Homogenation - Should all powersets be the same numbers wise?

[Troo]

Sometimes it appears there is an large effort to make things the same.

 

Do similar powers have to perform the same?
Do powersets across ATs have the same function and order?

Does standardization equal boring? 

 

[Snarky]

11 minutes ago, Troo said:

Sometimes it appears there is an large effort to make things the same.

 

Do similar powers have to perform the same?
Do powersets across ATs have the same function and order?

Does standardization equal boring? 

 

Everything is conditional.  In a perfect world a blast AoE with the same footprint (base) same damage and same cast time should equalize across sets.  That is just fair.  But the game is convoluted and creative and messy.  More often than not the powers cannot be compared exactly.  Then a lot can. And some are comparable on the surface… until you realize they are different enough that it does not work.  Take Blaster Nukes as an example.  Look through them at cast times, area, damage, ranged or pbaoe.  A very simple tier 9 comparison becomes quite wild.   
 

yes, things should be fair.  But Tanks should not be king of melee dps.  And there ya go. 

[Yomo Kimyata]

Sets don’t need to be homogenized across ATs, but when people (minmaxxers) gravitate towards specific sets, that should be a warning sign.  I also doubt the HC developers have the data or the inclination to test out their changes on a fairness basis, so it will be what will be.  Also, fairness changes over time.  Sets like Dark Melee and Kinetic Melee were designed as trade off sets — a little less damage, a little more protection.  Protection is no longer relevant, and the moar damage mob has spoken.  

[MoonSheep]

yes

 

as described in a recent thread by another player, all alts by page 30 will be converted into a perfectly uniform, grey cube

 

you may play your hero cube through a number of challenges and click on your uniform cube powers T1-9. each T1 deals 10 damage up to T9 which deals 90 damage base

 

this is the ultimate final form for perfect balance

[Erratic1]

Foot Stomp, given its area and number of targets, does more damage than it should....

 

...it is also the only damaging AoE in its powerset.

 

No, all powerset powers solid not be identical.

[Aracknight]

2 hours ago, Troo said:

Sometimes it appears there is an large effort to make things the same.

 

Do similar powers have to perform the same?
Do powersets across ATs have the same function and order?

Does standardization equal boring? 

 

 

Honestly, I'd prefer it if they performed all the same.  With melee, Same number of st vs cone vs aoe.  T1, T2, etc damage is the same across all sets, with the differences being damage type and additional effect.  (Martial arts does smashing and stun, ice does cold and slow, fire does fire and fire dot, etc).  Then you could tune the differences between archetypes with the non damaging powers.  Example, stalkers get placate, scrappers get confront, tanks get taunt, and brutes get ...nerfed probably.  Kidding!  But maybe Brutes could get something different that suits them better.  Same with build up.  It could do to hit plus damage/fear mag and duration on stalker, to hit plus damage/whatever on scrapper, to hit plus damage/ mez duration/magnitude on tanks, hell why not give rage to all brute sets to make the at different in that way instead of confining it to super strength alone.

 

But I'm a numbery spreadsheet-fu kind of guy at heart.  Your mileage and preference may vary.

[Forager]

47 minutes ago, MoonSheep said:

yes

 

as described in a recent thread by another player, all alts by page 30 will be converted into a perfectly uniform, grey cube

 

you may play your hero cube through a number of challenges and click on your uniform cube powers T1-9. each T1 deals 10 damage up to T9 which deals 90 damage base

 

this is the ultimate final form for perfect balance

 

I heard they were going to let you pick the color of your cube, but found out that brown was harder to see during pvp on some maps.

[biostem]

2 hours ago, Troo said:

Do similar powers have to perform the same?
Do powersets across ATs have the same function and order?

Does standardization equal boring? 

The problem, IMHO, is figuring out how much the various special/side effects are "worth", in terms of how much less damage, recharge, cast time, or other such factors, powers should have, vs some idealized baseline;  If a fireball does X damage, how much less should ball lightning deal in exchange for its added end drain and -recovery effects?  I think this is epitomized by psi melee, where the insight mechanic is not predictable in when or how you gain the buff, and then you get locked out of the buff for a period of time, all without the user having  a say...

[Crysis]

39 minutes ago, Erratic1 said:

Foot Stomp, given its area and number of targets, does more damage than it should....

 

...it is also the only damaging AoE in its powerset.

 

No, all powerset powers solid not be identical.

 

The challenge with this (just using this as one of many examples) is that you have to balance any power across a great number of factors:

 

1) How does this particular power perform relative to all other powers within the same set?

2) How does this particular power perform relative to its replicative powers for other AT's?

3) How does this power, and the set it belongs to, perform relative to all the secondary powersets available to each AT that has access to that power?

4) How does this power, when coupled with other powers from secondaries/pools, perform relative to all other AT's with access to that same type of power couplings?

5) All the above but for solo purposes against all available enemy types/powers?

6) All the above when combined with players tuned with duplicative or augmentative powersets?

 

...and on and on.

 

Honestly, the gray cube of sameness is likely the only true way to achieve total balance in this game.  And at that point, it's no longer a game but just an active chat program.  

[TheMoneyMaker]

The problem with homogenization is that two blast powers don't function the same even if they're the same level/tier within an archetype.

 

Dark Blast grants a -ToHit penalty to the target in addition to damage. Is that worth the same as a Neutrino Bolt's -DEF? Flares doesn't even have a secondary effect, and others may  animate and/or recharge faster. It's a big, complicated, messy formula to determine what balances with other similar things. Personally, I like it when sets have different effects and don't map out identically but with swapped damage types. Lots of blast sets get Aim, but no Aim in Assault Rifle and I'm okay with it. Ice Blast doesn't have a proper snipe attack, and it does just fine.

 

No no no.....no homogenization. Let there be differences between similar sets and make the effort to find balance despite them performing differently.

[Psyonico]

Like @Snarkysaid, it’s messy.

 

just take blast sets as an example

 

if each blast set had 3 ST attacks, a Snipe, 2 cones, a TAoE, Aim, and a pbaoe nuke then the sets would be easy to balance against each other, but that would also mean that all blast sets played essentially the same and you’d lose out on quite a bit of replay value.  “Why should I run an Ice blast toon when I already have a fire blast toon and the only difference is Fire does a DoT and ice has -recharge”

 

It would get boring really fast.

 

which is why the sets aren’t identical, and since they’re not identical it’s harder to balance between sets.

[Major_Decoy]

10 minutes ago, Psyonico said:

 “Why should I run an Ice blast toon when I already have a fire blast toon and the only difference is Fire does a DoT and ice has -recharge”

This seems like the weirdest game to have this kind of complaint about. I've made two characters on the same archetypes with the same power sets just because you can make drastically different builds just by skipping certain powers, taking different power pools, slotting different sets, etc.

 

Even if you keep all the powers and slotting identical, there are people who ran through praetoria as kind of a mirror of their primal characters.

 

Edit: I suppose it's different approaches for different people, but the character that gets created will play the same content differently even if it has the same power sets.

Edited Monday at 10:16 PM by Major_Decoy

[Greycat]

No, they should not. 

[Erratic1]

1 hour ago, Crysis said:

 

The challenge with this (just using this as one of many examples) is that you have to balance any power across a great number of factors:

 

1) How does this particular power perform relative to all other powers within the same set?

2) How does this particular power perform relative to its replicative powers for other AT's?

3) How does this power, and the set it belongs to, perform relative to all the secondary powersets available to each AT that has access to that power?

4) How does this power, when coupled with other powers from secondaries/pools, perform relative to all other AT's with access to that same type of power couplings?

5) All the above but for solo purposes against all available enemy types/powers?

6) All the above when combined with players tuned with duplicative or augmentative powersets?

 

...and on and on.

 

Honestly, the gray cube of sameness is likely the only true way to achieve total balance in this game.  And at that point, it's no longer a game but just an active chat program.  

 

It is a challenge. But hey, so was painting the ceiling of the Sistine Chapel. You get more spectacular results with complexity than with cookie cutters sameness.

 

Did I mention Path of Exile earlier? This is the Path of Exile 2 passive skill tree:

 

 

Your starting place on it depends on your initial class. You then path through it picking up benefits with each level. And the number of mechanics addressed in the tree is staggering. This is utterly aside from equipment or skills or skill modifiers or ascendancy classes.

 

CoH is not the above, even with the IO system and Incarnates and Powerset variety. In fact, you can choose to not engage with swaths of CoH complexity and still have a good time. Yeah, the complexity it has is not likely to make every choice completely valid and balanced, but trust me, you have a far easier time messing up a Path of Exile character.

[Crysis]

2 minutes ago, Erratic1 said:

 

It is a challenge. But hey, so was painting the ceiling of the Sistine Chapel. You get more spectacular results with complexity than with cookie cutters sameness.

 

Did I mention Path of Exile earlier? This is the Path of Exile 2 passive skill tree:

 

 

Your starting place on it depends on your initial class. You then path through it picking up benefits with each level. And the number of mechanics addressed in the tree is staggering. This is utterly aside from equipment or skills or skill modifiers or ascendancy classes.

 

CoH is not the above, even with the IO system and Incarnates and Powerset variety. In fact, you can choose to not engage with swaths of CoH complexity and still have a good time. Yeah, the complexity it has is not likely to make every choice completely valid and balanced, but trust me, you have a far easier time messing up a Path of Exile character.

 

Yes I've played POE for some time.  Stayed away from POE2 because of the number of times I've utterly gimped myself pathing incorrectly in POE.  Huge time sinks.

 

I've posted elsewhere that COH was always meant to be an "introductory" MMO.  It excels at that handsomely.  I think some people get offended at that reality, thinking it's meant to be...well..."super" I guess maybe?  It's mechanics are dated by todays standards but it's one of the more approachable MMO's I can recall playing.  

 

All the powerset changes over the years, some have made certain AT's more fun to play, some haven't.  You take the good with the bad and move on to other AT's or you simply wander off to a different game entirely.  Both are viable these days since there's no subscriber fees to worry about on the upkeep, just donations.  The playerbase is a fraction of what it was during the Live days but enough to get a good string of missions with a decent sized team running.  It's not so focused of a gamestyle that you can't spend some time chatting in team, or respond to a Global help question while still taking down the critters in front of you.  It's casual, its new player friendly (for the most part) and it seems to appeal to a certain genre unlike any other game that came before or after it.  Just not enough superhero games out there, always a bit surprised by that, but it is what it is.

 

I'm thankful its not POE.  

[Andreah]

Powersets should be within a stone's throw of each other within the same role.

 

The problem we have is a few Archetypes share the same powersets in the same role. The answer there is to radically differentiate or retire one of the AT's. This endless balancing will go nowhere on its own.

[baster]

Hell, No, but if you want to see this game die faster then a new born gazela on savanna then keep pushing for homogenation to appease all you pvp min maxies 

Edited Tuesday at 12:11 AM by baster

[bAss_ackwards]

Speaking personally, powersets don't need to be balanced.

 

What they should be is viable and fun. Sometimes the viability comes from similarities, sometimes it comes from other differentiating areas the powerset excels at. Perfect balance is for games like chess. MMOs, especially this one have a ton of player expression - through build craft, costume sets, etc. Everyone faces the same challenges put forth before their heroes and villains and it's up to you on how you want to tackle it. Speaking to current beta updates I've run a few missions on the updated Regen powerset and I had a great time on my Scrapper. I'm already looking forward to the day Mids is updated and I can start messing around with a build. 😆

[Scarlet Shocker]

The only powerset that must be balanced by its nature is Symphonic, because that has scales

Edited Wednesday at 06:26 PM by Scarlet Shocker

[Neiska]

Personally, I would prefer if DPS wasn't the only metric that seems to be considered when balancing things which seems to be the case. In a game with so many ATs, Powersets, Combat mechanics, Playstyles, Enemies, Mission Type, Difficulty Level, etc etc etc, DPS is only one small piece of the pie and a great many other things seem overlooked or neglected entirely. When was the last time say, +RES buffs among powersets were balanced? +DEF Buffs among powersets? So on and so forth.

[OverkillEngine]

On 6/9/2025 at 1:46 PM, Troo said:

Sometimes it appears there is an large effort to make things the same.

 

Do similar powers have to perform the same?
Do powersets across ATs have the same function and order?

Does standardization equal boring? 

 

They don't have to be exactly the same, but they also should not be wildly different without a very good reason.

[MTeague]

a)  No, powersets do not need to be homogeneous.

b)  But I disagree that they're being made that way. I do think the devs are trying to make them comparable in effectivness, which is a different thing. 

 

Electric Blast saps. Energy Blast is the ragdoller. Ice Blast has slows. Fire has DoTs. Dark has -hit, etc. 

Empathy and Dark Miasma both offer support, and wildly different means to achieve it. 

Mind Control and Fire Control both offer control, and strongly different ways to acheive it. 

Battle Axe vs War Mace?  OK, those are closer. But they always were pretty close, going back the Eldar Days. 

 

Are all sets comparable to each other today? No. Sonic Resonance is nearly useless for a solo Defender or Corruptor, vs say, something like Trick Arrow, or Rad Emission. Should every set be able to solo well, even on Defenders? Well, I would like it if that were so, but I'm not a dev, and I'm not privy to the Dev's opinions on that question.  (Yes, I'm aware Sonic Resonance can be great for Masterminds)

 

I don't think doom and gloom is warranted, but everyone's milage is going to vary. 

 

[MTeague]

On 6/9/2025 at 8:08 PM, baster said:

Hell, No, but if you want to see this game die faster then a new born gazela on savanna then keep pushing for homogenation to appease all you pvp min maxies 

 

On Live, I used to fear going into Bloody Bay to get a Shivan Shard. I would go at 2:45 am, to try to minimize the chances of being ganked. 

On Homecoming, I'll enter any day, regardless of time.  I don't give it a second thought, and I'm genuinely surprised on the rare occasions I see another soul in the zone at all. So far, each time, they've been another person looking for the Shivan Shard quest. 

 

Now I do play on Everlasting these days, and maybe on Indomitable or something the story is quite different. 

But I often forget anyone pvp's in this game at all. 

[shortguy on indom]

 

• HOMOGENATION FOR PLAYERS = NO
• HOMOGENATION OF ENEMIES = YES, PROBABLY.

[Psyonico]

Just now, shortguy on indom said:

HOMOGENATION OF ENEMIES = YES, PROBABLY.

That would get boring too, imagine if every enemy group fought exactly the same.

 

if you think certain ATs/Power sets are marginalized now, think about if they all had high S/L resist, or nemesis’ confuse protection