Why do we have bad PUG experiences?

[NotsoevilDM]

8 hours ago, Ironblade said:

... returning players that haven't touch the game since around 2010 and just found out that it's back...

That's pretty much me. Played a lot back in the day, but only recently got back into the game. Basically having to learn everything again. Loving it, but does mean I am a bit all over the place when teaming - anywhere from solid DPS to where's that TF?, oops didn't mean to aggro that mob, got lost on the way / in the map, etc. etc. 

[Major_Decoy]

Until I can slot taunt in my blaster's AoE attacks instead of damage sets, there will never be an ideal pick-up group experience.

[Marshal_General]

First of all, I don't go into a TF or mission trying to finish it before I started. If it takes longer or has a few deaths, I just keep trucking as long as the rest of the team does. I have been in a few Positions that for one reason or another, we hit a wall and bounced several times, but we kept going and finished.

 

I know this goes against modern societal thought, but not everything is a tragedy.

[jopred]

18 hours ago, Sunsette said:

Most of the time I'm on a group that goes bad vs one that doesn't, I mostly notice that the groups which go bad don't have like two+ veteran, overbuilt characters who can sufficiently compensate for the worst possible things anyone else does.

 

The game is very easy if you know what you're doing, but the freedom granted by build and play also allows you to screw yourself and others over phenomenally. An overbuilt party can compensate for these to an extent, but most veteran players don't overbuild.

I just found out lqst night that i was suppose to stack sets argggghhhhhhh!!

[Uun]

#1: People who refuse to read team chat (or who read it and ignore it)

[Ukase]

1 hour ago, Marshal_General said:

I know this goes against modern societal thought, but not everything is a tragedy.

I think this touches something well worth saying. We have people in this game, who at times act as if this is a job, as if there's some kind of leaderboard tracking success and failure. 
And of course, as mentioned, we also have the opposite. 

I feel like I'm one of those geriatrics who've reached 100 years old, and the reporter asks them, "If you could tell anyone younger one piece of advice, what would it be?"
My in-game self would say, "Don't worry about getting to 50. or getting t-4'd across all incarnate powers or getting all the badges. Do what is interesting/fun/amusing for you. That's why you're here, isn't it?" 

 

[RCU7115]

PUGS are like the Dating Game. You never know what will happen.

[Latex]

If you think PUGS are bad in COH you should try some other MMO's, because it's a whole lot worse than here.

This game is pick-up and play and the rate of failure (and punishment for a wipe) is almost non-existent. 
There are no gear requirements for most PUG's other than Hardmode content and maybe itrials.
Loot is personal (if we count recipes), it doesn't exist as a point of contention. 
I can't remember the last time people asked for experience in clearing a mission, itrial or encounter of any type.
There is a meta of character build but 99.9% of people don't care.
Your character/powerset choice won't be declined the vast majority of the time if they're considered underpowered/offmeta
In normal mission pugs one well built character can hard-carry 7 others fairly easily.

 

Reverse all of these points and you get the typical MMO, City of Heroes is extremely chill and casual by comparison, it's a breath of fresh air. There's no real feeling of FOMO (Fear Of Missing Out) that a lot of MMO games have inbuilt, I can play COH when I want, how I want, how often I want, and not feel like I'm behind, undergeared, underlevelled, offmeta, etc.

 

Edited March 4 by Latex

[tidge]

My own take echoes some of what was written above. I see two main issues:

 

1) player inattention.

 

It could be with team chat, team effort, enemy effects (ehem, debuffs, confuses), enemy behavior, whatever.

 

2) getting upset or frustrated by something a teammate did or said... And NOT being an adult about it.

 

It doesn't kill the flow of a PUG to let a teammate know *you* think they did something *wrong*. Maybe they didn't!

 

In the interest of over sharing: I have a couple of squishy characters with self resurrection powers on pretty short cooldowns. If we aren't on a no death challenge, I am running those characters HOT and I accept that in about 2% of +4 spawns I am going to eat dirt... But meanwhile I have upped the team DPS by significant margins. From the outside, this could look like some sort of crazy solo player trying to show off... And maybe it is, but this is using powers I actually chose and slotted!

 

 

Edited March 4 by tidge
for the adult who asked politely for clarification

[Ukase]

1 minute ago, tidge said:

It could be wet team chat

Forgive someone who is older, and likely behind the times. Is the term "wet chat" used here a typo? Or does it mean something? If so, what does "wet chat" mean? 

[tidge]

Aquatic blasters really dampen the mood I guess.

[StarseedWarrior]

5 hours ago, MoonSheep said:

i think @Ukase sums this thread up quite well. we assume that everyone is trying their best and those who are dragging are a bit thick, when in reality it may just be that some people simply don’t care or aren’t giving it much attention

 

some people are also just bad at playing the game because they aren’t interesting in knowing you can stack shields between missions, that certain powers are a must have or that casting an immob when things are spread out is usually a bad idea

 

i find a number people on HC also have a weird fear and/or ego about dying and stay so far back from every mob that they’re often quite ineffective - just carry a wakie

I think this is lack of communication it depends on the team to stay at ranged.

[Haijinx]

Some people have put a lot of thought into this.

[StarseedWarrior]

I dont think allot here have seen what I may have seen in other mmos but for example in guild wars 2 you have helpers but they are called teachers there and many will lead newbies into certain content to help train them. On occasion ive seen similar here. It helps create a better team community.

[Infeareal]

Since coming back and pretty much only leading teams I would say that I have had 0 actual "bad" teams. Sometimes slower, sometimes faster, occasionally a wanderer or two, more often than not some super elite I have ran this 3 million times I am going to run ahead because I have the build and I can.

 

None of those are bad experiences though. I have not had a group fail. I am not doing hard mode content though but plan on leading higher tier content and hardmode soon. In particular for non optimized builds, no gatekeeping allowed. 

People are way too sensitive, these are the people that tend to ruin games for new players (which is bad), they ruin social content for the average player. Most up to 80% of player bases in video games are not "skilled" not like what the top end groups show, or what the fastest kill speeds are, that is such a small percentage of the player base in any game. If you run in pugs you should expect that 6 of 8 people at most are average and if you understand the original coh devs designed content around each player being able to handle +0/1x. So if in a group before hardmode you can handle + level content with equal or higher team numbers then you are way ahead of what was expected of the average skilled player.

Given that especially the last few weeks we have a ton of new players, I have had so many people apologize cause they have never joined a group or coh is new to them (I brought a few new players myself). Lot's of returners that have not done anything in a long time. We have an aging population that enjoys creating characters and running solo content at really low levels then occasionally want a badge or achievements. We have many social players than are turned off by the speed run mentality but occasionally try.

I have gotten numerous thanks from people in all those groups for taking time, or teaching, or checking in on them. I send messages to people I see lost, if someone communicates they are new or not familiar I engage them in chat. These are some very easy ways to avoid "bad" pugs. I also lead with "team builder/glue" characters that can cover mistakes or boost team potential so that helps. I have recently taught a couple of 50's what IO's were as they had no idea as the game in its current state really does not introduce you to that.

Now given that one of the reasons I lead teams and play glue type classes (healers or tanks in other games generally) is because the one thing that is a big blocker is bad leaders. A good leader can generally overcome even some of the worst aspects of a team (skill, class, and even social). Coming back to coh I tried to join teams and it was hit or miss which is okay but normally the leader had no idea how to "lead" and in some cases they were totally new to it, again which is more than okay its great. I quickly realized I was giving more tips, helping, and actually being lead then I was just a group player so back to it I went. Again none of these were bad, I just knew I could do it better and more efficiently, my friends list been blowing up in the 5-6 weeks I have been back. I have been in some bad groups in my day in games and nothing has even come close to touching them, coh is such a casual game that even if a mission, tf, or trial went to absolute crud it was the waste of an hour or two of time at the most. 

[Crossie]

There's literally no other way to get to 50 than ask to join people's AE farms.  What u talking?

[biostem]

I think a big part the issue is that people chase 50 to the detriment of their journey to get there, so they "accept" an underperforming or otherwise gimped build because they're following some guide to have an uber build once they do get to the level cap and are fully IO'd out.  Similarly, there is this "go go go" mentality, so many players will select powers that deal better DPS/DPA in lieu of one that may provide better utility.  Finally, (and possibly the most damning), is this notion of "soloing while teamed" - People want to play, not have to learn battle tactics or follow commands.  Even things like expecting players to follow the team leader or enter missions in a timely manner can lead to much frustration...

[Gerswin]

I always assumed that some of my PUG teammates were RPing a serious brain injury.

[mechahamham]

The vast majority of folks I team with are reasonable people who just want to have fun. They group, do a few taskforces or missions, and, for the most part, have that fun. That said, I do see a few problematic cases:

 

As others have already said, communication is key, and that goes both ways. It's not just you communicating with your team, but others communicating with you. There's a lot to be said for letting your team do their jobs without going into too much instruction, but when no one says *anything*, there's going to be problems down the line. Be clear about what you want out of the team and what they can expect from you, and that's true of both leaders and regular team members. When a team member or team leader refuses to communicate or, worse, acts like they're communicating, but is simply ignoring everything said to them, once things go sour they stay sour.

 

A good example of this: I was on a lower level character, an 18ish mastermind. The team leader was 22ish, iirc. The mission difficulty was at +4. Members of the team indicated that they thought, with the current team build, that +4 was going to be too much. The team wiped two or three times on the first couple groups. The leader kinda gave away that they were ignoring or discarding the team's concerns by saying, "I don't know why we're not able to do this. You gotta keep the tank healed!"

 

The entire team bailed at that point.

 

Another issue is that, as we gain new players, they come from other MMOs where it's possible or even common to take lots of grief for not building perfectly on the 'Meta', or get derided because they don't understand the game's mechanics yet. They don't ask questions because they don't want to be called out. I personally try to err on the side of verbosity just to help these individuals enjoy themselves. This means actually answering questions. Often it means phrasing things so that it doesn't seem like you're trying to catch problems, but offering help.

 

For example, on Summer Blockbuster, I used to ask if everyone was familiar with the trial, but kept running into *crickets*, and then one or more of the team drops when they realize that they're responsible for objectives they don't understand. Instead, I now say, "If you're not familiar with the roles or the badges, don't be afraid to say something. I can call out a walkthrough of all the objectives."

 

It was a night and day difference! Whereas I'd get crickets before, now people will say that they haven't done it before. I've got a not-too-brief explanation of the different movie roles and the badge requirements saved to a custom popmenu, but often just mention selecting a role and the parts that role is responsible for.

 

That leads in to the next issue I see popping up: ADHD, and to a lesser extent, dyslexia making communication issues more difficult than they might otherwise have been.

 

I married into a family where both are common, so I get to see both sides of the frustration it causes them. ADHD can make it very frustrating to try to keep up with the things going on in the game *and* chat, *and* anything that may be happening IRL. My father-in-law was dyslexic. He loved to game, but was mortified of feeling like people were waiting on him to read the game's text and chat boxes, so he missed a LOT that happened even in just our family groups. He didn't stick with CoH or any other MMOs for that reason alone.

 

This is one of the few areas where I feel like HC development staff and modding community could actively help. There exist fonts and font features that aid dyslexic folks in their reading ability: https://www.weareteachers.com/best-fonts-for-dyslexia/

 

There was a thread a while back about using fonts other than the standard RedCircle/Montreal combo:

I personally chimed in in that thread to share my experiences with switching fonts, and offered some font suggestions. Perhaps we should see if we can't put together a 'dyslexic friendly' font mod for CoH?

 

Another problem stemming from our newer players is the fact that, as our community grows, so do the number of people who want to gatekeep or otherwise behave in an elitist way. GIFT/Online Disinhibition is a thing: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Online_disinhibition_effect, but every niche community, online or off, seems to gather its gatekeepers.
"Well, I liked them BEFORE they were cool!" In CoH, this sometimes takes the form of people trying to impose 'Search first' rules on /help chat. This morning, I watched a player on Excel angrily tell others in /help that they were wrong and then offer 'corrected' advice that could have just been a rephrasing. Since the official license announcement, I've heard a few players who've come from other private servers try to impose those servers' rules or lack thereof onto Homecoming players.

 

Largely due to our increasingly polarized media, doubling-down behavior has become more and more problematic EVERYWHERE, but these players almost universally do the 'I can do whatever the hell I want!' spiel or some variation on it when you ask them nicely to stop problematic behavior or advise them that they're contradicting HC's rules.

 

Our long-suffering GM staff is ALREADY working against these kinds of players, but I think it's important for all of us to know that they're out there and that we should not go down that same path. When these players are on your team, though, and they start with abusive, elitist behavior, it's important to a) ask them nicely to stop, b) politely remove them from the team when they don't, and c) ATTEMPT to ensure those being attacked that the elitists are a very vocal minority here on HC.

[TECHWON]

i don't mind PUG teams but MO itrials and star content is a NO GO for me!!!!

[Fihn]

3 hours ago, mechahamham said:

Another problem stemming from our newer players is the fact that, as our community grows, so do the number of people who want to gatekeep or otherwise behave in an elitist way. GIFT/Online Disinhibition is a thing: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Online_disinhibition_effect, but every niche community, online or off, seems to gather its gatekeepers.

I'm a new return, I guess it's been months, but it still feels new, and I've definitely run into these people. At first every group was extremely welcoming but around the time I hit 40 I ran into the WoW mindset a few times. Someone actually wanted to know what I had slotted before doing Manticore. Another required team teleport. He had some unpleasant words when I asked him if he had it, which I interpreted as "no." I've been sticking to working on alts for a while now and that's solved  a lot of that problem.

 

I get it though, it can be frustrating when you're playing a kinetic and every time you try to target through a melee player to heal them you discover their target is on the other side of the room, or when your tank skipped as much defence as they could in favour of attacks or the thermal corrupter is laughing about only having taken one skill from their support set so you'll have to heal the 3 rooms the group is somehow fighting in at the same time - not that any of that happened to me all in the same group at once, tonight. The point is, newbs will learn - if you're patient it's not a real problem, but elitists don't ever seem to change, and the bars they like to set are often ridiculous. If only they would extend their elitism to disdain for pubs and stick to their SGs for grouping.

[mechahamham]

56 minutes ago, Fihn said:

Someone actually wanted to know what I had slotted before doing Manticore.

 

FFS.

 

Quote

Another required team teleport. He had some unpleasant words when I asked him if he had it, which I interpreted as "no." I've been sticking to working on alts for a while now and that's solved  a lot of that problem.

 

gee crimanitely.

 

We've got a few players on Excel who want to control exactly who or what goes into their teams and leagues. However, the ones I know of are always very good at broadcasting ahead of time what their intentions and requirements are. As soon as you get a few playernotes you can say, "Oh, that's one of their alts. That looked like one of their recruitment messages. I'll just steer clear of that team since it's not for me." It's not that I don't care for them as a person. Just, I don't like how strict they are with their teams.

 

Additionally, a demand for the Team Transporter is an instant 'nope' from me, even when the team is doing Dr. Quarterfield's TF. I've only had that happen once or twice since I started playing on Excel. "Wait, you're demanding that the entire team have TT? For *Citadel*? I'm sorry. I think this isn't the team for me," which I think were my exact words despite the fact that character did indeed have all the prestige teleports. That was.... early last year I want to say. At the time, I think I immediately floated another Citadel and had like half the team I was just on join me. Again, usually the team leader is very upfront about what they expect when recruiting, like "Looking for 4 more for a speed Dr. Q. TT required for this run," which I *do* see every so often when Dr. Q is the weekly.  When they start demanding things after the team starts, then it's time to politely nope out.

[Troo]

14 hours ago, tidge said:

some sort of crazy solo player trying to show off..

 

thats so tidge... 😛

[Skyhawke]

As has already been said, a good majority of us are either creeping up on 50 or have passed it. We've allllll seen how people can be, by now. Do bad PUGs really surprise anyone? 😅

[Judasace]

22 hours ago, RCU7115 said:

PUGS are like the Dating Game. You never know what will happen.

 

Yeah, sometimes its dancing with the host, and sometimes you pick a literal Serial Killer.