"I Need Healing" - A Beginner's Guide to Defenders

[Auroxis]

In terms of "how will I do at the end of the road?", I'd break it down as follows:

 

• Tier One (sets that have a complete toolkit and often can be broadly applied to any other primary/secondary set): Dark Miasma/Affinity, Kinetics, Nature Affinity, Radiation Emission, Time Manipulation
  
• Tier Two (sets that have strong components but lack some critical features): Cold Domination, Storm Summoning, Thermal Radiation
  
• Tier Three (set that have crippling flaws, dysfunctional mechanics or aren’t as good at their specialty as better overall sets): Empathy, Force Field, Sonic Resonance, Traps, Trick Arrow
  

 

 

 

Dark Miasma's toolkit might seem complete, but it's a very reactive type of set with no buffs that let your team go wild in a large area. Same for Rad, which is why they're best on Controllers/Corrs since they get CC's and AoE DPS to help with that part of the game.

 

Kinetics is definitely not Tier One judging by your standards since it lacks critical features like heavy defensive buffs/debuffs. Works best on Controllers since CC's help cover that weakness.

 

Empathy's only flaw is offense in AV fights, so putting it together in tier three with sets that have multiple issues doesn't really fit. IMO it's Tier Two at the very least, Tier One if you couple it with Sonic Attack. For Defenders at least.

 

So basically I'd revise your list for Defenders, since it seems to cover how powersets perform on other AT's as well (which has a lot more variables).

 

My list for Defender would be, assuming all go Sonic Attack:

 

Tier One: Dark Miasma, Empathy, Thermal Radiation, Time Manipulation, Nature Affinity

Tier Two: Cold Domination, Kinetics, Radiation Emission, Poison, Pain Domination

Tier Three: Force Field, Traps, Trick Arrow, Sonic Resonance, Storm Summoning

[Shadewe]

 

My list for Defender would be, assuming all go Sonic Attack:

 

Tier One: Dark Miasma, Empathy, Thermal Radiation, Time Manipulation, Nature Affinity

Tier Two: Cold Domination, Kinetics, Radiation Emission, Poison, Pain Domination

Tier Three: Force Field, Traps, Trick Arrow, Sonic Resonance, Storm Summoning

 

Shadewe steps up to the podium, adjusts some papers, clears her throat, and looks at her audience with a calm, confident look of determination...

 

I'd like to take a moment to call to attention what I feel is the misunderstood nature of Trick Arrows.

 

I have seen now two people claim that it is "flawed", "broken", "tier 3"; I would like to say that I feel that this could not be further from the truth. Trick arrows does one thing, and one thing only; it debuffs. Dark miasma debuffs, but it also heals. Radiation debuffs, but it also resurrects. Trick Arrows does not heal, it does not buff, it does not resurrect; it debuffs, and it does it very very well.

 

Right out of the gates you have flash arrow. As soon as you start playing, you can neuter your enemies ability to hit anything, making the prized "healer" nigh-useless. Right around the corner is glue; if you don't think glue is useful, ask your blaster and sentinel friends if it's useful having 10+ people all in one tight little bundle that can't move, and then watch as your capstone AoE goes to town on some unsuspecting people.

 

You might then say, "But Shadewe, what about big nasty bosses, elites, AV's and GM's? You don't have -regen as well as some other skills, you can't possibly do anything useful!" Nay I say, your usefulness is just beginning!

 

First off is your bread and butter, EMP arrow. EMP a targeted AoE, not PBAoE (safety first!) to both hold nearby minions and -regen the AV, which will buy you a little time while your acid arrow and disruption arrow get added on (oh, the debuffs!), making the offending target as soft as a marshmallow. By then, your precious DPSers and tank should have things firmly under control, and the day is saved.

 

You might then say, "But Shadewe, Trick Arrows can't do everything, thus it must be bad!" Nay I say, for they whom specialize at everything specialize at nothing.

 

Yes, there are sets that have more options than trick arrows; I'd argue that ALL primaries have at least as many options as Trick Arrows, for Trick Arrows does only one thing, but it does it very, very well; it debuffs. While others will argue that Trick Arrows is Tier 3 because it does not have multiple options, I counter that it is Tier 1 as its focus is unparalleled.

 

To further add, Trick Arrows is also the only (as far as I know) power set that gives you extra tricks up your sleeve! Do you like your Fulcrum Shift? One Oil Slick, divided a dozen times or so, and you have targets galore! Do you like extra damage? One Oil Slick with a fireball and you have damage galore! It even acts like a mini-dominatrix, mini-dominator, with Ice arrow and EMP keeping things nice and safe for your group so a silly empath doesn't have to!

 

I am not expecting this message to sway the masses; keep your Time, Empath, Dark Miasma, your Nature and Thermal! I send this message out to those whom keep an open mind that there is a better way! There are options out there besides "you must have healing in your group" (which, if I remember correctly, was the original point of this thread to begin with)!

 

If you're watching this thread and feel afraid to try Trick Arrows because others label it Tier 3, I will stand up and proudly say that I am playing Trick Arrows and that I love Trick Arrows! If you want to follow the crowd, your Empath or Time defender awaits. If you want to be different, to have fun, and to bring justice/terror to the world, a Trick Arrows build might be just what you're looking for!

 

Shadewe collects herself, nods to the crowd, and steps down from podium. She doesn't know if anyone will hear her words, but if even just one person might break out of their shell and try TA, then it will be worth it...

 

(edit: grammar)

[Hjarki]

I have seen now two people claim that it is "flawed", "broken", "tier 3"; I would like to say that I feel that this could not be further from the truth. Trick arrows does one thing, and one thing only; it debuffs. Dark miasma debuffs, but it also heals. Radiation debuffs, but it also resurrects. Trick Arrows does not heal, it does not buff, it does not resurrect; it debuffs, and it does it very very well.

 

Except it doesn't. The problem with Trick Arrow has never been thematic - it's been numeric. Trick Arrow debuffs are simply smaller than what other sets deliver. So why play Trick Arrow when you could play Nature, Poison, Cold, Radiation or Dark - all of which bring the same (or better) debuffing while also bringing a significantly broader toolkit?

 

The last three powers of Cold are arguably better than the entirety of the Trick Arrow toolkit - you get a lot more (effective) -regen, -resist and -damage out of them.

 

Right out of the gates you have flash arrow. As soon as you start playing, you can neuter your enemies ability to hit anything, making the prized "healer" nigh-useless.

 

Again, numeric problems. A -6.25% to-hit debuff is really weak for a Defender. Contrast with abilities like Fearsome Stare or Spore Cloud which have triple that value.

 

Right around the corner is glue; if you don't think glue is useful, ask your blaster and sentinel friends if it's useful having 10+ people all in one tight little bundle that can't move, and then watch as your capstone AoE goes to town on some unsuspecting people.

 

Glue Arrow is almost straight-up worse than Time Distortion.

 

First off is your bread and butter, EMP arrow. EMP a targeted AoE, not PBAoE (safety first!) to both hold nearby minions and -regen the AV, which will buy you a little time while your acid arrow and disruption arrow get added on (oh, the debuffs!), making the offending target as soft as a marshmallow. By then, your precious DPSers and tank should have things firmly under control, and the day is saved.

 

On a 6 minute recharge that can't come close to being made perma. The fact that what you consider the crowning glory of the set is basically a rehash of a Radiation Emission ability that many players don't even take should speak volumes here.

 

I am not expecting this message to sway the masses; keep your Time, Empath, Dark Miasma, your Nature and Thermal! I send this message out to those whom keep an open mind that there is a better way! There are options out there besides "you must have healing in your group" (which, if I remember correctly, was the original point of this thread to begin with)!

 

The reason for the "you must have healing in your group" message is that if you don't bring the healing, someone else has to - and that generally means you can't fit into the 'support guy' slot. Certainly, on many teams you'll have a plethora of choices healing-wise. But when you're on a team where the only Defender is you, you need to point out that they need to bring another support AT.

 

Trick Arrow gives up an enormous amount to be a pure debuff set, but the tradeoff simply isn't worth it because most of its debuffs are weaker variants of what other power sets get. I can understand people wanting to play an underutilized power set and enjoying it, but let's be realistic about what it actually brings to the table.

 

Dark Miasma's toolkit might seem complete, but it's a very reactive type of set with no buffs that let your team go wild in a large area. Same for Rad, which is why they're best on Controllers/Corrs since they get CC's and AoE DPS to help with that part of the game.

 

I'd agree Dark works better as a secondary. On a Corruptor, you don't really lose much in terms of critical features (Tar Patch is essentially the same, the control elements are largely unchanged). Dark Affinity on a Controller is an amazing set - losing Fearsome Stare isn't great, but the +resist/+defense buffs are fantastic.

 

However, even on a Defender, it remains a very strong set. While it has no buffs to let your team run wild, those buffs are rarely as useful as you're making them out to be - people almost never 'gather for...' long duration buffs and short duration buffs don't last long enough. Most buffs provided by support sets also don't remain useful at higher levels and people start capping/soft-capping their abilities via IO sets and incarnate.

 

Where I think Dark truly shines is that, unlike many sets, it enables the Defender to operate independently. On the 'team gone wild' map you're describing, basically what you've ended up with is a buffbot who needs to be revisited every two minutes because they can't operate very effectively alone.

 

Kinetics is definitely not Tier One judging by your standards since it lacks critical features like heavy defensive buffs/debuffs. Works best on Controllers since CC's help cover that weakness.

 

Again, heavy defensive buffs are mostly meaningless at the end of the day. They're great in the early levels when players are still developing, but in later levels pretty much the only buff people really need is Fulcrum Shift.

 

Kinetics also has significant -damage debuffing between Siphon Power and Fulcrum Shift. And, frankly, -damage debuffing tends to end up being the only one that's important because all the others are resisted so heavily.

 

Empathy's only flaw is offense in AV fights, so putting it together in tier three with sets that have multiple issues doesn't really fit. IMO it's Tier Two at the very least, Tier One if you couple it with Sonic Attack. For Defenders at least.

 

Empathy is not a damage multiplier, which is the crux of the problem. I think you're looking at a lot of these sets from a relatively low-end perspective. At higher levels, most of your allies will already have the features you think are important. What they need from you is a way to magnify the damage they do, not stay alive - that's the justification for bringing you on the team.

 

I think you can see this in game. People start out with those Tier Three sets and they think "this is the greatest ever" - and, as they level up, it starts becoming less great. They increasingly find the bulk of their power set is superfluous because it gives other players benefits they simply don't need. That's why the early levels tend to be packed with Force Field or Empathy, but the later levels are all those 'tier one' sets I was talking about.

[Adeon Hawkwood]

I think you can see this in game. People start out with those Tier Three sets and they think "this is the greatest ever" - and, as they level up, it starts becoming less great. They increasingly find the bulk of their power set is superfluous because it gives other players benefits they simply don't need. That's why the early levels tend to be packed with Force Field or Empathy, but the later levels are all those 'tier one' sets I was talking about.

^This.

 

Early and mid game I love sets like Empathy and Force Field but for high level play give me sets like Dark, Time, Radiation, Cold or Kinetics

 

As a side note, I would disagree with you slightly in regards to Traps. While I agree that in general Time is a better version of Traps, Traps is still a very strong set only really held back by it's reliance on global recharge. A high recharge IO build makes a Traps Defender a force to be reckoned with.

[Auroxis]

 

Again, heavy defensive buffs are mostly meaningless at the end of the day. They're great in the early levels when players are still developing, but in later levels pretty much the only buff people really need is Fulcrum Shift.

 

Kinetics also has significant -damage debuffing between Siphon Power and Fulcrum Shift. And, frankly, -damage debuffing tends to end up being the only one that's important because all the others are resisted so heavily.

 

In my experience, that magical "everyone's maxed out anyway, defensive buffs and heals suck" scenario is a rare occurrence even at the endgame, and in that case you're better off rolling a corr if you value defensive buffs that little.

 

Empathy is not a damage multiplier, which is the crux of the problem. I think you're looking at a lot of these sets from a relatively low-end perspective. At higher levels, most of your allies will already have the features you think are important. What they need from you is a way to magnify the damage they do, not stay alive - that's the justification for bringing you on the team.

 

Adrenalin Boost and Fortitude - "Am I a joke to you?"

 

You're really valuing those resistance debuffs a bit too much, remember Sonic Attack exists.

[RussHood]

Can anyone explain why cold is tier 2 when the only missing components are healing and damage buffs(which is made up for with def for survival, and -res, which is way more valuable IMHO)? 

My cold/sonic has had some of the fastest TF runs out of any of my chars, and it feels like most people just gloss over the set completely for more 'flashy' or thematic sets

[Auroxis]

Can anyone explain why cold is tier 2 when the only missing components are healing and damage buffs(which is made up for with def for survival, and -res, which is way more valuable IMHO)? 

My cold/sonic has had some of the fastest TF runs out of any of my chars, and it feels like most people just gloss over the set completely for more 'flashy' or thematic sets

 

If your playstyle revolves around playing with maxed out characters trying to get TF speedrun records, Cold/Sonic is definitely a great choice since it's an AV debuffing specialist. When you look at other content however like teaming with randoms for +4 ITF's, doing difficult incarnate trials, exemplaring down, doing Master Of TF runs, other sets have a more compelling kit IMO.

 

Dealing with hard targets is definitely an integral part of the game though, which is why I only rate Empathy in tier 1 on Defender if it's paired with Sonic Attack.

[Arcstone]

Why wasn't titan weapons listed in the OP? was that set added recently? and if so, where does it stack up vs the rest of the offensive skills?

[Sulhythal]

Why wasn't titan weapons listed in the OP? was that set added recently? and if so, where does it stack up vs the rest of the offensive skills?

 

Titan Weapons...for Defenders?  did I miss something?

[Arcstone]

Ignore me, I was confusing tanker with defender ::)

[Sulhythal]

Ignore me, I was confusing tanker with defender ::)

 

I kind of want this thing now >.>  Titan Weapon/Kinetics

[Adeon Hawkwood]

Ignore me, I was confusing tanker with defender ::)

Well Time/Elec makes a good Tankfender.

[Harrow]

Ignore me, I was confusing tanker with defender ::)

 

I kind of want this thing now >.>  Titan Weapon/Kinetics

 

I'd love a "melee support" archetype. Fill in that "Paladin" sort of niche, y'know?

[Hjarki]

I'd love a "melee support" archetype. Fill in that "Paladin" sort of niche, y'know?

 

This is really what Corruptors should have been - Melee primary, support secondary. So you could play your Titan Weapons/Kinetics Corruptor. Unfortunately, it was not to be.

[SmalltalkJava]

In terms of "how will I do at the end of the road?", I'd break it down as follows:

 

• Tier One (sets that have a complete toolkit and often can be broadly applied to any other primary/secondary set): Dark Miasma/Affinity, Kinetics, Nature Affinity, Radiation Emission, Time Manipulation
  
• Tier Two (sets that have strong components but lack some critical features): Cold Domination, Storm Summoning, Thermal Radiation
  
• Tier Three (set that have crippling flaws, dysfunctional mechanics or aren’t as good at their specialty as better overall sets): Empathy, Force Field, Sonic Resonance, Traps, Trick Arrow
  

Note that you can break these into ‘Defender’ and ‘Corruptor’ favored sets based on whether their primary features are more helpful in a primary or secondary set. The more a set relies on non-scaling factors like +recharge, -regen or location AoE, the more it makes sense to take it as a secondary. A set that significantly augments damage (via -resist or +damage) with scaling powers will generally make more sense as a Defender, except if you’re in danger of hitting the +damage cap. Sets that take up large amounts of activation time tend to favor neither but instead work well with Controllers.

 

You can also consider the larger game. For example, I’d argue that Kinetics isn’t a particularly good set for either Corruptors or Defenders because takes too much time away from their Blast sets and requires significant risk to apply its buffs. On the other hand, it works wonderfully for certain Controller builds - which means that if you have a Kinetics on your team, you probably want it to be a Controller.

 

For Blast sets, I break them down into ‘Defender’ and ‘Corruptor’ sets:

Defenders: Beam Rifle, Sonic Blast.

Corruptors: Fire Blast, Ice Blast, Water Blast.

 

This is really a matter of applying two rules:

 

• Defenders look for ancillary features in their blast sets since damage isn't a high priority for them.
   
  
• Corruptors highly prioritize Rain effects due to the way Scourge works. That's why the Ice and Water ultimates are so much better than Inferno.
   
  

Everything else I would consider ‘flavor’ in the sense that while they may be enjoyable sets, you’re unlikely to pick them for an optimized character.

 

Interesting analysis.  How would you tier and break these down in regards to MasterMinds?

[Hjarki]

Interesting analysis.  How would you tier and break these down in regards to MasterMinds?

 

The 'tiers' were more about the general power/versatility of the set rather than specific applicability to any one archetype.

 

In general, the more pet-based your build becomes, the more it favors multi-target healing and buffing - and the less it favors tools like multi-target debuffs - because you want abilities that travel with your pets rather than travel with you (obviously, this doesn't apply if your pets are non-buffable like Illusion's Phantom Army). I don't play Masterminds all that much, so I don't know the exact numeric breakdowns on all of the sets.

 

I'm also not sure I'd recommend Mastermind as an archetype at level 50. If you're just planning to solo, they're not bad. However, in team/league-based content, you run afoul of several problems:

- The well-known blocking effect where the pets interfere with actual players trying to do their job by creating a impassable wall of pets.

- Fights that require exercising a degree of control (think not killing protesters during TPN) tend to preclude the use of Mastermind pets (and thus render Masterminds almost worthless).

- Virtually all high-end Task Forces require bypassing enemies, which generally means you need to put away the pets.

- It's often difficult to make pets durable enough to operate usefully in AV/GM fights.

[GritIron]

+1 Inf;uence for you sir on a well written breakdown.

[Shoulung]

I’m curious as to which TFs require bypassing enemies? I’m familiar with Superdouche that wants to speed through everything and if you’re not super tanky/stealthy then you suxxors, but I can’t think of any where it’s an actual requirement. I’m annoyed with people thinking that the only way to enjoy this game at breakneck speed; it’s akin to going to a buffet and trying to cram five plates of food down your throat in ten minutes because it’s efficient, rather than enjoying what you’re ingesting. 

Also, when soloing the TF AVs on my MM, it’s more of an issue of doing enough damage than keeping my pets alive. The wall blocking point is really a non issue, but I probably wouldn’t enjoy taking my MM through the TPN scenario. Passive pets can still act kind of wonky.

[VV]

On 4/30/2019 at 1:36 PM, Overclock said:

"Looking for Healer"

Great explanations! Just a quick note that when I see this, I will sometimes remember to refer them to the P2W vendor where there are a couple of self-healing devices they can buy. That way your Defender can get back to the job of making everything go squish.

[Doomguide2005]

*looks at tier 3 rating for empathy*  *shrug*

 

I think sometimes these tier ratings are a little like arguing about how high the rubble will bounce when whatever AT is being discussed.  Useful perhaps for highlighting differences between sets but less useful when discussing how capable the set is over all within the game itself.

[Darkir]

20 hours ago, Doomguide2005 said:

*looks at tier 3 rating for empathy*  *shrug*

 

I think sometimes these tier ratings are a little like arguing about how high the rubble will bounce when whatever AT is being discussed.  Useful perhaps for highlighting differences between sets but less useful when discussing how capable the set is over all within the game itself.

Its hard to rate empathy as tier one when you have a things like a time defenders using clarion+power boost+farsight to fully softcap your entire team and ratcheting up their recharge with chronoshift. As Auroxis has mentioned it is quite good when paired with sonic blast though. I'd generally rate it tier 2 myself and reserve tier three for more trouble prone sets, but I'm not the author. /shrug

[Doomguide2005]

Well its been a while since I've worked with incarnate powers so things may have changed but essentially that's saying Farsight is awesome (which it is as I recall) because Clarion+Power Boost etc.  is something the Empath could also do.  In any case my 'rant' doesn't necessarily disagree with saying a pure buff set is less needed by leagues particularly when comprised by very high end builds.  It's more about the point that arguing which jet fighter is the most dominant when the other side is flying biplanes is not terrible useful.  

Edited October 27, 2019 by Doomguide2005
Typo

[Bopper]

50 minutes ago, Doomguide2005 said:

Farsight is awesome (which it is as I recall) because Clarion+Power Boost etc

Farsight by itself is an awesome power. Clarion+Power Boost simply puts it in another stratosphere. A permanent team buff granting +50% defense to everything and +50% to hit buff. Empaths can certainly do some great things with the same combo, but not quite to that level as farsight lasts 120s, while most of empath's team buffs last 90s.

[Linea]

Just be warned, if you use the PBU and/or Clarion Radial +Special, if you recast Farsight without those buffs, you'll overwrite the +50defense bubble with a +20defense one, losing that nice boost.  With PBU that's less of an issue as it can recharge must faster, but with Clarion it means both you and your team need to have (nearly) PERFECT buffing discipline. aka: It's not easy, but the rewards are well worth it.

 

[Ankhammon]

On 6/13/2019 at 9:23 AM, Shadewe said:

 

I'm curious, what's the "crippling flaw" of trick arrows?

Mostly a lack of experience. It has a large learning curve and you will want most or all of the "tricks".

 

TA has great utility all around and it can add heaps of damage that many other defender sets lack.

 

Look for any of my posts on TA and you will see it can be a very gifted set particularly when paired with /Sonic or BR (single target hunter with decent aoe) or /dark (better prot and more control options).

 

The key to TA, and lots of others, is getting PB for extra ordinary excellence.