Wait... no Super Strength for Scrappers?

[BrandX]

On 5/23/2020 at 3:34 AM, Tantricsecrets said:

Change rage into buildup, problem solved. 

Don't even need to do that.  Just change Rage's numbers to be like Follow Ups.  Instead of doing a damage attack with the +DMG/+ToHit, and has a chance to miss, you click a power that gives the same amount of +DMG/+ToHit that has a damage loss or whatever new loss to make up for not being to hit checked.

 

 

 

[marcussmythe]

Rage would be fine on scrappers, as-is, and they should have it.

 

The only place where a balance problem should occur is if they increase the buff value of Rage for scrappers - IE making it a higher % on the Scrapper version than on the tank.  Typically this is the case - scrapper vs tanker buildup - but Rage has a much greater contribution, so increasing the buff value might overtune the set slightly.

 

Outside of that... if SS is fine on Tanks with a Tanks Brawl Index by comparison to other Tank sets, then changing the brawl index its running through to that if a scrapper should leave it fine compared to other scrapper sets.  Anyone who is telling you it would have to be nerfed for scrappers because it would be too good is to my mind admitting it is too good on tanks compared to other tank sets (which I do not think is the case, but I havent run them side by side)

[Sir Myshkin]

On 7/1/2020 at 10:02 AM, marcussmythe said:

Rage would be fine on scrappers, as-is, and they should have it.

Hard Disagree.

 

On 7/1/2020 at 10:02 AM, marcussmythe said:

Outside of that... if SS is fine on Tanks with a Tanks Brawl Index by comparison to other Tank sets, then changing the brawl index its running through to that if a scrapper should leave it fine compared to other scrapper sets.  Anyone who is telling you it would have to be nerfed for scrappers because it would be too good is to my mind admitting it is too good on tanks compared to other tank sets (which I do not think is the case, but I havent run them side by side)

Super Strength is the second strongest melee set in the game behind Titan Weapons, and that margin is very thin by contrast. That power comes exclusively from Rage, with minor points in ability to heavily leverage KO Blow and Foot Stomp.

 

I'm not saying we should nerf Rage on a Scrapper. I'm saying Nerf Rage.

 

[marcussmythe]

Man, I hate it when I go all ‘Modest Proposal’ and I get called out on it.  I was trying nit to say ‘nerf rage’ out loud...

 

I anticipate the reason it hasnt been ported to scrappers is because the PTB know that its already broken, and this would make it moreso.  The reason that it remains broken on Tankers is because its such a popular set that fixing it would anger too many.

 

Ill leave how to fix rage to the people that play SS.  Once fixed, port.  Or do a fixed scrapper version, and if fix is fun for all, back-port

Edited July 4, 2020 by marcussmythe

[Sir Myshkin]

19 hours ago, marcussmythe said:

I was trying nit to say ‘nerf rage’ out loud...

Don't worry, I take full responsibility (even if they don't blame it on me) for proving why Rage is broken and needs nerfed back during the January-February Beta testing that was done looking for a potential fix.

 

Also, nerf Rage.

 

I mean it is quite obligatory of me now, I have to say it.

[Infinitum]

On 7/4/2020 at 12:52 AM, Sir Myshkin said:

Hard Disagree.

 

Super Strength is the second strongest melee set in the game behind Titan Weapons, and that margin is very thin by contrast. That power comes exclusively from Rage, with minor points in ability to heavily leverage KO Blow and Foot Stomp.

 

I'm not saying we should nerf Rage on a Scrapper. I'm saying Nerf Rage.

 

Just out of curiosity what are you basing that on?

[Neogumbercules]

I understand the balance implications of Rage on a scrapper but you can't put super strength on any character and not give them Rage. It's super strength's thing. Thematically and from a design standpoint Rage is an essential element of the powerset. It would be like taking Lightning Rod out of Elec Melee or taking Ice Slick out of Ice Control. 

 

They would have to find a way to make it work. 

[Sir Myshkin]

8 hours ago, Infinitum said:

Just out of curiosity what are you basing that on?

A lot of practical testing. Super Strength doesn't necessarily equate to quite the same clear speed as Titan Weapons because of the multitude of cones at TW's disposal, but from a raw damage perspective Foot Stomp is just as capable of doing ~200 damage per application as Whirling Smash is, followed up by an attack that dishes out ~1,000 points per hit every 6-7/s (KO Blow for SS, FT or AoD as close options in TW).

 

Everything that empowers Super Strength comes from Rage's ability to grant 160% permanent +Damage buff which exceeds the single-power granted buff of any other set. Dark Melee's Soul Drain is the closest competitor and its buff is scaled off the amount of targets it can successfully hit meaning there's always random failure to achieve full mass, and it's much harder to get "perma" status. Rage only has to get to 70/s cooldown which doesn't take much. One side effect of Dark Melee is also its lack of clear and prominent AoE, it just doesn't have the "oomph" of something like Foot Stomp in its set list.

 

Rage is so egregious that I don't even need to take any powers other than Rage, KO Blow, and Foot Stomp from Super Strength to still be a ridiculously overpowered Tanker/Brute. I can fill with Boxing and Cross Punch to gain access to a Fury of the Gladiator -Res proc (which doesn't even trigger that consistently cause it's a low-range cone) to marginally increases the insane leverage of Rage's buff for those 10 extra seconds it randomly grants.

 

If I can take one ability from a set, and fill the remainder of an entire build with pool powers, and still perform better than mid-line comp to any other set, what's that say about how aggressive that one ability is changing the dynamic of the AT?

 

1 hour ago, Neogumbercules said:

They would have to find a way to make it work. 

The only way anyone's going to give "Rage" to Scrappers is if it's nerfed into the ground, and it pains me to say it, but it'll probably never happen because every time the topic comes up in earnest, the whole of the community rages (pun intended).

[Infinitum]

1 hour ago, Sir Myshkin said:

A lot of practical testing. Super Strength doesn't necessarily equate to quite the same clear speed as Titan Weapons because of the multitude of cones at TW's disposal, but from a raw damage perspective Foot Stomp is just as capable of doing ~200 damage per application as Whirling Smash is, followed up by an attack that dishes out ~1,000 points per hit every 6-7/s (KO Blow for SS, FT or AoD as close options in TW).

 

Everything that empowers Super Strength comes from Rage's ability to grant 160% permanent +Damage buff which exceeds the single-power granted buff of any other set. Dark Melee's Soul Drain is the closest competitor and its buff is scaled off the amount of targets it can successfully hit meaning there's always random failure to achieve full mass, and it's much harder to get "perma" status. Rage only has to get to 70/s cooldown which doesn't take much. One side effect of Dark Melee is also its lack of clear and prominent AoE, it just doesn't have the "oomph" of something like Foot Stomp in its set list.

 

Rage is so egregious that I don't even need to take any powers other than Rage, KO Blow, and Foot Stomp from Super Strength to still be a ridiculously overpowered Tanker/Brute. I can fill with Boxing and Cross Punch to gain access to a Fury of the Gladiator -Res proc (which doesn't even trigger that consistently cause it's a low-range cone) to marginally increases the insane leverage of Rage's buff for those 10 extra seconds it randomly grants.

 

If I can take one ability from a set, and fill the remainder of an entire build with pool powers, and still perform better than mid-line comp to any other set, what's that say about how aggressive that one ability is changing the dynamic of the AT?

 

The only way anyone's going to give "Rage" to Scrappers is if it's nerfed into the ground, and it pains me to say it, but it'll probably never happen because every time the topic comes up in earnest, the whole of the community rages (pun intended).

How are you factoring in the damage debuff, and also the end and defense debuff from the rage crash though?

 

Thats not insignificant when you are doing all of 2 pts of damage for that long.

 

I agree that rage makes the set, but, so?  Why shouldn't it?  You have to work around 3 huge hurdles rage crash thows at you - and even more if you are greedy and run double stacked rage.  And the floored damage is something you cant work around until it expires.

 

And again in my saying its not powerful, but its not even close to being TW powerful, and you pay for the power with crashes.

[Bopper]

7 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

Thats not insignificant when you are doing all of 2 pts of damage for that long.

I know you're using hyperbole, but it's worth noting that despite rage debuffing your damage to -100000000% or whatever it is, the limit for damage debuffs is still -90%. So you'll still do 10% of your base damage if you choose to keep attacking, and utilize procs in your power. Or you can switch to temporary powers (Black Wand, Sands of Mu, etc) that are not impacted by damage buffs (and thus debuffs) to do their total damage.

[Sir Myshkin]

1 hour ago, Infinitum said:

I agree that rage makes the set, but, so?  Why shouldn't it?  You have to work around 3 huge hurdles rage crash thows at you - and even more if you are greedy and run double stacked rage.  And the floored damage is something you cant work around until it expires.

 

And again in my saying its not powerful, but its not even close to being TW powerful, and you pay for the power with crashes.

Agnostic Procs and Judgement's don't care about -Dam Debuffs. It may not be a lot of damage, but damage is still damage for 10/s sake, and Judgement hits hard enough to matter even if it's just on one target. The way it ends up balancing out is by putting the Gaussian's +BU in Rage to pop it after the crash expires and gain an additional +80% on top of 160% buff, which is enough to run 3-4 attacks with KO Blow.

 

As for the Defense Debuff... That's largely ignorable for half the sets between Brutes and Tankers when they can Resistance cap (and probably didn't have Defense to begin with). Or run a Granite build that's got so much mitigation it's just leaking out of the bedrock.

 

It's all management, and that crash is just silly.

 

nerf RAGE!

Edited July 12, 2020 by Sir Myshkin
edit: I forgot my obligatory "nerf Rage"

[Myrmidon]

35 minutes ago, Sir Myshkin said:

nerf Rage.

You forgot something.

[marcussmythe]

Its his delendam at this point. “Rage Delenda Est.”

 

Amusingly, the more I kick the tires, the funny thing about SS is that as (it looks like) its powers were built with the assumption of one-stack rage (like Brutes lower base damage scale, because Fury).  Which means that SS more than any other set I have player -wants- to go out of set for its attacks - Boxing and Cross Punch may not be world beaters - but apply double rage to them, and katie bar the door...  and lord the gloom numbers.

[Sir Myshkin]

2 hours ago, marcussmythe said:

Its his delendam at this point. “Rage Delenda Est.”

"Cato finally won the debate..."

 

Just saying.

[Infinitum]

6 hours ago, Bopper said:

I know you're using hyperbole, but it's worth noting that despite rage debuffing your damage to -100000000% or whatever it is, the limit for damage debuffs is still -90%. So you'll still do 10% of your base damage if you choose to keep attacking, and utilize procs in your power. Or you can switch to temporary powers (Black Wand, Sands of Mu, etc) that are not impacted by damage buffs (and thus debuffs) to do their total damage.

Nah, sometimes literally 2pts of damage pops up when you throw jab or haymaker.

 

And as far as temp powers go, you can't use temp powers in context of whether or not a power should be nerfed.  

 

I just take my 2 pts of damage and roll with it.

[Infinitum]

6 hours ago, Sir Myshkin said:

Agnostic Procs and Judgement's don't care about -Dam Debuffs. It may not be a lot of damage, but damage is still damage for 10/s sake, and Judgement hits hard enough to matter even if it's just on one target. The way it ends up balancing out is by putting the Gaussian's +BU in Rage to pop it after the crash expires and gain an additional +80% on top of 160% buff, which is enough to run 3-4 attacks with KO Blow.

 

As for the Defense Debuff... That's largely ignorable for half the sets between Brutes and Tankers when they can Resistance cap (and probably didn't have Defense to begin with). Or run a Granite build that's got so much mitigation it's just leaking out of the bedrock.

 

It's all management, and that crash is just silly.

 

nerf RAGE!

Nah again, nah.  lol. You can't use procs or incarnate powers existence as an excuse to balance a core power.

 

And yeah, I figured out how to work around the debuff crash myself. But. The key words there are "work around" it's not something you can ignore or pretend like it doesn't exist, you actually have to slot certain sets and pick certain powers - even incarnate a certain way just to mitigate the end and def crash - and even then once in a while they can get a run on you and still make it challenging.

 

I don't think the crash is silly, I see it as a challenge like superman finding a way around kryptonite - and both appreciate and respect the crash being there.

[Infinitum]

6 hours ago, Sir Myshkin said:

As for the Defense Debuff... That's largely ignorable for half the sets between Brutes and Tankers when they can Resistance cap (and probably didn't have Defense to begin with). Or run a Granite build that's got so much mitigation it's just leaking out of the bedrock.

If you main Shield, Invul, Even SR - which the first 2 are arguably the top 2 tank survivability sets in the game and I would wager thematically speaking what a good portion pick to pair with SS, it matters a great deal.  

 

Who cares about Brutes anyway, I'm pretty sure they hate Elvis.  Hehe.

[Bopper]

5 hours ago, Infinitum said:

Nah, sometimes literally 2pts of damage pops up when you throw jab or haymaker.

 

And as far as temp powers go, you can't use temp powers in context of whether or not a power should be nerfed.  

 

I just take my 2 pts of damage and roll with it.

Not sure what the orange numbers show, but the combat log shows 10% of base damage. Maybe you're exemplared, because I have doubts a level 50 haymaker would do 2 pts of damage. Jab, using brute modifier at level 50, is base 28.36, so under the crash it would be doing 2.84 damage. It's possible the orange numbers floor the damage instead of round, but haymaker should show 6-7 points.

[Infinitum]

1 hour ago, Bopper said:

Not sure what the orange numbers show, but the combat log shows 10% of base damage. Maybe you're exemplared, because I have doubts a level 50 haymaker would do 2 pts of damage. Jab, using brute modifier at level 50, is base 28.36, so under the crash it would be doing 2.84 damage. It's possible the orange numbers floor the damage instead of round, but haymaker should show 6-7 points.

Talking tanks though, remember Brutes hate Elvis.

[Bopper]

2 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

Talking tanks though, remember Brutes hate Elvis.

In that case I'll update my numbers.

Jab would do 3.59 damage (so a 3 or a 4 should be displayed)

Haymaker would do 8.66 damage (so a 8 or a 9 should be displayed).

 

Not sure why you're seeing 2's unless you have a damage aura on or a DoT being applied. But those are typically around 10 points of base damage, so you should be seeing 1's.

[Sir Myshkin]

7 hours ago, Infinitum said:

Nah again, nah.  lol. You can't use procs or incarnate powers existence as an excuse to balance a core power.

You're trying to make the claim that the crash, in the power's current state, in the current game, is balanced, when it is not. Even if we exclude the ability to mitigate the impact of the -Damage during that 10/s window, it does not change the fact that a double-stacked Rage vastly over clocks any attack utilized by that character in a permanent vacuum state. The very specific reason the original Devs didn't want to immediately port it over was because they already understood that giving Scrapper's a constant buff was too strong, let along one that stacked up to 160% irregardless of the crash. The part that massively gets missed (or excused away by the crash) is the fact of how aggressive Rage truly is on buffing performance even on Tankers and Brutes, and the recent Tanker modifier buff exasperates this even further.

 

Prior to the Buff the variance in modifier wasn't quite as extreme, and Tankers as a collective were generally under performing except where Super Strength was in place because it was capable of stacking itself up to bring SS into a feeling of passable/comparable strength. Now that the modifier has been improved on Tankers, and Fury has been better balanced for Brutes there's no longer any vague layers of confusion to hide under when demonstrating just how broken the buff is. There's enough players out there who are fully aware of how much impact Rage has and are afraid of loosing that, and thus fight so hard for every inch of thread they can to keep that rug from being pulled out from under them.

 

As for the Defense Debuff, again it is a laughable and easily ignored component of the power. Shield Defense is a terrible set to try and use as a scapegoat because of how excessive it can build up additional resistances on top of exceeding 45% defense on positionals on Tankers. And don't try and use the "balance on SO's" claim, we all know that's a farce at this stage of the game when it comes to even the most casual play. It takes very very little for a Tanker to find a pathway that invalidates a simple short-term debuff.

 

Shield/SS Tanker, Ignores Crash:

Spoiler

http://www.cohplanner.com/mids/download.php?uc=1465&c=685&a=1370&f=HEX&dc=78DA6594594F53511485CF6D2F20A595B10C42818240075A0679714E944186261878AF4D39B68D4D4BDA92C8A38938BC019AF8E2F8077C72FC230EF807F481C139FA5237772D06D39BB65FCF3A679FBDF7BAE7DEC8F551E7F3891BE795E1BC988EE5F3D1F958E69ACE39E6753C99C9A6B38965B57B55C8D783A9E8A8BEAA33791D9E4BA6747A616FD8CAD9884E6B995B5A94FF73859CCE240A49E59ACD66D3E1885E48C553198DD1782A912CA432896A6B34A3630B3A974FA6169DD6782E9B8BEBDCB27B6C31150F5FC82D157434B2148DC4F205519BA59A5EF98EBAE4C7D8ADAF58A6A6EC4A0D99CA364E4E82E634D9240B3DA62A1FC6B8DFA17849EC3B68CEF7E0D10FE447B06603ACFB048624D6605EE3A669690D2BE42DB0F13679076CBE0B8625D6CEBCF65E1BE682A0D747FAC1EE00B9028E49BF65CC5BB6855ACAB759FB77D6BAC35ABF82FE6FE0B8C45630B6E233B4235FC8CB8645C70F8C1D3FC181DFE084C4562256557A95A55D12ADCA32A1A8AAA84D8AE6E23A971B7B7AE4E854A35F55BD89FDA6645D2DD7D572DD90F8524F5FEA57E155F71A787C9DBC474EC28F3EFA62931C6EE67053B38BD6841CF626F6D5CEBEDAD957FB1F705AEA6961EE9687C871EC11F9186C7B423E05BDCFC061A9BBD53A8445A335081F02A42935785083E9A9419FFEBD7EEBC906B20EAC95980EC4D83A18D3C97B18E2BDBE22E842BDB6AEFBDC771D0CAC812352570F7BEA39094F7A4F91A7C933F4F1ECFF7ECE881F3EFAE9F3CB7E7DA68A49CE20F70BBE40EFFD2FC957E46B30F4867C0B76484F61F4648479F60678F656A5C841E61AE4396A33F79F4DF9C8A5FCE6FE935E0C94CC0E96284325CA891265A444992951664DA615C5B094CA9AFDE7B7B879F01E504608B56F1F6836C38B1E0353F070E01CDE415B87E37C88DB391CB703DF3A7F910F705FFE360AE8C23F49AFE834

 

And just to prove the point, how about SR/SS built on SO's to really highlight just how aggressive IO's can make the scenario when one can achieve these levels on SO's alone with a Tanker:

Spoiler

http://www.cohplanner.com/mids/download.php?uc=1458&c=570&a=1140&f=HEX&dc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

 

I'm not even after the rest of the set. I'm just after Rage.

[Infinitum]

48 minutes ago, Sir Myshkin said:

You're trying to make the claim that the crash, in the power's current state, in the current game, is balanced, when it is not.

Nothing is balanced in the current game.

 

Especially proc monsters.  Rage is a minor offender compared to those.

 

With rage you are penalized then penalized again if you are double stacking, and that will kill a novice.

 

There are no penalties to proc monsters.

[Infinitum]

2 hours ago, Bopper said:

In that case I'll update my numbers.

Jab would do 3.59 damage (so a 3 or a 4 should be displayed)

Haymaker would do 8.66 damage (so a 8 or a 9 should be displayed).

 

Not sure why you're seeing 2's unless you have a damage aura on or a DoT being applied. But those are typically around 10 points of base damage, so you should be seeing 1's.

I just checked, it was jab at 2, haymaker at 4.

 

But the point is you literally lose damage output in the crash.

 

Thats a penalty no other set experiences.  And worth it for the benefit when it's not under penalty.

 

You can't justify the set being OP because of proc effects and other bonuses though, because set bonuses and Incarnates is the only way to make the crash not lethal, but you still do no damage worth mentioning for 10 seconds.

Edited July 12, 2020 by Infinitum

[Bopper]

2 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

I just checked, it was jab at 2, haymaker at 4.

What did the combat log show? Interesting that the orange numbers would show so little

[Infinitum]

Just now, Bopper said:

What did the combat log show? Interesting that the orange numbers would show so little

I honestly forgot to check, and not going back upstairs till the a.c. blower gets fixed.  It's hotter than Satan's buttcrack up there right now.

 

If anything was open today, I could get a capacitor and fix it myself.

 

I'll check again later when it's not so hot.