Is relying on procs good game design?

[Carnifax]

3 hours ago, Onlyasandwich said:

It's hard for me to speak objectively here because I really love the trade-off that procs present, and the interesting optimizations you can do with some truly surprising builds.

 

This is where I am with procs too. They're an interesting addition to builds and have a trade-off (alongside set slotting and frankenslotting / using HOs). So I'd be very cautious about changes to the proc system which would disrupt that and push people towards "the one way" to slot. 

 

I tend towards cheap-ish builds initially, focused on whatever I want. I may then, when I hit 50, decide I really like the build and throw in a purple / Winters set or two but that's pretty rare for me. I've two Tanks, a Stalker, a Corruptor and a Controller where I went that route but most 50s are sets, procs + a purple or two. 

Edited February 16 by Carnifax

[Snarky]

37 minutes ago, GM Crumpet said:

I've never spent more than about 700 million on a level 50 build. I do buy standard ATO's and use catalysts on them to turn them purple  though. Anything that costs over 20 million is best purchased with merits. Hami O's and D-Synchs are best left for those people with more inf than they can ever spend.

 

I'm kind of useless with builds. If I'm building for myself I'll just shove the entire set into the power rather than frankenslot for every possible advantage. Procs I tend to use are the recharge ones (luck of the gambler).  healing ones in health and end mod ones in stamina. Other than that, if I have a power I don't use with an empty slot I'll shove the appropriate proc in there as I have the inf and it won't hurt.

 

Some of them are really helpful like blessing of the zephyr 4 points of knockback resistance. It's not always about the raw damage. 

I am not the best builder. But i do build a lot. I love set bonuses, and the magic of figuring out how a build is optimized.  I will frankenslot.  But it truly only optimal on certain powers when going for very specific goals there is no other way to get. In my opinion. A last resort to sweet talk the numbers to get to the goal. 

[Sovera]

11 hours ago, Runetide said:

I've been noticing a consistent discussion being made that the only way you're able to, uh, successfully deal damage in the late game is by utilizing procs. These rely on specific IO enhancement sets which sell for millions if you aren't the fortunate sort to get a drop. Even so, I've seen players talking about spending BILLIONS of Inf so they can get their build completed.

 

I just... question this from a fundamental point of view. If there's only one 'real' way to reach end game performance, then it doesn't really feel all that fun to do. I'll make like dozens of characters and level them, but the whole proc set farming/buying/etc. stuff just doesn't feel like it should be the way end game progression should be.

 

I'm sure this has been discussed before and I'll likely get roasted by someone for my opinion on this but I do not like the reliance on procs to be how you 'win' the endgame.

 

Any discussion points I'm missing?

 

Reiterating, no one spends billions, plural on a build. There is a hard limit on how many things can be slotted and procs, despite what you might have been led to believe, are not particularly extra extra expensive.

 

Spending between half to three quarter of a billion is the average for a min maxed top end build. But, remember it can be transferred to another character. 5 minutes and a 2 million respec recipe are worthy trade-offs for 800 million worth of gear being passed around.

 

As for how much procs increase damage it's not a 100% damage boost. Super procced builds can have a 20-30% damage boost and whomever did it traded recharged, defense etc. Most of the time they are specialized builds to either farm (face only one time of harmless enemy) or hitting a pylon for bragging rights (which defeats the point IMO as testing against a pylon should be to test the build, not build around it).

 

I usually sneak one proc into all attacks and when possible two. There are some rare instances where I'll do three or rare, but so rare that they can be counted on the fingers of one hand (Sentinel nukes since slotting that way is a much needed 30% damage boost the AT needs since it only needs recharge and damage./Energy Transfer from Energy Melee since it only needs damage and accuracy).

 

 

As much as I don't like nerfs I do want the devs to nerf procs. They have skewed the results of balance too much. Even now we have heated arguments about ATs that conveniently ignore how results are only there thanks to specialized proc builds which the average player is not indulging in since they would rather have their robust build.

 

Hopefully it will be something simple such as procs activating an ICD for the power that used it allowing to maintain the intended use of having one or two as small damage boosts, but lets see.

[tidge]

To answer the thread's title: YES, procs are good for game design. Reasoning follows:

 

The game's objective rewards are based on defeats and mission completions. The amount of rewards increases with the number of defeats. Procs of the %damage variety allow low-DPS characters, especially those without AoE "nukes" to turn up the spawn size, increasing the number of potential defeats, and complete missions within an order-of magnitude time with ATs that have AoE damaging attacks from their primary/secondary.

 

If %procs were not available for low-DPS characters, the in-game rewards would be skewed to certain ATs. %procs help smooth out the difference in rewards for different styles of play as well as for different choices of AT.

 

 

[JasperStone]

YES and NO. 

But does it matter?

 

I once proposed in another thread that Procs only achieved their fullest effect when slotted with a full set.

I retract that statement. Kinda. 🙂 

 

I chase set bonuses; just because I play that way doesn't mean everybody else should.

I will often pass on a Proc in a power when I have limited slots because I prefer accuracy, recharge, etc.

It doesn't mean other people should be forced to do that.

 

I do laugh when I see builds crammed full of them...

Imagine if there was a downside of some sort in the game for that kinda build.

Where your character just collapses and is teleported to the hospital.

It is out of commission for 24 hours.

That is said in jest.

 

Part of the game is that people can build a character how they want and still have fun.

[Luminara]

Good game design?  Absolutely not, but since Co* wasn't built around procs, we're good.

 

Good build design?  Also no.  Procs are useful additions to powers, but building entirely around them is building a house of cards.  Proc-intensive builds (six-slotting multiple powers with procs) sacrifice slotted Recharge Reduction, Endurance Reduction and Accuracy in exchange for more procs, so attack cycle times are always longer than they would be if slotted with sets/frankenslotted, use more endurance and are more likely to miss.  Cycling additional powers into the attack chain to compensate reduces DPS by adding animation time without damage output, increases endurance usage further, and adds failure points where the player may miss the timing on activating the powers required to keep everything rolling.  Relying on more procs to compensate just increases the potential for failure, as no proc is guaranteed to trigger, and spends more slots that the build may not be able to spare without compromising other aspects.  And the builds are dependent on Incarnate abilities for viability, which restricts them to a very narrow range of content.

 

They're high maintenance, low return for the investment.  Good build design creates a basic framework of strength and survivability, then adds procs as bonuses.

[Sovera]

Despite Luminara's naysaying lets keep in mind we have had tests done for several ATs and proc bombing has invariably been a damage increase from pylon tests to Trapdoors. It's not just silly people throwing procs without knowing what they are doing. It's popular because it's been tested and it works.

 

 

It's not a build philosophy I approve (it skews intended balance) or use (since I like bonuses more) but I won't deny it does bring results.

[speczero]

I very often use proc builds, why not? The only problem I have with procs is in the OP's actual statement, they are not game design as they are. Procs heavily favor AT's that have a low damage modifier. So something like Tankers, Defenders and others with low damage modifiers get much more benefit than say Scrappers. What this means is if you are going to allow the procs like they are used in the game today, then the damage modifiers of all the AT's that get disproportionate advantage from them should be modified. But when you do this, then the people using those AT's that don't use procs will suffer greatly. I don't really have an answer for how to fix it, and to be honest it doesn't really affect me in actually gameplay that I care too much either way, fix it or leave it, I'm good with both.

[skoryy]

Procs are arguably good game design in as much they're a fix for more debatable game design decisions like IOs and incarnates pushing tanks and DPS ahead of support and control.  Procs make my elec/time controller into an even more fun little bun of chaos, as well as my upcoming time/DP defender. Neither would be as much fun without them.

[Maelwys]

It's not good game design, but it can be good build design.

Most good builds get better when you slot procs into them.
As others have pointed out, it's always a balancing act because any slots taken up by procs won't be granting you better raw +enhancement numbers or (usually) set bonuses... but in most high-end builds there is a bit of leeway there. Often you can get "all you need" from an attack power with just 3-4 slots - so why not use the others for procs?

The annoying thing for me is the interaction of procs with recharge enhancement % in the power itself (e.g. in order to get the most out of a damage proc, you want to raise its liklihood of activating... which you do by lowering the recharge% enhancement slotting for that attack to the bare minimum needed to keep an unbroken attack chain going). To my mind this is messy and counterintuitive and I'd very much rather that all +recharge % was ignored for PPM calculations, not just global +recharge %.

Thankfully CoH was never balanced around IOs, let along procs.
Even "Hard mode" quests can be handled by a bunch of toons using only SOs (as long as the characters are reasonably well built and buffs are liberally employed)
Incarnate trials are similar - although having higher-tier incarnate abilities is *almost* required in some of them due to how helpful the level bump is.

All that said, I do have a VEAT Crab Soldier called "Proc Lobster".

 

Edited February 16 by Maelwys

[Haijinx]

The problem is that if you don't allow for significant build decisions you can remove a sense of achievement for the player.  

 

But you always run the risk of gating performance behind money/time/guild etc.

 

Every game balances their teeter totter differently.  

 

Homecoming definitely comes down on the casual friendly side compared to old school time murdering sink MMOs.   

[Oubliette_Red]

Nah, I rely on the tools that the game provides courtesy of drops, conversions or the market.

 

[vibal]

Procs have the ability to push some sets into playability that they couldn't achieve w/o them. They are also pretty economical with purples and winter's (winter's also lacking damage which is the procs most people lean on) being at the top end in the 20-25 million range. Also obtainable with merits for those who refuse to market. Most of them sit in the 2-4 million range. That is a negligible cost for someone looking to finish a build on a level 50. 

 

Proc slotting jolting chain moved electric control from an unplayable tickle stick to the most fun character in my stable. I guess you could argue that the set is undertuned if the solution is outside of the powers themselves.... or you could argue that the game system allows for fixing what feels like a gap in the powerset. The controls are great, the powers are flashy, the utility is mostly on point, the damage is literally non-existent. Plug one little gap and now I'm cooking w/gas.

 

Procs also add something combat is sorely lacking w/o them (outside scrappers): variance. If brawl does 40 (-resist) damage. It *always* does 40 (-resist) damage. It can make combat feel static and rote. Firing off and seeing procs delete some health, or really needing them to fire and getting stung adds a layer that the static combat lacks.

 

I love them and if people are corner shooting builds to maximize them... who cares? 

 

 

[Gerswin]

Having options and nuance in character builds is bad design.  If there is not a definitive best build and that build is not spelled out in-game for every player, then some players will use their unfair advantages to make toons that are unfairly powerful. Meanwhile, average players that don't feel like doing math, asking for help, reading forums, using reason,  or researching a PhD thesis on power damage get pushed to the margins.  They call us 'noobs' and 'mouth breathers' and 'rock chewingly stupid' and it hurts.

 

TLDR:

nerf procs

 

I

[StarseedWarrior]

18 hours ago, Runetide said:

I've been noticing a consistent discussion being made that the only way you're able to, uh, successfully deal damage in the late game is by utilizing procs. These rely on specific IO enhancement sets which sell for millions if you aren't the fortunate sort to get a drop. Even so, I've seen players talking about spending BILLIONS of Inf so they can get their build completed.

 

I just... question this from a fundamental point of view. If there's only one 'real' way to reach end game performance, then it doesn't really feel all that fun to do. I'll make like dozens of characters and level them, but the whole proc set farming/buying/etc. stuff just doesn't feel like it should be the way end game progression should be.

 

I'm sure this has been discussed before and I'll likely get roasted by someone for my opinion on this but I do not like the reliance on procs to be how you 'win' the endgame.

 

Any discussion points I'm missing?

If your getting info from the discord I do not recommend it many times I have seen misleading info on builds and etc not to mention gate keeping.

[Runetide]

I really appreciate the discussion going on here. It's really helped me learn more about how these things are being viewed and even with disagreements everyone's been civil about it and that's fantastic.

 

I only have a single level 50 since starting homecoming, and that one is a farm-designed character. However, I never got past doing a few of the IO sets because as Gerswin above said, I don't have a PHD in power damage and figuring out the whole proc thing feels really obtuse and difficult to get into as someone who didn't get into the incarnate or other endgame systems when CoX was live. The Cost of Entry is kinda high...

 

Heck, I went looking after I posted this and saw a comment about getting archetype origin enhancements and was surprised they existed! I don't even know where one can get merits at a decent enough clip that I could get a full set of them for my farmer in under a week (or more) of gameplay.

 

I love CoX. Honestly I think it's one of the best MMO's ever, and definitely the BEST superhero game I've ever played. I appreciate being able to talk with you all about it.  Please keep on going if you have anything more to add, or to answer what I've said here. 🙂

[Luminara]

5 hours ago, Sovera said:

Despite Luminara's naysaying lets keep in mind we have had tests done for several ATs and proc bombing has invariably been a damage increase from pylon tests to Trapdoors.

 

6 hours ago, Luminara said:

restricts them to a very narrow range of content.

 

Nay.

 

NAY.

 

NAAAAAAAAAAAAAY!

 

Nay.  😛

[Maelwys]

36 minutes ago, Luminara said:

NAAAAAAAAAAAAAY!

[Luminara]

15 minutes ago, Maelwys said:

 

That's a neighsayer, not a naysayer.

[ZemX]

37 minutes ago, Luminara said:

neighsayer

 

brb, checking name server...

[Runetide]

27 minutes ago, ZemX said:

 

brb, checking name server...

If you weren't going to do it I was! 😄

[Luminara]

31 minutes ago, ZemX said:

 

brb, checking name server...

 

If you make it look like me, I'm gonna smack you.

[tidge]

3 hours ago, Runetide said:

Heck, I went looking after I posted this and saw a comment about getting archetype origin enhancements and was surprised they existed! I don't even know where one can get merits at a decent enough clip that I could get a full set of them for my farmer in under a week (or more) of gameplay.

 

The repeatable sources:

 

A full set of 12 ATO purchased directly with merits would be 1200. Each day you could do two runs of a Hamidon raid, choose merits and end with 120.

 

If you don't feel like joining a Hami-raid, Pick-Up-Groups are good, especially the weekly SF/TF that offer bonus merits. The signature Story arcs offer 20 merits each the first time you do them, and you can repeat them weekly for another 20 merits.

 

Alignment missions can be treated very much like AE farming, and after 10 of the same choice, you get a morality mission worth 40 merits.

 

You can convert Vanguard merits to merits if you accumulate a lot of them from Mothership raids.

 

You can also find Ouroboros missions that can be mastered to yield merits for completion.

[JasperStone]

2 hours ago, Luminara said:

 

 

Nay.

 

NAY.

 

NAAAAAAAAAAAAAY!

 

Nay.  😛

[BurtHutt]

Uh...some could argue that making an all proc build, or relying on procs, is a bad idea. Procs fire a limited amount of times per minute so there's some inconsistency in damage. Procs are used at the expense of set bonuses; depending on your playstyle, this can be a big deal.

 

I also team all the time so damage isn't usually an issue. I have a few powers in the odd build that have proc'ed powers but it's not worth it most of the time IMO.