What is Meant by "Weak" or "Underperforming" Powersets?

[PeregrineFalcon]

46 minutes ago, Without_Pause said:

Pet peeve: anyone who uses some variation of 'Not that I am...' as some way to downplay the brunt of what they are about to say. 

Unfortunately, people are so hypersensitive now days that prefacing your post with "Not that I am..." before you explain to them that water is wet is sometimes necessary. People don't write that to keep you from getting upset, they write it to keep the moderator from ban hammering them.

 

Blame the people who keep freaking out and crying to the moderators about every tiny little "micro-aggression" over the last 15 years for this prefix that you hate so much. Don't blame the people who are just trying to be on the internet while also having a point of view that the cry bullies don't agree with.

[Without_Pause]

2 minutes ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

Unfortunately, people are so hypersensitive now days that prefacing your post with "Not that I am..." before you explain to them that water is wet is sometimes necessary. People don't write that to keep you from getting upset, they write it to keep the moderator from ban hammering them.

 

Blame the people who keep freaking out and crying to the moderators about every tiny little "micro-aggression" over the last 15 years for this prefix that you hate so much. Don't blame the people who are just trying to be on the internet while also having a point of view that the cry bullies don't agree with.

The issue isn't explaining water being wet. It is far more infamously used in things like 'Not that I'm a racist, BUT (says something racist)' Sometimes you need to be a dick. Be a dick. Don't apologize for it. See pet peeve 'Sorry not sorry.' 😀 Note, don't be a racist. #CaptainObvious

[macskull]

1 hour ago, Without_Pause said:

There are people who believe the game is still balanced around SOs.

There are people who believe this because the Homecoming devs have explicitly and repeatedly stated that it's true. The only content in the game where that isn't the case is advanced mode stuff.

[cranebump]

4 hours ago, Without_Pause said:

Sometimes you need to be a dick.

 

Hmmmm....trying to recall a specific situation where I was a dick because I needed to be...

 

Hmmm...

 

Nope. My choice. I just was one. Every. Single. Time.

 

(yay, me?):-)

 

[For the record, I thought the "not to be a dick" phrase could've just been omitted from the question, Isn't 'underperforming' self-explanatory? Other than that, agree with W_P's assertion that qualifying a repugnant statement with an inverse assertion is just plain hypocritical (and a bit insulting). I didn’t think the post was repugnant though]

Edited August 23 by cranebump

[ZemX]

21 hours ago, Bionic_Flea said:

The "play what you want" crowd includes a lot of people.  I would put myself in that group and I don't consider myself unhelpful.  Would you put me down as unhelpful?

 

The complaint here is a generalization, to be sure, but it doesn't come from nowhere.  I've seen plenty of people start threads asking for "what to play?" opinions about powers, powersets, and ATs, and then they get some variation of the "You have 1000 slots.  Use them!" response.   Which to me just reads as a polite "fuck you" since it's specifically taking the time to write a whole post that DOESN'T answer the OP's question and at the same time kind of chides them even for asking instead of just playing and seeing for themselves.  It's not like anybody is unaware that they can play the game and judge for themselves, so pointing this out (and ONLY pointing that out) is probably more of a dick move than the person doing it realizes.

 

As long as you're not doing that, you're not being unhelpful.

 

To be clear, not saying there's anything wrong with reminding people of the freedom they have with the 1000 slots and all as long as your reply contains more than just that.  And for the most part, the folks replying to this thread have given more complete answers than just "try it yourself, bucko!"   But it IS a thing that happens sometimes, so I can also see how someone might develop a frustration over this type of responder.

[Bionic_Flea]

If someone only asks "what should I play?" without any other qualifiers or a choice between A and B, then try them all is a perfectly acceptable response in my eyes because I have no idea what that person likes.  Or at least give us an idea if you are min/maxing, soloing, playing with a group of friends, building for PvP or 4 star, trying to make an homage to Superman or other super, or even prefer range, melee, DPS, support, etc.  Although, to be fair, I don't think I would ever recommend Kin melee or poison on an MM.  But I also would not discourage a person from playing that if that's what they wanted to play.

 

Even if they ask, "what does the most DPS" we can just say "Fire" or refer them to Ston's charts and other stuff, but even those depend as much on the build as the powerset.  And as it has been demonstrated by Videra in Koopak's Clear Speed challenge, you can make a Sentinel that clears a Pylon in seconds . . . with temp powers and only concentrating on short term DPS without regard to survival or sustainability.

 

Anyway, I think we've gone off on a bit of a tangent. 

 

I blame Mac!

[Ghost]

2 hours ago, Bionic_Flea said:

If someone only asks "what should I play?" without any other qualifiers or a choice between A and B, then try them all is a perfectly acceptable response in my eyes because I have no idea what that person likes.  Or at least give us an idea if you are min/maxing, soloing, playing with a group of friends, building for PvP or 4 star, trying to make an homage to Superman or other super, or even prefer range, melee, DPS, support, etc.  Although, to be fair, I don't think I would ever recommend Kin melee or poison on an MM.  But I also would not discourage a person from playing that if that's what they wanted to play.

 

Even if they ask, "what does the most DPS" we can just say "Fire" or refer them to Ston's charts and other stuff, but even those depend as much on the build as the powerset.  And as it has been demonstrated by Videra in Koopak's Clear Speed challenge, you can make a Sentinel that clears a Pylon in seconds . . . with temp powers and only concentrating on short term DPS without regard to survival or sustainability.

 

Anyway, I think we've gone off on a bit of a tangent. 

 

I blame Mac!

That’s the problem.

I see people ask “what’s the best damage dealer?”

and then 13 people spout off 13 different answers.

 

If it’s a different question, but  narrowed down - what’s better tank or brute, you will still get a dozen different answers from a dozen different people.

There are no real answers to these generalized questions.  Only opinions.

Unless the player asking goes in depth with what they are looking for, and how they like to play - you’re just throwing crap at the wall.

IMO.

I would much rather see someone say “ Love playing my (insert Powers/AT), but I feel that I could improve my damage/defense/whatever.  Can someone help me?”

 

That can be worked with.

”Tell me what I’ll enjoy” cannot.
 

 

Edited August 23 by Ghost

[kelika2]

On 8/20/2024 at 4:06 PM, Waljoricar said:

concept is king

This is not true because you are self conscious about underperforming enough to make a thread about underperforming.

 

When you are solo and going through +0x0 content you are happy as hell doing your own thing and yeah, i can see concept is king being a thing.  You are in your own world/instance plowing through content and reading things at your own pace.  rough fight?  only your time is lost

 

But, there will be that moment when you enter a group for whatever reason and your defenseless melee pets are getting obliterated by aoe/cleave damage and you are not contributing that will eat away at you as a player.  those other 7 people will not care or even notice a concept.  However, most of the time they will also not notice you underperforming as they go and do their own thing.

 

Kings are nice and all, but concept and usefulness is Elder God territory.

[Waljoricar]

4 hours ago, kelika2 said:

This is not true because you are self conscious about underperforming enough to make a thread about underperforming.

 

This is an odd tone to take with a total stranger. Concept remains the single most important part of making any character for me. Seeing my idea realised on screen is what has kept me playing this game for so long and what motivates me to log in every day. The CC is where I spend most of my tine; everything else is just icing.

 

Starting a discussion about an aspect of the game that gives me pause, or wanting to hear others' opinions about the language we use to talk about powersets isn't evidence of mendacity or a fallacious assertion.

It's very normal for people to have discussions because the enrichment is in the exchange. Not every conversation has to be an opportunity for you to assert dominance or whatever.

 

4 hours ago, kelika2 said:

Kings are nice and all, but concept and usefulness is Elder God territory.

 

What? Do you think we're playing Top Trumps?

Edited August 24 by Waljoricar

[kelika2]

1 hour ago, Waljoricar said:

The CC is where I spend most of my tine; everything else is just icing.

It's very normal for people to have discussions because the enrichment is in the exchange. Not every conversation has to be an opportunity for you to assert dominance or whatever.

At first I thought you wanted help for your characters.  I was wrong.  There was no reason to devolve into the victim role twice in one post.  Maybe three times because I dont know what Top Trumps is and because of how algorithms work these days I will not search for it since I am still dealing with Golden Boy clips in my feed when I got curious back in the '00s.

 

But because I hate talking like that im going to go back to helping you with your characters

try rerolling necro/dark and recolor all the dark fluffy stuff into something greenish in color and maybe have some reliance on the teleportation pool to tote around your dark servant.  bringer of miasma and whatnot.

Also consider energy melee.  got buffed a few times and now has decent AoE while keeping nice single target damage

[Maelwys]

1 hour ago, kelika2 said:

 because I dont know what Top Trumps is

 

Clue: it's (thankfully) got absolutely nothing to do with a certain ex-president.

 

In short, it's a deck of playing cards with various statistics listed upon each card. They get dealt out, and players takes it in turns to choose a stat on their current card and declare it. A larger stat on your card beats a smaller stat on your opponent's card.

 

Wikipedia has a decent entry on the phenomenon.

 

Personally I became aware of them circa 35 years ago with these:

 

Edited August 24 by Maelwys

[Waljoricar]

1 hour ago, kelika2 said:

At first I thought you wanted help for your characters.  I was wrong.

[Snip]
 

 im going to go back to helping you with your characters

👍

 

1 hour ago, kelika2 said:

There was no reason to devolve into the victim role twice in one post.  Maybe three times because I dont know what Top Trumps is and because of how algorithms work these days I will not search for it since I am still dealing with Golden Boy clips in my feed when I got curious back in the '00s.

In all seirousness though, this is a very nice discussions thread and I'm enjoying the discourse. Please be chill.
 

16 hours ago, Without_Pause said:

Let's start at square one. What is underperforming? If we look at how the game was designed, those so called underperforming sets can be made to where they are balanced if not overperforming.  Yes, KM can overperform in a game which is 'balanced against SOs' by using IOs.* The issue is that the current meta has so many builds overperforming other overperforming builds to where those lesser overperforming builds come across as underperforming. I can literally make numerous builds which would be bored soloing the original max diff setting CoH had. IIRC, it was up to +3 with no ability to increase team size so +3/x actual team size. It might have been limited to +2. Wee? Add in the current meta, see higher diff settings, starred content, etc. and it is further evidence that the lesser overperforming sets are in need of being reworked.

This is a really interesting factor I hadn't considered. Being someone that has never actually altered difficulty or team size, it never occurred to me that the thresholds had been increased in HC. Realising that many of the perspectives on powerset efficacy are completely outside of the scope of what the OG came could offer is enlightening.

Which is kind of funny, because I just finsihed perusing the Corrupter sub-forum for opinions (I'm going to stop doing this, this is the last time I swear!) on Sonic Blast and a nice Sonic Blast/Cold Domination build. I came across a pretty consistent theme of "sonic is bad anywhere", that its "rather lackluster" and that taking it on a Corrupter (as opposed to a Defender) is just kind of shooting yourself in the foot. The latter concept was particularly prevalent.

 

Reconsidering those opnions with the knowledge that +4/x8 didn't even exist way back when, I get the impression that +0/x0 content is just not a part of those conversations anymore. With good slotting and a solid gameplay technique, terms like lacklustre, weak or underperforming seem wholly redundant for any powerset, even Regen*. Unless I'm way off base?

Sure, I could eke out a little more oomph from a Sonic Blast Defender, but am I really going to notice the difference in a +0/x0 setting? I'd certainly notice the compromise I made to my oriignal concept.

 

Even if I do decide to switch it up post-50 and start playing +4/x8, do other players really do that much vetting before allowing a player to join them in running that kind of content? "Oh, you chose Sonic Blast on a Corrupter? Pass".

*Poison on masterminds does sound absolutely awful though.
 

Edited August 24 by Waljoricar
Grammar, spelling.

[Kaika]

On 8/22/2024 at 6:31 PM, macskull said:

I suppose that was more directed at the “ignore the BS and play what you enjoy” poster, even though the OP expressed their frustration that even though they enjoyed the idea of Kinetic Melee they didn’t like the idea of being stuck with a low-performance set.

 

I really only take issue with that sort of attitude because it’s incredibly dismissive and especially in help/general chat ingame it is often given as an answer without answering the actual question. I’ve lost track of the number of times I’ve heard “is x or y better?” being followed up with “anything is viable, play what you want.” Like, sure, you can do most content with most builds (when built right and played the right way) but that isn’t actually answering the question that was asked.

 

To be clear here, I don’t think people that think you should play whatever you want are problematic (hell, I’d put myself in that category too). If someone enjoys soloing -1x0 on their Empathy Defender using only Brawl, that’s great, I’m glad they’re having fun.

This.

Sorry short rant

 

I have a unfortunate habit of helping out in help chat, and the question "Which of these sets/combo is better/deal more DPS" is a very common question, and every-time that question gets answered with a genuine opinion and analysis of the sets, someone always comes in to call elitism and assure them that you can "play whatever you find fun" and start to derail the whole conversation. I'm not talking about just stating they like a set, but using the "I find this fun" and the "play what you want" notion in a way to just dismiss discussion, sometimes even going as far as to say "don't listen to those guys" as they bravely try to save the new player from their desire to play a efficient set. It makes discussion of balance into a absolute mess as people join into defiantly claim "I find (under-preforming set) fun!" or "I have a (under-preforming set) character and it does really well (no further context given)"  despite that not being the question asked. For the record, I'm not talking about disagreeing that a set is under-preforming, that's fine, performance is very variable and sometimes sets have bad rep for really no good reason. Nor do I think there is a problem with playing a "under-preforming" set or with a odd play-style, but when someone ask a question like "which or these two sets preform better" getting defensive because you find one of the sets personally fun, isn't answering it. I get it, fun factor is a very important thing in this game, in any game really, but we don't need people swooping into every discussion about efficiency to remind us that you should have fun when playing the game, believe or not, some people find efficiency fun. It's just not helpful.

 

anyways rant over

Edited August 24 by Kaika

[Seed22]

22 hours ago, Without_Pause said:

The issue isn't explaining water being wet. It is far more infamously used in things like 'Not that I'm a racist, BUT (says something racist)' Sometimes you need to be a dick. Be a dick. Don't apologize for it. See pet peeve 'Sorry not sorry.' 😀 Note, don't be a racist. #CaptainObvious

No surprise Paragon Falcon thumbed that down. Telling on yourself a lil there pal.

 

I’m curious, what part did you disagree with? Or did the example offend you 😂

Edited August 24 by Seed22

[Seed22]

21 hours ago, ZemX said:

 

The complaint here is a generalization, to be sure, but it doesn't come from nowhere.  I've seen plenty of people start threads asking for "what to play?" opinions about powers, powersets, and ATs, and then they get some variation of the "You have 1000 slots.  Use them!" response.   Which to me just reads as a polite "fuck you" since it's specifically taking the time to write a whole post that DOESN'T answer the OP's question and at the same time kind of chides them even for asking instead of just playing and seeing for themselves.  It's not like anybody is unaware that they can play the game and judge for themselves, so pointing this out (and ONLY pointing that out) is probably more of a dick move than the person doing it realizes.

 

As long as you're not doing that, you're not being unhelpful.

 

To be clear, not saying there's anything wrong with reminding people of the freedom they have with the 1000 slots and all as long as your reply contains more than just that.  And for the most part, the folks replying to this thread have given more complete answers than just "try it yourself, bucko!"   But it IS a thing that happens sometimes, so I can also see how someone might develop a frustration over this type of responder.

This is why I also urge people away from getting advice from gen chat or help or even these very forums in general. 
 

This answer is too often given with no followup and/or build with at least some justification behind their choices and beliefs about performance.

 

 

[Erratic1]

5 hours ago, Waljoricar said:

This is a really interesting factor I hadn't considered. Being someone that has never actually altered difficulty or team size, it never occurred to me that the thresholds had been increased in HC. Realising that many of the perspectives on powerset efficacy are completely outside of the scope of what the OG came could offer is enlightening.

 

Let me cool this line of thinking a bit....

 

Among my last characters before Live was shut down was a KM/Shield scrapper. I played him on Live, without benefit of IOs because IOs were hideously expensive in the context of plenty of other players who were similarly equipped. Plainly KM IS AN UNDERPERFORMING POWERSET. PERIOD.

 

Sure, it might perform with IOs better than say Claws without (not sure that is actually true but take it as true for discussion). But with equal investment of resources into the character, KM will be behind most other sets in most situations.

 

Can you solo with it just fine? Sure, you can. But that is why I posted my previous post explaining where it falls down--when you are doing any teamwork. Someone came along later and explained in paragraph what said in a sentence, but that was just expounding on all the detail.

 

I get that some things are labors of love. Got a few characters who are just such. But if you are concerned about KM underperforming, I assure you it does.

 

And to be sure, that one time was not my only experience. I have returned to the KM well at least three more times. It continues to underperform.

Edited August 24 by Erratic1

[ZemX]

1 hour ago, Seed22 said:

This is why I also urge people away from getting advice from gen chat or help or even these very forums in general. 

 

Well I don't, so not sure why you quoted my post.  That's not what I was saying.  I am saying SOME people will offer this kind of unhelpful post.  Most won't.  People post builds and discuss build strategies all over these forums too.

[Seed22]

9 minutes ago, ZemX said:

 

Well I don't, so not sure why you quoted my post.  That's not what I was saying.  I am saying SOME people will offer this kind of unhelpful post.  Most won't.  People post builds and discuss build strategies all over these forums too.

Not directed at you! 
 

Was just using your quote to segway that in. The forums isn’t always clear. If anything I think I was agreeing with you? 
 

**As an aside, I want to add this tidbit in for new folks. And this may sound harsh, I’m truly not trying to be that but I am blunt. The best builders are on the discord. Some will drop their builds on the forums later but a lot of builds and building is done on the discord.

 

The order of build quality and advice goes: Discord>>>Forums>General/Help Chat. 
 

A helpful tip? Treat getting a build like looking at cars. If someone comes up to you and gives you a diatribe about how amazing car A is, odds are they are lying and trying to make a sell. No sales here obviously, and less lying, but you should be skeptical like in a car sale or what have you. 
 

If someone gives you what sounds like a used car salesman pitch about how great their build is and they don’t have video proof to back it or it reads like an aforementioned sales pitch? Be wary. 
 

A lot of builds work in 99.9% of content so its not like they’re trying to mislead you(usually). Just be mindful and very clearly state what you’re looking for in a build and for what content(this is very important)

Edited August 24 by Seed22

[kelika2]

11 hours ago, Waljoricar said:

Poison on masterminds does sound absolutely awful though.

it is.  between being able to miss, a small radius on the aoe debuffs, half potency on the splash from maintarget and lackluster heal it is so bad.

and nox gas for masterminds?  it shuts off after a time and goes on a recharge

 

only time i had fun with poison was a pistol/poison corr.  even then it was mostly spitting -resist at enemies and shooting

[Snarky]

On 8/23/2024 at 8:53 AM, Without_Pause said:

The issue isn't explaining water being wet. It is far more infamously used in things like 'Not that I'm a racist, BUT (says something racist)' Sometimes you need to be a dick. Be a dick. Don't apologize for it. See pet peeve 'Sorry not sorry.' 😀 Note, don't be a racist. #CaptainObvious

I’m not a racist. I despise almost all humanity irregardless of race.  And am inspired by a very few, also without regard to their race.  I am inspired by achievement, brilliance, and the indomitable spirit. Which can be exhibited by any man or woman from any culture.  Then you get the F-ers in traffic trying to drive into you all day and look back to the joyous days of pandemic bare freeways….   A person can be great.  People suck.  All people.  

[Luminara]

39 minutes ago, Snarky said:

People suck.

 

Vampires swallow.

[battlewraith]

There was a time when KM was amazing in zone pvp. It had two ranged attacks that were useful and then that big whirling jazz hands attack did massive damage because that ridiculous animation time factored into how hard it hit. There was a reason to bring a scrapper rather than a blaster, stalker or some other damage toon.

Pixels were crushed, kills were stolen, and there was crying. Lots of crying.

 

It flew too close to the sun. It's current level of mediocrity is spiritual penance for that time of high performance. And that COH development follows the Japanese maxim "the nail that sticks out will be hammered flat." It's not good enough or bad enough to merit attention.

[Triumphant]

14 hours ago, Snarky said:

I’m not a racist. I despise almost all humanity irregardless of race.  And am inspired by a very few, also without regard to their race.  I am inspired by achievement, brilliance, and the indomitable spirit. Which can be exhibited by any man or woman from any culture.  Then you get the F-ers in traffic trying to drive into you all day and look back to the joyous days of pandemic bare freeways….   A person can be great.  People suck.  All people.  

Ah, a fellow misanthrope.  I knew there was a reason I like you.  😄

[Indystruck]

14 hours ago, Triumphant said:

Ah, a fellow misanthrope.  I knew there was a reason I like you.  😄

 

amateur

[Sanguinesun]

On 8/21/2024 at 5:06 AM, Waljoricar said:

 

 

Now, for me, concept is king, always.

 

 

 

Then if this is your basis for character building, anything is ok. You're attempting to blur between statistics regarding min/max performance and your subjective based wants regarding concepts.

 

If you want to play anything, do so.  Just accept that not every build of ever AT is going to be variably effective be it on a team or solo, however at the very least on teams, there is a better chance to mitigate(as that was part of the original game development design) combinations that are less effective than others. Expectations regarding soloing then must accept set shortcoming and it is the user's responsibility to find ways around them.

 

This is also not covering of course additional variables within choices such as enhancements, power choices in the sets, use of boosters, what mob groups you're fighting which may be strong or weak against your set combo etc.

 

Point all being.  If you want to min/max, then pick well cited min/max'd sets. If you want to build by concept, then do what floats your boat as if its in the game, you can build it and get it to 50.  But if you attempt to try to blur the lines between the two, then you're likely to find yourself frustrated.  

 

These sorts of threads crop up every so often over the years and the results remain the same.  Take that for what its worth too in the context of things...