value of the reward for being biased will almost inevitably distort gameplay.

What happens if we reduce that pressure by dramatically scaling back the rewards to something akin to a guaranteed rare salvage or recipe drop?

[Indystruck]

It's a task force Michael, what could it reward, one aether?

 

don't you change this, Cobalt, or I am gonna go out of my way to give Zoe noogies until the servers go down

Edited January 22 by Indystruck

[arcane]

2 minutes ago, Doc_Scorpion said:

Pondering on that point of view...  To me, the problem isn't necessarily the existence of bias.  It's that the high value of the reward for being biased will almost inevitably distort gameplay.

One prismatic aether is not a high value reward…

[Starforge]

1 minute ago, arcane said:

One prismatic aether is not a high value reward…

Not at their current prices anyway lol.

[Koopak]

Wild suggestion.

Instead of us all speculating how this will ruin the game, or enrich it. Lets let it ride? Its not hard to change or remove and Cobalt has been extremely supportive and considerate of what id call some VERY bad takes that are completely at odds with any knowledge on game design or player behavior.

If it works out and is good? YAY

If its bad and need a reworked? I'm sure Cobalt will do so

If its inexcusably terrible and leads to significant player issues? It'll be removed and im sure the reward can be weaved in in another way. Seriously 1 aether is nothing guys, a 1 star TF on min difficulty will get you several times that for less effort.

Edited January 22 by Koopak

[Koopak]

1 minute ago, Blackbird71 said:

 

Once a feature like this is implemented, it becomes much harder to remove.  It might get changed, sure, but it's awfully difficult to take something away from players once given without an uproar.  If there's any valid doubt at all that this will have a net positive impact, it's best to send it back to the drawing board for the time being.

Its not though, its literally as simple as 'remove the requirement for the reward logic' lol Worst case we all get free aether for nothing.

[Marbing]

Let’s count the yays and nays and go with majority here. 

[WitchofDread]

3 hours ago, Cobalt Arachne said:

What I'm reading is more that many players take issue with there being any kind of bias towards a defined team structure at all, not the requirements or rewards.

 

RETRACTED.

Edited January 22 by WitchofDread

[arcane]

Just now, WitchofDread said:

 

Implying or forcing rewards based on team composition is inherently terrible. This is a game that promotes diversity so trying to force anything else is just going to have a severely negative effect. 

 

I can't say in all the years I played coh on live or home coming I have ever been on a specifically tailored team that has X amount of certain ATs to fit a certain a task. 

 

If I want to run tfs or try hardmode content with a group of friends and we all want to run corruptors for example why should we be penalised for doing so, which in all honesty, this diversity bonus is doing. 

 

Ironically though, even though this is a feedback forum post, I doubt the HC team will listen.

You are not being “penalized” by *choosing* to forego one single extra Aether particle per day. Don’t be ridiculous.

[Gorgar]

I don't see a problem with it.  It's not a huge bonus, and I don't think it's going to affect behavior all that much.  I can't see alting for one PA from a task force if I'd prefer to play something else.  If I don't mind, and someone else wants the extra PA, then sure.

[Starforge]

4 minutes ago, WitchofDread said:

 

Implying or forcing rewards based on team composition is inherently terrible. This is a game that promotes diversity so trying to force anything else is just going to have a severely negative effect. 

 

I can't say in all the years I played coh on live or home coming I have ever been on a specifically tailored team that has X amount of certain ATs to fit a certain a task. 

 

If I want to run tfs or try hardmode content with a group of friends and we all want to run corruptors for example why should we be penalised for doing so, which in all honesty, this diversity bonus is doing. 

 

Ironically though, even though this is a feedback forum post, I doubt the HC team will listen.

Yeah, you aren’t being penalized anything. You can absolutely continue to play that way with no changes or diminished rewards. 
 

The diversity bonus is just that, an extra option bonus if folks actually try to diversify their team composition a bit.

[WitchofDread]

Fair points. I retract my statement.

 

In my opinion, it just seems like a meaningless addition. Potentially getting 1 extra PA oooo.

 

[ranagrande]

3 hours ago, Cobalt Arachne said:

If the consensus here is that this change will be a negative for the game, we can simply remove the free bonus and drop this feature.

The sense I'm getting from reading feedback is that many feel like any attempts to influence the nature of team assembly is antithetical to the nature of City of Heroes.
 

Honestly, this is what I would vote for.

[Andreah]

8 hours ago, Cobalt Arachne said:

So let me explain the reasoning behind this free bonus:

~~snip/snip~~ for brevity

My concern is that role has rarely been clearly delineated merely from AT, and no AT only based system can capture CoH's real diversity of roles.

 

The classic roles aren't the only roles, and that deep complexity of how we have learned to build characters to perform roles in surprising and wonderful ways in CoH is short-changed, badly, by this system

 

Worst, the system as described is going to incentivize people to limit their team make-ups and can only cause people to be refused into teams merely for this artificial reward bonus -- AND this is something we have been telling new players this game does not do!  And for new players, the value of a aether is not some small bonus add-on -- it's a big reward. They're going to be excluded from teams because the team needs someone else to fill this artificial requirement. The harm to the community outweighs any individual benefits from bonus rewards.

 

If the real problem is not enough Aethers being out there, then just give everyone a bonus Aether at level up from level 2 to 49.

 

It is my opinion this change violates the spirit of the game, and should be dropped in entirety.

Edited January 22 by Andreah

[Koopak]

I mean at this point given Cobalt's comments the options are 'bonus aether once a day' or 'no bonus aether' I really don't get the hate here.

This is not going to drastically or even noticeably change player behavior past the first week or two imo. Its just free shit with a subtle push for people to maybe play their controller when they been seeing a lot of scrappers lately.

If this gets cut its not a big loss to anyone who actually plays the game regularly, so I don't care really, but the hate is just... weird

As for the new player education argument that this will hurt new players, I gotta ask. How?

The roles defined are straightforward, and I strongly feel the community greatly overestimates the complexity of this game. There are CLEARLY 5 roles as stipulated, and frankly if anything id roll ranged and melee damage into one. There aren't any other actions to do. You tank, do damage, crowd control, or provide buffs/debuffs. Sure many powersets do a bit of each but a given AT ALWAYS focuses on one with the sole exception of the EATs

Epic ATs are explicitly meant for veteran players to get creative with, the fact they are available to a brand new account doesn't change how the AT was designed and bending over backwards to entertain the idea that 'you can do anything with any AT' is just being stubborn. There is a role, a job, for each AT, the fact you can can do a crappy job of other roles on it too doesn't change that.

The only proof you need regarding these roles making sense is to put it in context. You are forming a TF and you know you aren't built enough to just solo it. Ask yourself, who do you want on your team? If you are putting any thought into that question and not just auto piloting on the last several years of 'i have 10 maxed out builds' or 'i only play +0x8' you are going to give the same answers. A Tanker, or Brute to hold aggro for your DPS, a Controller or Dominator to handle any spillover and lock down threats, and a Defender to buff everyone's defenses or make the mobs squishy with debuffs, then some pew pew in form of Blaster, Scrapper, Stalker, Sentinel, so on.

CoX isnt a 'roleless game' it has roles, we used them back before players power crept so hard they can ignore 1/2 the game and go afk without dying.

The fact that THIS, a free 3 million influence once a day, is controversial just floors me. Anyone who actually bothers to play the game long enough for money to mean anything, aka, reach level 50, thats peanuts. And before anyone accuses me of not being in touch with what a new player experiences, I solo one of my characters from 1 to 50 with no outside resources (including no P2W or other 'insider' knowledge) at least once every 6 months just to make sure I do know what its like.

Edited January 22 by Koopak

[gameboy1234]

20 minutes ago, Andreah said:

Worst, the system as described is going to incentivize people to limit their team make-ups and can only cause people to be refused into teams

 

Yeah, I think this would be my biggest concern.  It's an artificial distortion of the community and the game mechanics, and seems like it might do at least some harm.  We were all new at some point and we learned how to play.  No reason others can't learn too.  (And by "learn" I mean at least a few team wipes and the occasional disbandment of a TF.  It happens.)

 

I don't know that this will definitely harm the game, but I'm a little nervous.

 

The motivation is good -- teach people how to play and make some nice extras for players.  Not sure about the implementation though.  OTOH letting it ride and go to live isn't unreasonable as long as it isn't considered a done deal and might be open to tweaking or removal later if needs be.

 

(I'll add somewhat humorously that any "learn to team" system that doesn't let people put eight defenders on a team and tell them to go for it isn't actually teaching people to play CoH.)

 

Edited January 22 by gameboy1234

[Indystruck]

It's not a real concern. Anytime I form a team, there's always that one guy with 3000 other characters falling over themselves to even out the team composition anyway.

[CloudMouse]

2 minutes ago, Indystruck said:

It's not a real concern. Anytime I form a team, there's always that one guy with 3000 other characters falling over themselves to even out the team composition anyway.

YW 😂

[kelika2]

This makes me slightly fearful because I just like inviting the first 7 people that send a tell.  or just joining someone else without an AT resume

oh but kelika2 its just a small reward lmao

people still freak out in dfb when a cadaver dies.

some folks still think the death ticker and timer in TFs mean something

 

this little carrot on a stick really is striking fear into me of backseat gamers getting mad over a prismatic and i dont see what new people will gain from this

dont be the wrong AT at the time of recruitment?

be what the rest of the team wants you to be for loot?

go away sorry, others want loot

 

there are few group leaders as it is and putting this added level of pressure on them for a prismatic sounds worse than the holy trinity

 

even looking at the requirements makes me grind my teeth since both of my khelds dont even have dwarf form anymore

it takes careful planning to have a fully ranged dominator

you have to go out of your way as a controller to not be classified as a support character

the base damage on khelds non-squid attacks are so low

what is my Wolf Spider build with a Bane power(buildup) classified as?

 

So unless ATs spread out more to cover more notches this sounds like a bad idea and it just gets confusing with build specific stuff like all epic ATs

Like, everyone LOVED the Tanker melee damage dmg/range increase patch

Scrappers still have taunt and some taunt auras.  oh and khelds dont have a taunt aura still

Most people select Corrs because of their secondaries.  While Ice Shields and chill doesnt sound very support-like people love that fire n forget crap

argh beast. ninja and necro masterminds

 

maybe instead of using Archetype symbols you can change that up to the character creation symbols of Melee, Ranged, Support and maybe Tank

[Koopak]

13 minutes ago, Blackbird71 said:

 

You conveniently ignored the rest of my comment.  I'm not saying it's mechanically difficult to remove it, rather that it is difficult to claw back a feature once given to the players because they will scream bloody murder when anything is removed.

I'm sorry i'm clearly not understanding your point.

Are you trying to argue that if the diversity bonus goes live as is, and then is reworked to simply be a 1 aether reward for your first TF of the day regardless of team composition the community will 'scream bloody murder'?

[lemming]

39 minutes ago, kelika2 said:

people still freak out in dfb when a cadaver dies.

Usually means someone is not paying attention to any sort of instructions.  It's a single badge, but when you usually have to run the DFB twice because someone couldn't read...

 

Anyway, Andreah has the best argument against this feature IMO.

 

I don't think it's as bad, but I could see the perception.   It's a single PA, once per day.   I'd probably look at team leads that insist on getting this bonus a little side-eyed.  I see it more as a infrequent bonus that would probably happen if one does more than one task that qualifies.

[kelika2]

2 minutes ago, lemming said:

Usually means someone is not paying attention to any sort of instructions.  It's a single badge, but when you usually have to run the DFB twice because someone couldn't read...

My point was anytime there is a carrot on a stick, no matter the quality of the carrot, someone will go above and beyond to get it and go just as beyond if they dont get it.

I also do not know if this Class Checker thing still works if someone leaves/quits mid-TF

[kelika2]

Compromise post:  One person cannot fill more than one role at a time.

 

Melee - St

Ranged

Support

 

actually i got bored typing this out as it hurts mastermind mondays.  either by denying them a prism or taking along a token melee guy