Why do we have bad PUG experiences?

[Sovera]

7 minutes ago, Clave Dark 5 said:

The fact that this is the one game that won't  scold you for playing a petless MM is one of its strengths.  Feature, not a bug. 

 

I'll say it again (and those coupla people will drop by to downvote me again, just watch), but I recently leveled a semi-petless MM (lion-only Beast/Storm) and never once got any grief or even a "huh?" for it.  Every time I asked to join a PUG I'd let them know what I was running and no one cared. 

 

'Sentinels are rejected because...'

Me who has played the game for years now and never saw any AT rejected from a team: huh?

[lemming]

15 minutes ago, Sovera said:

'Sentinels are rejected because...'

Me who has played the game for years now and never saw any AT rejected from a team: huh?

Oddly, I seem to be rejected on ITFs.  Once for a sentinel, once for not having set bonuses on my blaster.  (Was generic IO'd, but with incarnates filled out)

 

However, that is twice in many years.  Oh, back in 2005, my Kinetic Def got rejected because I wasn't an Empathy. 😉  So three times!

[tidge]

18 hours ago, Uun said:

Not true for incarnate content. All MM henchman are level shifted to the MM's level, including any incarnate shifts. 

 

Also Crabberminds' pets, IIRC.

[tidge]

10 hours ago, lemming said:

Oddly, I seem to be rejected on ITFs.  Once for a sentinel, once for not having set bonuses on my blaster.  (Was generic IO'd, but with incarnates filled out)

 

However, that is twice in many years.  Oh, back in 2005, my Kinetic Def got rejected because I wasn't an Empathy. 😉  So three times!

 

While I can't say I've seen players be rejected, I can believe the (post-2005, anyway) things happened. A couple of Homecoming anecdotes:

 

1) I do often see people offer to switch to a different AT, unprompted. This is a sort of self-selection that I'm not crazy about (play what you want, we'll be ok!) but I can sort of understand.

 

2) This past weekend I PUGed on a team where the leader was always actively recruiting for 'healers'. This was a new player (*1), playing a Brute... and after a couple of missions I could see why that player felt they needed a healer. No shame on the leader, but they weren't slotted (or playing) for survival and the offense was kinda passive. I don't know that this player was rejecting folks, but they came across as pretty slow in accepting players, which I took to mean they had AT preferences. Again, CoX isn't a 'trinity' game... but after playing most of the Task Force Commander TFs with that player, I don't think they realized it.... yet.

 

(*1) I say 'new' because they were traveling back to TF contacts rather than calling the mission completions in.

 

EDIT: I want to add that (2) wasn't that bad of a PUG experience, up until some of the PUGmates were getting confused to the point where they were Taunting/AoE teammates and healing enemies.  ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Edited March 7 by tidge

[Marshal_General]

I wonder if most of the bad PUGs is from people sitting in a farm until 50 with no idea how to play their character, run missions or actually do things with a group?

[Sunsette]

1 hour ago, Marshal_General said:

I wonder if most of the bad PUGs is from people sitting in a farm until 50 with no idea how to play their character, run missions or actually do things with a group?

 

My experience is that 1 to 50 doorsit players are bad for the game because they are most likely to result in players who are bored and unattached to the game but there's not a meaningful attachment to being good at it. 

 

The leveling process is only good at teaching players how to game if they are the sorts that seek out how to be good at a game already. Games with much less obscured mechanics also experience this. 

 

2 hours ago, tidge said:

I do often see people offer to switch to a different AT, unprompted. This is a sort of self-selection that I'm not crazy about (play what you want, we'll be ok!) but I can sort of understand.

 

I will definitely self-select out for group composition if I see a major skew and it's not content I'm confident can be steamrolled that way. But for average TFs and mission arcs, I agree. 

Edited March 7 by Sunsette

[lemming]

6 hours ago, tidge said:

1) I do often see people offer to switch to a different AT, unprompted. This is a sort of self-selection that I'm not crazy about (play what you want, we'll be ok!) but I can sort of understand.

There are a couple areas where that's not bad.  Sometimes, they're on one char, and see that there's a role to fill with a char they'd prefer.  Sometimes they feel they'll be overshadowed by some of the others.   No one answer on that one.

 

There's definitely some selection going on with HC modes since some of it is figuring out how.   Not as much wiggle room on that 4 star K'ong fight if you want a squeaky toy.

[Jacke]

On 3/4/2024 at 11:27 AM, Major_Decoy said:

Until I can slot taunt in my blaster's AoE attacks instead of damage sets, there will never be an ideal pick-up group experience.

 

Blaster's AoE attacks are taunts.  What do you think happens just before the Blaster's moto: Face-down and proud!

 

 

On 3/4/2024 at 2:14 PM, Ukase said:

I feel like I'm one of those geriatrics who've reached 100 years old, and the reporter asks them, "If you could tell anyone younger one piece of advice, what would it be?"
My in-game self would say, "Don't worry about getting to 50. or getting t-4'd across all incarnate powers or getting all the badges. Do what is interesting/fun/amusing for you. That's why you're here, isn't it?"

 

I think having goals is admirable.  I also think it's important to enjoy the journey, even focus on the journey, while heading towards those goals.  Both are important.

 

 

On 3/4/2024 at 4:10 PM, Latex said:

I can't remember the last time people asked for experience in clearing a mission, itrial or encounter of any type.

 

My experience is the opposite; I often hear these requests for help.  This is also a game that can easily present obstacles.  If players don't know how to reset a mission via swapping to another mission, or logging out, or for Task Forces the longer log out needed for reset, then it's very easy to have issues here.  With the new auto-exemplar feature for old missions, it may become more common.

 

And at least for general game missions, someone can get help by adding others to the Team.  Not possible on Ouro arcs or Task Forces without restarting.  Which is often the solution too.

 

 

On 3/4/2024 at 4:29 PM, tidge said:

My own take echoes some of what was written above. I see two main issues:

.....

In the interest of over sharing: I have a couple of squishy characters with self resurrection powers on pretty short cooldowns. If we aren't on a no death challenge, I am running those characters HOT and I accept that in about 2% of +4 spawns I am going to eat dirt... But meanwhile I have upped the team DPS by significant margins. From the outside, this could look like some sort of crazy solo player trying to show off... And maybe it is, but this is using powers I actually chose and slotted!

 

Excellent points!  As @Troo noted, also so @tidge. 😺  The Blaster's moto: Face-down and proud!  It's not just for Blasters, everyone can do it!

 

Once you get the basics and intermediates of the game down pat, pushing the envelop in a smart way is how to test builds, test tactics, test your playing.  And have fun!  If it's not a no-defeat case like a no-defeat Master's run or other no-defeat, getting sent to the floor by the mobs is just your opportunity to say in Team chat:  "Oops."  😺

 

 

On 3/4/2024 at 4:31 PM, Ukase said:

Forgive someone who is older, and likely behind the times. Is the term "wet chat" used here a typo? Or does it mean something? If so, what does "wet chat" mean? 

 

At risk of being accused of treating the humour like pushing the marshmallow through the screen (gets through but something is lost in the process)....

 

All the talk about "Wet" is from a feature that was added, then later dropped during Page 7's Open Beta.  To boost the effects of some powers, a "Wet" status was added by using other powers.  I imagine it was dropped due to just adding too much complexity and another fiddly thing to remember.  Barely recall it.  Except for all the "Wet" jokes.  (Which goes back to at least "The Rocky Horror Show" and one of it's songs. 😺)

 

 

On 3/5/2024 at 4:43 AM, Fihn said:

Someone actually wanted to know what I had slotted before doing Manticore.

 

You should have responded "A gentleman never tells.  And should never acknowledge such impertinent questions.  Good day, sir!"

 

 

 

 

[Major_Decoy]

47 minutes ago, Jacke said:

Blaster's AoE attacks are taunts.  What do you think happens just before the Blaster's moto: Face-down and proud!

Yes, and slotting for taunt increases the efficacy of taunts.

[Oklahoman]

6 hours ago, Sunsette said:

My experience is that 1 to 50 doorsit players are bad for the game because they are most likely to result in players who are bored and unattached to the game but there's not a meaningful attachment to being good at it. 

 

I've said before that these are the people who arrive in iTrials (sometimes at +3 somehow) and don't know how to pass the league star, don't know how to use the map, don't know how to give an item to someone else without using the trade window, aren't sure what of their attacks are AoE or have KB, etc. "How to do I get to Ouro?" is a legit question I have received from a 50+3.

[Sunsette]

I doubt not at all that you run into those people. I do too. But more of the people I run into that have no clue what they're doing despite being/having 50s have never seen the inside of a farm than ones that have.

[ZemX]

3 hours ago, Jacke said:

Blaster's AoE attacks are taunts.  What do you think happens just before the Blaster's moto: Face-down and proud!

 

That's not taunting. That's hitting something first.  If you are the first to hit something, you are automatically at the top of its shit list and are thus receiving at least one (1) "thank you" from each mob in return.  And believe me, in this dept. Blasters have got nothing on Controllers.   Most Controllers (and Doms) have a 30ft radius AoE attack on an 8 second timer that can hit 16 targets known as an AoE Immobilize.  These guys can piss off everything in a whole room before my Tanker even has a chance to THINK about taunting a few of them.  I've seen Controllers on PuGs kill themselves repeatedly before finally realizing that maybe they should.. you know.. wait a few seconds before whipping that out?

[cranebump]

I think we all have plenty of good PuG experiences. But reading about a well-oiled machine (of which there are so many) is much less interesting than rubbernecking the occasional shitshow. It's weird, but when things go wonky, I find myself enjoying the experience (in some weirdly masochistic way). Proves I'm still playing with humans, in all their, um, "splendor.":-) That said, I DO try to avoid being the cause of it. But sometimes, well...you just have one of those moments (I'm looking at YOU, me-playing-a-scrapper flying back to Pos1 steps after dying, with a jetpack, then turning it off so you can drop right in the middle of a CoT gaggle next to the steps [owowowowowowowowowow!..fwump...]).

Edited March 8 by cranebump

[ZemX]

12 minutes ago, cranebump said:

I think we all have plenty of good PuG experiences. But reading about a well-oiled machine (of which there are so many) is much less interesting than rubbernecking the occasional shitshow. It's weird...

 

Is it though?  I mean this is the superhero genre.  If the world ain't burning... they don't need US to save it!  It's like when you invite a healer to your team and then nobody gets hurt.   You almost feel kind of bad for them, right?

 

No?

 

Just me?

 

Okay.

[Cyri]

Never really had a bad PUG experience...iunno.  People expect perfection...ain't gonna happen.

[Jacke]

7 hours ago, ZemX said:

And believe me, in this dept. Blasters have got nothing on Controllers.

 

Oh, so it's a competition....  First to get all 6 Debt Badges wins!!!  😺

 

Finally, a use for bad PUG experiences.  Nothing like having the Team recruit the mobs to voice their opinion.  😸

[Carnifax]

On 3/6/2024 at 9:45 PM, KITANYA said:

If those Buffs (that make you move real fast!) bother you and your control of you character, you can go to Pocket D and talk to Null the Gull to turn off the extreme speed. You still have the buffs/added stats, just not the crazy speed that can make you fall off floors etc 😄

 

Or you can keep it on and become accustomed and used to it 😄

And then become addicted, end up rolling a Kin yourself and join the Speed Addicts club. 

 

I genuinely get upset if there's no Kin on an ITF (usually I bring one). It's the funnest way to run the ITF, even in hard mode. If we have one already I might still bring mine, or switch to something like a Fire/Claws tank to take advantage. 

 

My favourite player quote of all time comes from waaaaay back in i5 or i6 when I was first running a Kin/Elec. We were Hollows lowbies and someone said "Hey, why is the Defender in melee with the tank??". Tank immediately says "Because he's a Kin! My lil buddy in the mosh pit". I friended them on the spot. 

Edited March 8 by Carnifax

[Latex]

On 3/6/2024 at 9:22 PM, Luminara said:

 

That's a load of bullshit.  This is a game in which people willingly carry low-level turnips, who have two attacks and nothing but body odor for defense, through level 50+ content; and team composition is so flexible that a bunch of Empathy defenders with one attack apiece can ROFLstomp everything they see, there's nothing "cringe" about playing a petless mastermind on a team.  If you're so bad at the game that you can't progress without being surrounded by seven living gods, the problem isn't the petless mastermind, it's you.

 

Get off of that high horse before you fall and hurt yourself.

It's pretty difficult to be bad at City of Heroes you have to go out of your way to be truly bad, there isn't a measurement of good or bad players other than team sentiment (thus me posting in a topic called Bad PUG Experiences) and whilst at higher levels when people are setted out and enhanced the 1 person of a 7 person group could carry fairly easily (in standard +4/8 content), things are very different for the actual endgame content such as hardmodes and itrials.

I think the assumption "If you're so bad at the game that you can't progress without being surrounded by seven living gods, the problem isn't the petless mastermind, it's you." here is outright the wrong way to play social MMO's, if everyone on the team has this attitude you might struggle and cause someone to post on the forums about bad PUG experiences.

What happens when there isn't an overbuilt carry and everyone on the team thinks someone else is going to carry them? Bad PUG happens.

Edited March 8 by Latex

[cranebump]

21 hours ago, ZemX said:

  It's like when you invite a healer to your team and then nobody gets hurt.   You almost feel kind of bad for them, right?

 

No?

 

Just me?

 

Okay.

I think I must agree, based on the number of blasters I play.:-)

Edited March 8 by cranebump

[Cyri]

On 3/6/2024 at 11:12 AM, Latex said:

On Petless MM's...

If I play League of Legends and one of my teammates doesn't buy items I can report them and they'll literally get their account suspended for griefing/trolling the game. They're not playing the game as intended and ruining the experience for everyone else.

If you play Mercy in Overwatch as the only team healer and you never use heals, you'll probably end up with a game suspension after a while too (Blizz is generally more lenient on what is and what isn't trolling) but 'refusing to play your assigned role' is a punishable offence in most team-based games.

If you're playing a Petless MM and joining PUG's you're doing the same thing and while it's not a competitive game (e.g. PVP) you're degrading the experience for the rest of your team, basically trolling. If you do it solo more power to you, but joining groups as a petless MM is just cringe.

 

That is a bit sanctimonious.  Simply don't team with those MMs.  Solved.  Again, I am not sure we get to tell people how to play.  If they're not actively sabotaging my fun, I generally don't care what people on my teams do. 

 

As for bad pugs...I cannot remember the last time I had a bad experience.  Relax...enjoy the game.