Make EB Shivans available from the S.T.A.R.T. vendor

[EJane]

Hello!

Elite Boss Shivans are available if you do the Bloody Bay repeatable quest and are quite useful early on at taking down AVs/Heroes. They'd make the perfect in-between summon between Radio for Backup and the Signature Hero summons. It would save a lot of time if we could just purchase the power instead of doing a 20-30 minute zone-wide mission to scout each meteor and then take down a firebase.

[Rudra]

Given how powerful the Shivan Decimator is, prior to Lore pets and even now alongside Lore pets, Shivan Decimators were used by players to make seemingly impossible fights easy, I doubt the devs will agree to just let us buy them. They are a reward for risking ourselves in a PvP zone and successfully completing the mission.

Edited March 14 by Rudra

[Greycat]

It is *not* a 20-30 minute mission. Especially now with the "everyone gets a jetpack," which lets you hover above the meteor in a range that the shivans normally won't spawn at.

 

Besides, why buy them when it's a *free* and easy grab? It's not like anyone PVPs in Bloody Bay...

[Glacier Peak]

I see this as a slippery slope, where if implemented, would lead to the Longbow and Arachnos Heavies in Recluse's Victory and the Warburg Nukes in Warburg being advocated for the same reason. No thanks!

[Mystoc]

3 hours ago, Glacier Peak said:

I see this as a slippery slope, where if implemented, would lead to the Longbow and Arachnos Heavies in Recluse's Victory and the Warburg Nukes in Warburg being advocated for the same reason. No thanks!

 

hasn't that already begun the second we were allowed to buy combat summons from START? really its a question of the price or if its too cheap that its tempting everyone to do this. but if the cost is prohibitive you aren't going to see people leveling up constantly do this just 50s

 

[Glacier Peak]

12 minutes ago, Mystoc said:

 

hasn't that already begun the second we were allowed to buy combat summons from START? really its a question of the price or if its too cheap that its tempting everyone to do this. but if the cost is prohibitive you aren't going to see people leveling up constantly do this just 50s

 

The combat summons were from the Paragon Market Veteran Rewards Program, not a PvP zone exclusive reward. 

Edited March 14 by Glacier Peak

[lemming]

10 minutes ago, Mystoc said:

hasn't that already begun the second we were allowed to buy combat summons from START? really its a question of the price or if its too cheap that its tempting everyone to do this. but if the cost is prohibitive you aren't going to see people leveling up constantly do this just 50s

Those were former vet rewards that became available when all that was put into the START vendor.  The PvP summons were in game for everyone else.

[Rudra]

9 minutes ago, Mystoc said:

 

hasn't that already begun the second we were allowed to buy combat summons from START? really its a question of the price or if its too cheap that its tempting everyone to do this. but if the cost is prohibitive you aren't going to see people leveling up constantly do this just 50s

 

Certain things are only available in PvP zones to draw players into them. The Shivan Decimator summon is one of them. So are the pets you get for having max reputation in RV when the zone goes to reset for enough pillboxes being taken. So if we want those pets, we have to go risk ourselves in PvP. Not somethiong I particularly care for as a dedicated PvE player, but I do at least get the idea behind it.

[Mystoc]

22 minutes ago, Glacier Peak said:

The combat summons were from the Paragon Market, not a PvP zone exclusive reward. 

temp fly used to only be exclusive to sirens call as well as safeguard and mayhem missions and over time that changed now it is available straight from START

 

if a summon did similar damage and had the same utility as an EB summon but wasn't the exact same summon from BB would it be fine? do you take issue with it being the same name and exact powers? or is it the power level of the combat summon you object too?

 

 

Edited March 14 by Mystoc

[Mystoc]

Quote

Certain things are only available in PvP zones to draw players into them. The Shivan Decimator summon is one of them. So are the pets you get for having max reputation in RV when the zone goes to reset for enough pillboxes being taken. So if we want those pets, we have to go risk ourselves in PvP. Not somethiong I particularly care for as a dedicated PvE player, but I do at least get the idea behind it.

 

flawed argument PvP IO's were exclusive to PvP but then they weren't. the devs saw most players disliked PVP so much that not enough people engaged with it as a result the market did not have enough PVP IOs to meet demand so they were changed to be global drops.

 

the devs have shown they are willing to make changes if the desire is high enough, they will ignore precedent to do so. The real question is this a change that most players want?

 

 

 

Edited March 14 by Mystoc

[Rudra]

18 minutes ago, Mystoc said:

temp fly used to only be exclusive to sirens call as well as bank and mayhem missions and over time that changed now it is available straight from START

 

if a summon did similar damage and had the same utility as an EB summon but wasn't the exact same summon from BB would it be fine? do you take issue with it being the same name and exact powers? or is it the power level of the combat summon you object too?

 

 

Like you said, players could get a temp fly power from other sources than just PvP. However, the only way to get an Arachnos or Longbow mech, or the Shivan pet, was to go into a PvP zone and get it.

 

5 minutes ago, Mystoc said:

 

flawed argument PvP IO's were exclusive to PvP but then they weren't. the devs saw most players disliked PVP so much that enough people engaged with it as a result the market did not have enough PVP IOs to meet demand so they were changed to be global drops.

 

the devs have shown they are willing to make changes if the desire is high enough, they will ignore precedent to do so. The real question is this a change that most players want?

Unlike the Shivan Decimator from BB or the Arachnos/Longbow pet from RV, anyone could get the PvP IO sets without ever setting foot in a PvP zone. Even back on Live. They just had to pay a lot to get them. However, you could never buy the pet, only earn it. So your argument is flawed.

 

Edit: And as has already been pointed out, there is very little PvP on HC, so running into BB to complete the mission and get the mission reward pet is not exactly a huge ask these days.

Edited March 14 by Rudra

[Frozen Burn]

12 hours ago, EJane said:

Hello!

Elite Boss Shivans are available if you do the Bloody Bay repeatable quest and are quite useful early on at taking down AVs/Heroes. They'd make the perfect in-between summon between Radio for Backup and the Signature Hero summons. It would save a lot of time if we could just purchase the power instead of doing a 20-30 minute zone-wide mission to scout each meteor and then take down a firebase.

 

This would negate the big draw for even playing in Bloody Bay, as not many PvP.  You can get into Bloody Bay at lvl 15 which is early enough.  What AVs do you have to face prior to level 15??  Doctor Vahzilok in the Posi 2 TF, and that's really it.  Plus, the START vendor has Envenomed Daggers that are cheap to buy and will destroy an AVs regen rate for easier solo-ability.

 

There is no need for Shivans to be purchasable on the onset from START Vendors. 

[arcane]

I don’t even like that powerful pets or Envenomed Daggers are at the P2W vendors. Definitely don’t want to see us go further down that road.

[Mystoc]

19 minutes ago, Rudra said:

Like you said, players could get a temp fly power from other sources than just PvP. However, the only way to get an Arachnos or Longbow mech, or the Shivan pet, was to go into a PvP zone and get it.

19 minutes ago, Rudra said:

 

Unlike the Shivan Decimator from BB or the Arachnos/Longbow pet from RV, anyone could get the PvP IO sets without ever setting foot in a PvP zone. Even back on Live. They just had to pay a lot to get them. However, you could never buy the pet, only earn it. So your argument is flawed.

my point is if a method for getting something that requires pvp is too costly or annoying to access the devs change the game to meet player needs. getting temp fly was too costly and annoying so they made it easier (bank missions in the past were very hard to find) and PVP IOs were just way to expensive so the game adapted.

 

What I am more interested in because I do not know this answer is what is the power level of the combat summons that are currently sold by START are they comparable to the pvp combat summons or just super outclassed?

Edited March 14 by Mystoc

[Purrfekshawn]

More Shivans, good and different!

[Rudra]

1 minute ago, Mystoc said:

my point is if a method for getting something that is requires pvp is too costly or annoying to access the devs game the change the game to meet player needs. getting temp fly was too costly and annoying so they made it easier (bank missions in the past were very hard to find)

 

What I am more interested in because I do not know this answer is what is the power level of the combat summons that are currently sold by START are they comparable to the pvp combat summons or just super outclassed?

Let me try phrasing this a different way. The Shivan Decimator pet is a mission completion reward. Just like the Wailer Queen summon power (which is instead a Tar Patch for non-magic characters). So the OP is asking to take a mission reward and make it directly purchasable.  Why even have the mission then? And how many other mission reward pets will be asked to simply be purchasable from START? START is the place where players can go and get the powers they had as a reward for up to 7 years of playing the game. So that players would not have to again play for 7 years to get what they used to have, START exists and provides the means of getting those powers quickly. As far as I can tell, what START does not do is grant mission rewards. So why should the devs add a mission reward to START?

[Mystoc]

28 minutes ago, Rudra said:

Let me try phrasing this a different way. The Shivan Decimator pet is a mission completion reward. Just like the Wailer Queen summon power (which is instead a Tar Patch for non-magic characters). So the OP is asking to take a mission reward and make it directly purchasable.  Why even have the mission then? And how many other mission reward pets will be asked to simply be purchasable from START?

my argument is bit different then OPs I guess why would anyone even care if this was added either way if a player is having trouble with a boss they could just buy a different combat summon or just used envenomed dagger or get many temp auto powers the game is already past the point where we should be concerned about a player using money to gain huge temporary power to win. so no player would even take the time ever do this mission. the amount of people that even feel the need to do this mission for combat help is zero START does what this summon could but better with less effort. this mission would done for nostalgia and the badge it gives that's it there is no reason anyone would need this for combat there's just faster options that only need money

 

 You have convinced a change like this isn't needed but for way different reasons nothing would change powerwise if this was added it to START, it would just be another summon to be bought that makes nostalgic players mad so better to leave it out

28 minutes ago, Rudra said:

 

START is the place where players can go and get the powers they had as a reward for up to 7 years of playing the game. So that players would not have to again play for 7 years to get what they used to have, START exists and provides the means of getting those powers quickly. As far as I can tell, what START does not do is grant mission rewards. So why should the devs add a mission reward to START?

just cause it existed in the base game does not mean its a good fit for homecoming, some vet powers were very nice and offered really good QoL some were not the idea that because it was like this in past it needs to be like this now baffles me.

 

START has evolved past the VETS had this in the old game so it needs to be there argument. START 100% offers things to players that VET rewards did by this point it should discussion about if it make for sense for powers like this to be sold not precedent.

 

EDIT: the devs have even acknowledged this by renaming the vendor from its past P2W vendor joke name to a more serious in game lore name.

 

 

Edited March 14 by Mystoc

[Rudra]

16 minutes ago, Mystoc said:

so no player would even take the time ever do this mission. the amount of people that even feel the need to do this mission for combat help is zero START does what this summon could but better with less effort. this mission would done for nostalgia and the badge it gives that's it there is no reason anyone would need this for combat there's just faster options that only need money

Not true. I have multiple characters go into BB and do the mission to get the Shivan Decimator just for those times I need the extra power. (My main MM has 10 temp pet powers including the RV and BB pets so that if I am on a SF and it goes sideways, like the technician being in Hell Room in the Binder of Beasts SF, I spawn my temp summons and eat everything while the team grabs the tech and runs.) As for your faster options comment? Great! Then they have the options they need to deal with whatever and don't need the Shivan Decimator. Grab the Envenomed Dagger and the Signature Summons.

 

16 minutes ago, Mystoc said:

You have convinced a change like this isn't needed but for way different reasons nothing would change powerwise if this way added it to START, it would just be another summon to be bought that makes nostalgic players mad so better to leave it out

Like you said, START already provides ample means of a character buying what they need to devour their opposition. So why should yet more be added when that more will be taking away an incentive to do the content that already provides it? In a game where players are calling for more content, the OP is basically asking for a way to not do the already available content.

 

16 minutes ago, Mystoc said:

just cause it existed in the base game does not mean its a good fit for homecoming, some vet powers were very nice and offered really good QoL some were not the idea that because it was like this in past it needs to be like this now baffles me.

 

START has evolved past the VETS had this in the old game so it needs to be there argument. START 100% offers things to players that VET rewards did  by this point it should discussion about if it make for sense for powers like this to be sold not precedent.

Yes, START provides everything the old Veteran Rewards program gave without having to wait for years to get them. START offers temp flight powers? Temp flight powers were available for purchase from vendors as far back as the Shadow Shard. You just don't have to find a way to the (previously level-locked) Shadow Shard to buy them any more. However, START does not offer mission rewards for sale. Because if you want the mission reward, you have to do the mission. The Shivan Decimator is a mission reward. The mission is located in a PvP zone, yes, but it is still a mission reward. And if you start offering mission rewards in START, then you're going to need to make all the mission rewards available. So being able to buy mission rewards? No. If a player wants a pet to make tough fights easier, they can buy the four Signature Summon powers. Or if they want other options they can get the Envenomed Dagger. Or both and make things stupid easy. So no, there is no justification for a mission reward pet, even if it is in a PvP zone, being added to START.

 

Edited March 14 by Rudra
Edited to correct "wheil" to "while".

[Oubliette_Red]

13 hours ago, Greycat said:

It is *not* a 20-30 minute mission. Especially now with the "everyone gets a jetpack," which lets you hover above the meteor in a range that the shivans normally won't spawn at.

 

Besides, why buy them when it's a *free* and easy grab? It's not like anyone PVPs in Bloody Bay...

 

Because then it would still require effort.

 

[Greycat]

2 hours ago, Mystoc said:

my point is if a method for getting something that requires pvp is too costly or annoying to access the devs change the game to meet player needs. getting temp fly was too costly and annoying so they made it easier (bank missions in the past were very hard to find) and PVP IOs were just way to expensive so the game adapted.

 

What I am more interested in because I do not know this answer is what is the power level of the combat summons that are currently sold by START are they comparable to the pvp combat summons or just super outclassed?

 

1. They're not particularly annoying to get.  It's very simple, even on a low damage character.

2. They're not a player need. Not by a long shot.

3. Temp fly was never "too costly." It even got handed out at times as a free power through missions, even before Day Jobs. (And with the revamped posi, you got it during the 2nd arc.)

4. Bank missions were hard to find? When? The side missions show up on the map.

 

As far as the START summons? One's a ... solidly ok PPD or Arachnos reinforcement for 500k. The signature summons at 10m each are much tougher. The Shivans self-destruct after some time and are *really* rather slow.  (Believe the 500k reinforcement also times out after a few minutes. Don't recall for the signature summons. Only one I don't think I've had time out is the Vanguard heavy, and *maybe* the PVP heavy from RV.) The Shivans can be knocked back and around fairly easily.

 

And if you really want to compare? Head to the test server. Use the "cheat menu" and buy the summons. (Can only use one signature summon at a time.)

[Hedgefund]

A quick "well akshully" before giving my thoughts...

 

Upthread it was said that you could enter BB at lvl 15.  All PVP zones are open to all, regardless of level now, all the way down to level 1. 

 

So this doesn't turn into a round "nuh uh" "uh huh" here's a screeny of my lvl 2 in BB:

 

 

 I'm in the "always have a Shiv on hand" camp so I (mostly) always have Shivs available.  Frankly I enjoy the task.  I've got it down pat by now and I'd be surprised if it took 10 minutes from getting the scanner to trading it in for my 5 shiv charges.  This obviously varies by damage ability but even the most high damage will finish, like two minutes before my lowest damagers.  Anyway, my point is, I wouldn't use a P2W version and would strongly object to eliminating the BB Shivan mini-game if that were the cost.  Truth be told if you want to add a Shiv to P2W and give it an exorbitant cost I wouldn't care, that's fine with me,  Just leave the current shiv acquisition process alone.

Edited March 14 by Hedgefund

[Luminara]

3 hours ago, Mystoc said:

the amount of people that even feel the need to do this mission for combat help is zero

 

Then there's no reason to make it available for inf*.

[BurtHutt]

18 hours ago, EJane said:

Hello!

Elite Boss Shivans are available if you do the Bloody Bay repeatable quest and are quite useful early on at taking down AVs/Heroes. They'd make the perfect in-between summon between Radio for Backup and the Signature Hero summons. It would save a lot of time if we could just purchase the power instead of doing a 20-30 minute zone-wide mission to scout each meteor and then take down a firebase.

Why not just have a button that bumps your toon to level 50 with all the IOs and maxed out incarnates? Even better, right!

 

Also, i wish the Devs would stop messing with these types of things. What was the point of giving us a sprint (I now have to return it and take the one I prefer - Ninja Run) and a jet pack right off the hop. I don't care for all the make it easy stuff. The grind is part of the allure to any game. Sure, it's not always fun but if you remove it then everything is too easy and people grow bored even quicker.

 

Anyway, whatevs.