ppm Procs Per Minute (PPM) Information Guide

[eiynp]

sorry if this has been covered already; I haven't been through the whole thread

 

I'd like to better understand how procs work in aura powers; I was plug and chugging hot feet through the formula to try and compare proccing it out vs slotting it for damage, and it wasn't clear to me whether the expected change was per tick per mob, or if the proc rate was globally limited within the power (i.e. does the expected number of procs scale linearly with number of targets.)

[Redlynne]

Opportunities to proc happen upon activation of the toggle aura, but once a proc chance is made the chance to proc is "suppressed" for 10s and after that delay is completed the NEXT activation of the toggle after that will be the next opportunity for procs to happen again.  Because of this, the opportunities to proc happen ~10s no matter how fast the activation time actually is.  There's an extra layer of computation to figure out EXACTLY how frequently the procs CAN happen/get checked for ... but for simplicity we just figure them as having a chance to proc every ~10s.

 

When procs are allowed to happen, the check is made on each $Target affected by the power, up to the Max Targets limit of the power during that specific activation.

[Bopper]

10 hours ago, eiynp said:

sorry if this has been covered already; I haven't been through the whole thread

 

I'd like to better understand how procs work in aura powers; I was plug and chugging hot feet through the formula to try and compare proccing it out vs slotting it for damage, and it wasn't clear to me whether the expected change was per tick per mob, or if the proc rate was globally limited within the power (i.e. does the expected number of procs scale linearly with number of targets.)

Redlynne covered it above, but I wanted to quote/tag you so you'll be notified you have an answer.

 

The first post covers what you're wanting to know, which is how to calculate a proc rate in a toggle:

For all other Powers (Toggles, Auto, Pseudopets?):

Probability to Proc = PPM * ActivatePeriod / (60 * AreaMod)     

*Note* This is not the ActivatePeriod of the power, it is the ActivatePeriod of the Proc Enhancement which seems to always be 10 seconds. 

 

That chance to proc will occur every 10 seconds and it will be applied to each target within your aura at the time of the proc chance. It doesn't matter how many targets are within your aura, they all have the same chance to proc (formula above).

 

Since the ActivatePeriod is always 10 seconds, you can simplify the formula to be:

Probability to Proc = PPM / (6 * AreaMod)

[Maxzero]

 

Just something I am wondering about.

 

There are a rare few procs that are not PPM with Overwhelming Force 20% chance to KD being the most universal.

 

So I am wondering how this proc would go in an aura? Would a aura with a 10 second activation period give a 20% proc chance for each target in it's area of effect?

Edited May 19, 2020 by Maxzero

[Redlynne]

Overwhelming Force is 20% chance per activation of the power, and would be checked individually per $Target hit by the power ... so it's not a 20% chance to make everything fall down at the same time in unison.  As for whether that's a 20% chance per activation time of the power (0.5 to 2 seconds is typical) or merely a 20% chance per ~10 seconds or so would require testing to determine.

[ILIWAPCT]

Currently I slot (Gaussian) in Tactics thinking that it would fire more often and increase average game session damage. Putting it in Buildup seemed like gambling, double buildup on high value target versus a game session where you activated it 1-3 times and it never went off. 

 

After reading the thread I think my reasoning may be off and it would be better to move it to Buildup. 

However my alts (solo) with a mm lackey which means maybe it should stay in Tactics?

 

Next question is Force Feedback.

Prior to this thread  I read that you want to slot it in a AOE etc. to increase the chance to proc.

But in the beginning of the thread it talked about single target powers procing better then AOE due to other variables.

 

So I'm a little confused as if I should continue to experiment with it as it seems no one does. 

For reference trying to get a (cheap) permanent domination and  more pets for Crab Spider.

[Hopestar]

The reason you increase the chance of Force Feedback procing is because AOEs can hit multiple targets, so the more potential targets the greater the chance, exponentially making the bad chance (because of {AreaMod < 1} decreasing it) better. Normally this is not so great for procs, but for FF as long as you hit at least one target, the proc succeeded in it's job.

[Bopper]

1 hour ago, ILIWAPCT said:

After reading the thread

For Gaussian, slotting it in Buildup makes it reliable as you almost always have a 90% chance to proc GSFC when you cast it (if you have less than 60% slotted recharge, roughly).

 

Tactics will only trigger once per 10s, and its AoE gives you a very small chance to proc. But when you have a bunch of teammates and pets, you get lots of opportunities to proc. So there is a point where you get enough of those opportunities to proc more frequently than slotting GSDC into Buildup.

 

As for ForceFeedback, it can only buff you once on a cast. But it gets a chance to proc on every enemy you hit. So like in the tactics example, the AoE hurts your probability to proc off of an individual target, but the high number of targets makes it more likely you proc at least once.

 

I can show you the math if you like, but hopefully that helps.

[ILIWAPCT]

10 hours ago, Bopper said:

For Gaussian, slotting it in Buildup makes it reliable as you almost always have a 90% chance to proc GSFC when you cast it (if you have less than 60% slotted recharge, roughly).

 

Tactics will only trigger once per 10s, and its AoE gives you a very small chance to proc. But when you have a bunch of teammates and pets, you get lots of opportunities to proc. So there is a point where you get enough of those opportunities to proc more frequently than slotting GSDC into Buildup.

 

As for ForceFeedback, it can only buff you once on a cast. But it gets a chance to proc on every enemy you hit. So like in the tactics example, the AoE hurts your probability to proc off of an individual target, but the high number of targets makes it more likely you proc at least once.

 

I can show you the math if you like, but hopefully that helps.

Global Recharge is high (Domination) but I can easily keep Buildup's  slotted recharge <60% when I move Gaussian.

 

I had planned to put Force Feedback in (Radiation Siphon) (Ice/Rad) at level 22 but since its a single attack power my expectations were low. In the mean time,  the opportunity came up to pop it into (Electron Haze) earlier. On my last play-thru I focused on observing the other (recharging powers) instantly pop back up and they never did. Will (Radiation Siphon) fair better? Maybe the cone on (Electron Haze) is too small?

 

On my Crab, I'd have to add (frag grenade) to theoretically get double (summon spiderlings & call reinforcements)

[Bopper]

3 hours ago, ILIWAPCT said:

On my last play-thru I focused on observing the other (recharging powers) instantly pop back up and they never did

What do you mean by expecting powers to instantly pop back up?

[ILIWAPCT]

5 minutes ago, Bopper said:

What do you mean by expecting powers to instantly pop back up?

100% recharge boost. 

[Bopper]

2 minutes ago, ILIWAPCT said:

100% recharge boost. 

A 100% recharge boost does not mean powers will instantly recharge, but rather they will recharge faster. I have a guide on recharge in my signature block, if you'd like more information on the topic. But basically, what +100% recharge does is it reduces the amount of cooldown by an extra second for every second of gameplay that passes.

 

So let's say you have a power that normally has a 60s recharge. You slot it with 100% enhanced recharge, the power now cools down in 30s. Thats because for every second of game play, the power reduces 1 second from your base (100%), and another 1 second from your enhanced (100%). So it doesn't come back instantly, it comes back faster.

[ILIWAPCT]

11 minutes ago, Bopper said:

A 100% recharge boost does not mean powers will instantly recharge, but rather they will recharge faster. I have a guide on recharge in my signature block, if you'd like more information on the topic. But basically, what +100% recharge does is it reduces the amount of cooldown by an extra second for every second of gameplay that passes.

 

So let's say you have a power that normally has a 60s recharge. You slot it with 100% enhanced recharge, the power now cools down in 30s. Thats because for every second of game play, the power reduces 1 second from your base (100%), and another 1 second from your enhanced (100%). So it doesn't come back instantly, it comes back faster.

That changes everything.

 

For my Crab, (frag grenade) wasn't apart of the build, it was a trade-off made for a bigger reward.

Likewise (Electron Haze).

 

This bring me back to my original plan of (Radiation Siphon). I have no idea how the math all works out, but it seems like Force Feedback would just be the cherry on top instead of a key part of a Domination build. 

 

 

[Bopper]

13 minutes ago, ILIWAPCT said:

That changes everything.

 

For my Crab, (frag grenade) wasn't apart of the build, it was a trade-off made for a bigger reward.

Likewise (Electron Haze).

 

This bring me back to my original plan of (Radiation Siphon). I have no idea how the math all works out, but it seems like Force Feedback would just be the cherry on top instead of a key part of a Domination build. 

 

 

Could be the cherry on top. I recommend using the formulas on the first post to figure out the math for your Radiation Siphon. I was able to leverage FF procs in my Granite Tank (gets a -65% recharge debuff) to get perma hasten in farms or when saturated with enemies. So its viable to use.

[kiramon]

So for something like... Carrion Creepers, do you have to do the proc chance % for each ability the pet casts, assuming you slot recharge into Carrion?

[Bopper]

8 hours ago, kiramon said:

So for something like... Carrion Creepers, do you have to do the proc chance % for each ability the pet casts, assuming you slot recharge into Carrion?

I don't know enough about Carrion Creepers, but on page 8 Frosticus provided some feedback (link). But to answer your question, yes, you would have to calculate a proc chance for each ability the power casts. Slotting recharge into Carrion won't affect the proc probabilities, as every effect from that cast is a summoning of a pet/pseudopet.  From the entities it summons, you will want to know which enhancements it takes, because that will tell you which procs that summoned entity will use. From there, you will want to know if it's a pseudopet (patch) or an actual pet. A pseudopet will just sit there, with a proc chance happening every 10s. A pet will have its own attacks, and those attacks will have their own recharge and cast time. Those attacks will use the regular proc formula (don't worry about your slotted recharge as pets don't use it). Overall, it's a headache. But if you want to look up the effects, you can use RubyRed's Powers API tool to sift through the powers info. Here is a link to Carrion Creepers, I recommend opening it in FireFox as it has a built in JSON reader that makes the format pretty. That link will take you to the folder than handles the initial summoning of pets/pseudopets from casting Carrion Creepers. From there, there are other summonings which you will jump to different folders for those. I wish you luck if you wish to venture down the rabbit hole. Luckily, RubyRed provides url links to all the entities summoned, so you can jump from one page to another fairly easily. 

 

Edited August 5, 2020 by Bopper

[kiramon]

Is there any data on Poison Trap proc % here?  Can it handle recharge like mids suggests? 

[Bopper]

4 hours ago, kiramon said:

Is there any data on Poison Trap proc % here?  Can it handle recharge like mids suggests? 

I'm not completely familiar with Poison Trap, but looking up the powers it would seem as though you summon a trap at the location of the caster. There is a *chance* that summoning the trap will do a Single-Target proc check against the caster. However, it would need to be a proc that would apply an effect on a friendly, so perhaps the Performance Shifter proc or Power Transfer proc will trigger when summoning the entity, which will be a 90% chance to fire given its 1 minute base recharge time.

 

As for the pet it summons, it doesn't fire until an enemy gets close to it, in which case there's a *chance* the one enemy that gets close to it (and triggers the self-destruct) will have a chance to get hit with the procs. However, the self destruct has 0 recharge time and 0 cast time, so *IF* the target can get hit with this effect, it will default to the minimum chance to proc ( PPM x 1.5% + 5%).

 

When the Poison Gas Trap self destructs, it will summon 3 effects: Initial Poison Gas, Poison Gas, and Self Destruct. The Initial Poison Gas will hit up to 16 targets in a 25 foot radius and will only have 1 chance to proc. Most likely it uses 10 seconds as an activate period.

 

The Poison Gas will trigger once every 10s and it uses a 15 foot radius (16 max targets) and you should get 3 chances of procs before it self destructs after 30s.

 

 

I hope that helps. I haven't tested the power specifically, but I looked up the power's information and hopefully the information I provided matches how I believe procs work for pets.

[macskull]

36 minutes ago, Bopper said:

I'm not completely familiar with Poison Trap, but looking up the powers it would seem as though you summon a trap at the location of the caster. There is a *chance* that summoning the trap will do a Single-Target proc check against the caster. However, it would need to be a proc that would apply an effect on a friendly, so perhaps the Performance Shifter proc or Power Transfer proc will trigger when summoning the entity, which will be a 90% chance to fire given its 1 minute base recharge time.

 

As for the pet it summons, it doesn't fire until an enemy gets close to it, in which case there's a *chance* the one enemy that gets close to it (and triggers the self-destruct) will have a chance to get hit with the procs. However, the self destruct has 0 recharge time and 0 cast time, so *IF* the target can get hit with this effect, it will default to the minimum chance to proc ( PPM x 1.5% + 5%).

 

When the Poison Gas Trap self destructs, it will summon 3 effects: Initial Poison Gas, Poison Gas, and Self Destruct. The Initial Poison Gas will hit up to 16 targets in a 25 foot radius and will only have 1 chance to proc. Most likely it uses 10 seconds as an activate period.

 

The Poison Gas will trigger once every 10s and it uses a 15 foot radius (16 max targets) and you should get 3 chances of procs before it self destructs after 30s.

 

 

I hope that helps. I haven't tested the power specifically, but I looked up the power's information and hopefully the information I provided matches how I believe procs work for pets.

Can confirm, this is how it works. Poison Trap is an excellent place for the Entomb proc because it'll fire almost every time you use the power.

[Frosticus]

I'm pretty sure the 3rd and 4th roll is set to auto fail in that it always rolls above 95 and misses.

I talked about that aspect in my poison guide along with the issue of it not properly applying -recovery (if and when it does, it only lasts about 1 sec).

[Ukase]

I've been sifting through the PPM spreadsheet, and I have finally made a character with a dark servant. 

Thing is...it doesn't take pet IOs, so I'm guessing it's classified as a psuedo pet. If that is the case, then what would be the radius? Mids doesn't give a value for that in this case. 

Is it still a case where every 10 seconds it will have a chance to proc? Thanks. 

[Bopper]

1 hour ago, Ukase said:

I've been sifting through the PPM spreadsheet, and I have finally made a character with a dark servant. 

Thing is...it doesn't take pet IOs, so I'm guessing it's classified as a psuedo pet. If that is the case, then what would be the radius? Mids doesn't give a value for that in this case. 

Is it still a case where every 10 seconds it will have a chance to proc? Thanks. 

It would not. Dark Servant is a pet with its own attacks, some single target some AoE. Whatever debuffs you slot into it will transfer to attacks that accept those enhancements.

 

Dark Servant has the following powers:

• Chill of the Night, which is a Toggle (use Toggle formula) that does 30% To-Hit debuff in a 10 ft radius around Dark Servant.
• Twilight Grasp is on a 10s cooldown with 2.37s cast time. It is single target and does 5% To-Hit debuff and 10% Damage debuff. 
• Darkest Night is a Toggle that hits in a 25 foot radius around a target. It does 15% To-Hit and 30% Damage debuff (for some reason, I think this doesn't get enhanced, so To-Hit Debuff procs likely won't work on it)
• Tenebrous Tentacles is a 15s cooldown with 1.67s cast time, and it a 40 foot, 40 degree cone. It does 5% To-Hit debuff.

 

So, To-Hit debuffs will likely be your best bet, but you can use Immobilization or Accurate Heal procs if the pet accepts them

 

Edited October 30, 2020 by Bopper

[Carnifax]

6 hours ago, Bopper said:

It would not. Dark Servant is a pet with its own attacks, some single target some AoE. Whatever debuffs you slot into it will transfer to attacks that accept those enhancements.

 

Dark Servant has the following powers:

• Chill of the Night, which is a Toggle (use Toggle formula) that does 30% To-Hit debuff in a 10 ft radius around Dark Servant.
• Twilight Grasp is on a 10s cooldown with 2.37s cast time. It is single target and does 5% To-Hit debuff and 10% Damage debuff. 
• Darkest Night is a Toggle that hits in a 25 foot radius around a target. It does 15% To-Hit and 30% Damage debuff (for some reason, I think this doesn't get enhanced, so To-Hit Debuff procs likely won't work on it)
• Tenebrous Tentacles is a 15s cooldown with 1.67s cast time, and it a 40 foot, 40 degree cone. It does 5% To-Hit debuff.

 

So, To-Hit debuffs will likely be your best bet, but you can use Immobilization or Accurate Heal procs if the pet accepts them

 

4 Cloud Senses, including the proc, is how I'd usually slot it. Maxes out the -ToHit and the proc has a chance to go off for anything he does. 

 

I've no idea why Dark Servant won't take Pet IOs when something like Tornado does. It's very odd. 

[Bopper]

11 minutes ago, Carnifax said:

4 Cloud Senses, including the proc, is how I'd usually slot it. Maxes out the -ToHit and the proc has a chance to go off for anything he does. 

 

I've no idea why Dark Servant won't take Pet IOs when something like Tornado does. It's very odd. 

It's a good thing to ask about. I don't know if that qualifies as a suggestion or a bug report. I suppose you can write it up as a bug report and if it's ignored because it's working as intended, you'll atleast have an answer.

[Ukase]

I thank you for taking the time to reply. I can't fathom the mind-set required to sift through all these procs, and sharing the info in as clean a fashion as you have.