Why do we have bad PUG experiences?

[FFFF]

I've had my share of bad pick-up groups recently though the majority of my teaming experiences have mostly been quiet competence, teammates who join and fulfill expectations but are relatively quiet.

 

There are some of us that have well over a decade plus of experience, and let's be honest, this game isn't that tough. There's really nothing that require twitch reflexes, buffs/debuffs are very powerful and encounters are rare where you require players to act in a specific sequence or apply anything more than the simplest of strategies (e.g., "don't go on the stairs until we clear around it).

 

And yet we are regaled continually of stories of incompetence, bad team play, and sometimes bad behavior bordering on griefing.

 

This would make sense if this was 2004 and the player base had only a couple of months under their collective playing experience, but this is 20 years later. Yes, there are "AE babies", characters that are manned by players who rush to level 50, but I think those are rarer than what most people believe. I think this is an overwhelming veteran playing base, and the state of play from our random pick-up group doesn't seem to match what I think should be better overall play.

 

I wonder a little if the bad play could be a result of part-time play. The vast majority of us have careers, families, activities, outside of this game and dip in only here or there. Maybe, it's truly rust. I know that I'm competent on just about anything pre-incarnate but I'm not knowledgeable about iTrials or how to speed past certain obstacles.

 

The other reason could be that some of us just don't care that much about our quality of play. I know there's more than a few that may enjoy an adult beverage or two while playing and that could obviously affect judgment, reflexes or even behavior. Others may just be tired of the pace of traditional team (which begs the question of why join one in the first place) and may try to solo in the context of a team.

 

Thoughts?

[Haijinx]

Cause some people are dumb?

[Sunsette]

Most of the time I'm on a group that goes bad vs one that doesn't, I mostly notice that the groups which go bad don't have like two+ veteran, overbuilt characters who can sufficiently compensate for the worst possible things anyone else does.

 

The game is very easy if you know what you're doing, but the freedom granted by build and play also allows you to screw yourself and others over phenomenally. An overbuilt party can compensate for these to an extent, but most veteran players don't overbuild.

Edited March 3 by Sunsette

[Troo]

"this game isn't that tough"

In my opinion, the gap between playing and playing well is larger than some realize.

Sure button mashing can work and some combinations are easier than others.

 

Could it be player expectations? Maybe.

Could it be the 'level to 50 and then start playing' trend? Maybe.

Could it be communication and leadership get tossed aside as teams race to stream roll the next mission as fast as possible? Maybe.

Maybe it's that an incarnate can carry a team and when there isn't one it is noticeable.

 

Regardless, we get to play and even when failing.. it is fun right up until we realize how doomed we are, isn't it?

maybe @Snarky-ing and find another team

or see it through?

 

 

Edited March 4 by Troo

[StarseedWarrior]

1. It is this simple friends, to much meta speed running, yes we understand you have been playing for decades and tired of the content well that is there personal issue and likely should play something else, however its their choice but they need to make it clear when they are making teams they do not care how it effects others and will speed run to the extreme and leave them behind and not even tp you.

 

2. Lack of communication within the teams, yes we understand it gets annoying but if you are not willing to communicate things to new and inexperienced players then you should not likely be making teams with pugs. Also people do not put incarnate requirements and more when recruiting. 

 

3. The laziness or intimidation of leading teams, I get it but if we want better pugs we are really going to have to step up our game.

 

4. Now this is the less important issue but its also important in the fun factor of teams, I noticed certain servers often you will find very silent or uptight teams, the last I checked this is a video game about fun and people should really consider typing a message or even laugh goes a long ways in making a team feel less robotic and more alive, to often I see very funny rp or jokes and no one saids a word.  When people are having fun they usually do allot better but when we act cold and distant no one wants to help the team as much.

 

[Luminara]

I assume full responsibility for informing the community that it's all @Snarky's fault.

[Oubliette_Red]

Bad PUG experiences for me are often caused by:

 

1. Folks playing solo on a team. If you're going to run off on your own then complain when you've been pounded into the floor, don't bitch and moan to or about about the other players who kept together and covered each others' back. If you can hold your own, fine, if not then the 'G' in PUG stands from Group.
2. Being unfamiliar with a special mechanic is a mission and ignoring instructions on how to deal with it. Not everything in the game requires brute force, some thing require you to use items/kill X but not Y/defeat or destroy item prior to defeating X/etc.
3. Not paying attention. Team activity being advertised 'Kill most or kill all' and players punching straight through to the end.

 

[Scarlet Shocker]

Why do we have bad PUG experiences?

 

We don't!

[FFFF]

1 hour ago, Oubliette_Red said:

Bad PUG experiences for me are often caused by:

 

1. Folks playing solo on a team. If you're going to run off on your own then complain when you've been pounded into the floor, don't bitch and moan to or about about the other players who kept together and covered each others' back. If you can hold your own, fine, if not then the 'G' in PUG stands from Group.
2. Being unfamiliar with a special mechanic is a mission and ignoring instructions on how to deal with it. Not everything in the game requires brute force, some thing require you to use items/kill X but not Y/defeat or destroy item prior to defeating X/etc.
3. Not paying attention. Team activity being advertised 'Kill most or kill all' and players punching straight through to the end.

 

I think all these are somewhat excusable if you’re talking about a player base that’s a mix of old and new players. Some of us have probably played certain task forces upwards of a 100+ times. How can people still be this bad with that much repetition? 

[Ukase]

The reasons may vary wildly. I'll just give my two cents, so to speak. 

First, there's a tendency to remember the negative more than the positive. Further, what fun is it to post about a team-up that went just fine, nothing to speak of? 

Secondly, it's got less to do with the intellectual capacity of the player, or their experience, but their attention span. 

If I had a nickel for every time someone's mentioned a cat on their keyboard, I'd at least have a roll of nickels! 
So, there's cats, there's babies, there's other family - some folks play at work and have to close the screen quickly. 

Sometimes, it's just a matter of the player falling asleep because the weed chilled him out too much. I've never smoked weed, but I suspect something like that is possible. I firmly believe that drugs are probably about 5% of the reasons things go crazy on some teams. Folks are drinking or drunk, or stoned out of their minds, or under the influence of some chemical. Maybe it's too much caffeine. 

In some cases, it's just a matter of someone who doesn't really pay attention for whatever reason. So many folks just do this to mindlessly pass the time, and they really don't care about your experience. If the phone rings, they stop fighting, get up and answer the phone. They'll leave the character wherever it was, and not care one bit if the whole team wipes. Maybe they come back in a few minutes, maybe they don't. 

So many reason for bad play. And those are the excuses/reasons for the good players! 

I spoke with a level 50+ player today who had no idea how little he knew. In his case, it didn't matter, because he didn't want to know! All he wanted to do was be able to run a farm on his own, instead of being just a hitter. I asked him why he wanted to farm. He said it just relaxed him. On Task forces and mission teams he had no idea what was going on. 

This just puzzles me to no end. I can't fathom how you don't know what's going on. It's pretty clear to me! But - I've been doing CoH in it's various flavors a long time. And I still learn stuff - like - who knew you could target through a portable work bench? I sure didn't! But during a Nemesis raid, too low level to have any pets, and I couldn't target a thing.. anyway, I digress. 
Our player base is filled with folks who may be sharp, but have trouble seeing various colors. Or just have trouble seeing. One guy I know is literally deaf. Makes Discord kind of pointless for him. And he's still a better player than some folks who have all their senses, except common sense! 

We never know what's going on the other side of the keyboard. But by and large, my vote is bad play is usually the result of drinking to a point where folks just don't care what happens. Some folks think dying is part of the attack chain. Some folks are just crazy. 

[Yomo Kimyata]

A PUG is just like every group project you have ever had to work on in school or a work session.  The weakest link will often define the overall success, and a lot of the time one person will shoulder everything simply because they can't stand the idea of someone else effing it up and having their reputation burnished.

 

However, who cares?!?  This is a simple game, and there is absolutely nothing at stake.  If you are running a MoTF or +4 difficulty for rewards, sure, take your time and recruit wisely.  Otherwise, who cares if someone hasn't made an optimized build, or are trying out a new build for the first time, or didn't realize that their immobilize power overrides knockdown, or a billion other things.  When I have time to team, I will build it myself and choose the content.  And I KNOW that if need be I can solo it by myself, so why get my knickers in a wad?  If other people are having fun and hopefully learning things, that's a win in my book.  However, I have no truck with griefers, and there are plenty of players out there who are classic dark triad personalities.

[StarseedWarrior]

3 hours ago, Oubliette_Red said:

Bad PUG experiences for me are often caused by:

 

1. Folks playing solo on a team. If you're going to run off on your own then complain when you've been pounded into the floor, don't bitch and moan to or about about the other players who kept together and covered each others' back. If you can hold your own, fine, if not then the 'G' in PUG stands from Group.
2. Being unfamiliar with a special mechanic is a mission and ignoring instructions on how to deal with it. Not everything in the game requires brute force, some thing require you to use items/kill X but not Y/defeat or destroy item prior to defeating X/etc.
3. Not paying attention. Team activity being advertised 'Kill most or kill all' and players punching straight through to the end.

 

Yea the solo thing really drives me nuts people are so selfish in an mmo that effects us all, they only slow down the efficiency of getting the content done to begin with...

Edited March 4 by StarseedWarrior

[StarseedWarrior]

23 minutes ago, Yomo Kimyata said:

A PUG is just like every group project you have ever had to work on in school or a work session.  The weakest link will often define the overall success, and a lot of the time one person will shoulder everything simply because they can't stand the idea of someone else effing it up and having their reputation burnished.

 

However, who cares?!?  This is a simple game, and there is absolutely nothing at stake.  If you are running a MoTF or +4 difficulty for rewards, sure, take your time and recruit wisely.  Otherwise, who cares if someone hasn't made an optimized build, or are trying out a new build for the first time, or didn't realize that their immobilize power overrides knockdown, or a billion other things.  When I have time to team, I will build it myself and choose the content.  And I KNOW that if need be I can solo it by myself, so why get my knickers in a wad?  If other people are having fun and hopefully learning things, that's a win in my book.  However, I have no truck with griefers, and there are plenty of players out there who are classic dark triad personalities.

Except these are not casual projects I agree with your attitude here but not all of the context, if your pugging often then its a little more daunting over time if that makes any sense. It has nothing to do with someone on occasion soloing in the team it happens in pugs a very high percentage of the time, so its understandable when you know you could be getting the mission done allot more efficently and allot more fun let me give you an example. If I am playing a kinetics buffer/support then if people are split up, no one else but the group im with will benefit from fuclom shift, end returns, as well as heals, and the other side are dying often this is not fun most of the time for others in my experience.

 

This is not that kind of mmo where you can solo doing other things unless it is an easy mission, teaming is not about just joining a team its about cooperation, and this mmo is a heavy cooperation based mmo much like other older mmos at the time, its deep in the mechanics and you cannot really change that without breaking the game. Soloing is for soloing that is why it is called soloing lol.

[Bionic_Flea]

Pugs are Batman karma at work.  You don't get the pug experience you deserve, you get the pug experience you need.

[Jacke]

21 minutes ago, Bionic_Flea said:

Pugs are Batman karma at work.  You don't get the pug experience you deserve, you get the pug experience you need.

 

It sure ain't the PUG experience we want!  😺

[starro]

A PUG is a friend you haven’t made yet.  Also a PUG is someone you have not blocked yet. 

 

i still bring up a 90 minute Thanksgiving Eve PUG from back on live with old guild mates  or my spouse and we all agree it was single handed the most bizarre online thing we ever experienced. 

[PeregrineFalcon]

My main is a tank and I spent years leading PuGs on Freedom and Virtue and then on Torchbearer. In all of those years leading PuGs I had maybe a handful of bad experiences. So maybe, just maybe, if you're having a lot of problems with PuGs the problem is you.

 

Nah, that can't be it. We're all perfect. It's those other people who aren't on the forums who are the problem, right?

[Ironblade]

7 hours ago, FFFF said:

This would make sense if this was 2004 and the player base had only a couple of months under their collective playing experience, but this is 20 years later.

 

I run multiple task forces every week and I think you're seriously underestimating how many new players are around.  Also, returning players that haven't touch the game since around 2010 and just found out that it's back.

 

Having said that, I also recognize that my experience may be skewed by the fact that I only lead task forces and basically never lead teams for random arcs, radio missions, etc.  Players who sign on for a task force are probably more focused and experienced than the average PUG member.

[FFFF]

1 hour ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

My main is a tank and I spent years leading PuGs on Freedom and Virtue and then on Torchbearer. In all of those years leading PuGs I had maybe a handful of bad experiences. So maybe, just maybe, if you're having a lot of problems with PuGs the problem is you.

 

Nah, that can't be it. We're all perfect. It's those other people who aren't on the forums who are the problem, right?

I’m not sure why you’re so snippy. I made it clear that the majority of my PUG experiences are quiet but competent. I’m surprised there seems to quite an abundance of stories of bad experiences. Without fail, there is a weekly story here about some failing. 
 

If you have something to add to this conversation great. If you’re trying to snidely insult me then yeah, that’s evident. Good day to you. 

[Jiro Ito]

Maybe it's a consequence of not properly setting expectations up front, or not communicating those expectations effectively?

[PeregrineFalcon]

33 minutes ago, FFFF said:

I’m not sure why you’re so snippy. I made it clear that the majority of my PUG experiences are quiet but competent. I’m surprised there seems to quite an abundance of stories of bad experiences. Without fail, there is a weekly story here about some failing.

I should have made it clear that I was speaking in general not about you specifically. In fact I was actually agreeing with you.

 

A lot of people on the forums who complain about PuGs fail to even consider the possibility that they are the problem. Like you, I've read a ton of threads over the years complaining about how people act in PuGs and the thread generally devolves into "people on the forums are awesome, everyone else is garbage."

 

Needless to say I don't agree with that point of view.

[Jacke]

Okay, more seriously.

 

People are people.  If you want better than what's the standard issue, then what's needed is:

• Better common schooling ('cause schooling is often effectively weak for a broad selection of reasons that often vary).
• Standard training designed for true competency (it works for all good Armed Forces around the world).

Here at Muppet Labs Homecoming City of Heroes, we don't get either.

 

So it's people are people, a lot of On-the-Job-Training (OJT), and strap in, 'cause it's going to be a bumpy ride!  😺

 

What's Past is Prologue.  Some of my history that connects with the topic.

• Started playing City of Heroes in 2005.
• Been with Repeat Offenders since 2006.
  • RO is good to great at learning the game, making the builds, and running Team content.
  • I've learned a lot with them and become better at playing, making builds, even leading Teams.
  • Since 2019 Apr 24th, RO repeated that here on Homecoming, mostly on the Everlasting Shard.
• Where also dwells and operates Everlasting TFs, with several players leading all sorts of content every day.
  • They're fantastic at running large, complex, and hard content, guiding all sorts of players through them.
  • My main Badging toon now has all Masters-of Badges on all content thanks to them.
• Thanks to this, I even understand my Nemesis now.
  • Not the Prussian Prince of Automatons.
  • The Keyes iTrial.
    • Other large and complex content I eventually sort-of understood after a few runs.
    • The Keyes iTrial confused the heck out of me despite being dragged through it several times.
    • Then I went with Everlasting TFs on the Keyes.
      • And the League Leader explained EVERYTHING before each part of the iTrial.
      • Going through the iTrial, it all made sense to me now.
      • I could even do critical roles successfully.
    • OOOOOOOMMMMMMMMHHHHHHHHHH
    • Enlightenment dawns.

As in every human task, Leadership and Training is key.  Failures are usually failures in Leadership, if only failure of Leadership to ensure proper Training.

 

This is true but weakly applicable to City of Heroes.

 

Playing City is very much supposed to be a social, informal, and relaxing gaming experience.  This includes its Leadership and Training.

 

What do I see in City play?  The sames things as in Real Life but in the nature of City of Heroes:  People are people.

• Everyone learns the most about City as OJT, soaking it all up during play.  Takes a while, very variable.
• This includes how to lead Teams and Leagues in City content, also mostly OJT and very variable.
• This is very much social Leadership, more informal, less systematic.  As is any Training.
• Some players take extra time to learn some things better.  Also read and post on the Forums.  Sometimes that pays off.
• A lot of City off-line conversation talks about making better builds and some better tactics, especially for harder content.
  • The absolute "best" builds are not necessary.
    • "Best" pursues some goals at the cost of weakening others, which can hurt them.
    • "Best" is tricky and often a moving target due to City game changes.
  • Builds good enough in critical ways makes play more enjoyable and reduces frustrations.
  • Good harder-content Team and League pre-TF and in-TF chat talks about what to expect and vital tactics.
  • The best Leaders of that harder content get most of those chats from a crafted Info Popmenu.
    • The best Info Popmenus get improved from experience.
  • That knowledge and better tactics delivered to the players is required for better experiences of the harder content.
  • Some of the hardest content requires very careful knowledge, teaming, and tactics.
    • Eventually needs coordinated balancing of Incarnate Destiny powers across the Team during most of the content.
    • Going to play that content on a toon, extra Destiny powers to T3 and eventually T4 should be a long-term consideration.
• There's good players who sometimes figure they can push the envelop, split the Team, etc.
  • Sometimes they judge it right.  Sometimes they don't.
  • The better players judge this correctly more often, especially when to slow down, team up, and be careful.
• A lot of the times on PUG Teams, I see a lot of low Endurance bars.
  • Having a build with enough net recovery and adjusting play to aid recovery are basic core skills vital to good City play.
  • Always have charges of Recovery Serum because most content allows temp powers.
  • Have those issues solved in the build and tactics before playing the content not allowing temp powers.
  • I wonder what other weaknesses the players and their toons' builds have.
• I've heard more bad PUG stories from my guild mates than I've personally experienced.
  • All sorts of bad PUG stories.
  • Including poor PUG Teams going for harder Notoriety than they can possibly handle.

People are people.

• Accept that things will sometimes go wrong (it happens on the best of teams too).
• Perhaps gently make some helpful comments.  Be prepared for them to be ignored.

There's reasons why there was a focus on improving the New Player Experience in Page 7's changes.  This is a game with multiple steep learning curves.

 

 

Edited March 7 by Jacke

[MoonSheep]

i think @Ukase sums this thread up quite well. we assume that everyone is trying their best and those who are dragging are a bit thick, when in reality it may just be that some people simply don’t care or aren’t giving it much attention

 

some people are also just bad at playing the game because they aren’t interesting in knowing you can stack shields between missions, that certain powers are a must have or that casting an immob when things are spread out is usually a bad idea

 

i find a number people on HC also have a weird fear and/or ego about dying and stay so far back from every mob that they’re often quite ineffective - just carry a wakie

[MoonSheep]

i also think we can all be a bit guilty of this at times.. 

 

[NotsoevilDM]

8 hours ago, Ironblade said:

... returning players that haven't touch the game since around 2010 and just found out that it's back...

That's pretty much me. Played a lot back in the day, but only recently got back into the game. Basically having to learn everything again. Loving it, but does mean I am a bit all over the place when teaming - anywhere from solid DPS to where's that TF?, oops didn't mean to aggro that mob, got lost on the way / in the map, etc. etc.