CoH: Homecoming Wiki?

[Obsidius]

I searched for this topic on the forums and couldn't find any matches, so if this has been previously discussed, I apologize.

 

The Titan Network is dead set against adding any Homecoming content to the Paragon Wiki.

 

https://www.cohtitan.com/forum/index.php?topic=13415.0

 

Lamentably, if we want to add info about Sentinels, Kallisti Wharf , or other post Issue 24 changes, we will need to start our own wiki, since it looks like ParagonWiki will be forever stuck in a stagnant state "City of Heroes sunset" state. I'm not sure if there's any effort from the Homecoming team on this front, but I'd be interested as an editor as time allows.

 

If this happens, we can copy as much content from ParagonWiki as we want:

Quote

1)  The content of Paragon Wiki is licensed under open GNU.  Anyone can make a copy of Paragon Wiki and start their own wiki for their own server.  Wikis made this way can diverge from that point going forward to their heart's content.

 

2)  A server community may want to create a new wiki, but not copy all of Paragon Wiki, referencing Paragon Wiki for most content and only creating pages specific to their server where it's different.  This can easily be done by setting up an inter-wiki link on the new wiki and transcluding or linking to the content from Paragon Wiki.

 

3)  Or you can start your own wiki from scratch and go nuts with it.  That's cool, too.

I wouldn't recommend a lot of transcluding form ParagonWiki, because for things like powersets, ATs, inherent powers, changes to contacts or missions, altering badge locations, etc. we wouldn't be able to transclude that information very easily, nor edit ParagonWiki's content, and it would be more effective just to create a whole new document on the new wiki.

 

I'm interested in if this would be possible by the Homecoming group, if the player base would have to go this on our own, how many people would be interested in editing or a Homecoming wiki, etc.

[Widower]

49 minutes ago, Obsidius said:

The Titan Network is dead set against adding any Homecoming content to the Paragon Wiki.

On 8/9/2019 at 3:03 PM, TonyV said:

But yes, if [the NCSoft deal] goes through, the Paragon Wiki will be actively updated with new changes to the Homecoming servers.

So, yeah.

[Obsidius]

23 minutes ago, GM Widower said:

So, yeah.

I'll hope you don't forgive me for hanging my hat on TonyV's words. Just because I'm cautiously optimistic doesn't mean I'm confident anything will happen. Many of us were around in 2012 and 2015 when people talked about working with NCSoft.

 

I do find it interesting that TonyV and the Titan team have hung their star on the Homecoming effort without the benefit of us being able to better utilize their resources. In the meantime, any efforts to log anything on ParagonWiki, and now seemingly to start a wiki that can be alternately used, are also in limbo.

 

I suppose the question I have is: will we be able to improve ParagonWiki within the next 10 years?

Edited August 30, 2019 by Obsidius

[Widower]

4 minutes ago, Obsidius said:

I'll hope you don't forgive me for hanging my hat on TonyV's words. Just because I'm cautiously optimistic doesn't mean I'm confident anything will happen. Many of us were around in 2012 and 2015 when people talked about working with NCSoft.

 

I do find it interesting that TonyV and the Titan team have hung their star on the Homecoming effort without the benefit of us being able to better utilize their resources. In the meantime, any efforts to log anything on ParagonWiki, and now seemingly to start a wiki that can be alternately used, are also in limbo.

 

I suppose the question I have is: will we be able to improve ParagonWiki within the next 10 years?

If you aren't able to improve Paragon Wiki within ten months, I'll eat my hat. (Disclaimer: If you're not able to improve Paragon Wiki within ten months, it's unlikely you'll be able to track me down to remind me to eat my hat.)

[boggo2300]

2 hours ago, GM Widower said:

If you aren't able to improve Paragon Wiki within ten months, I'll eat my hat. (Disclaimer: If you're not able to improve Paragon Wiki within ten months, it's unlikely you'll be able to track me down to remind me to eat my hat.)

SNEAKY!  sounds like Stalker behaviour to me!

[Obsidius]

12 hours ago, GM Widower said:

If you aren't able to improve Paragon Wiki within ten months, I'll eat my hat. (Disclaimer: If you're not able to improve Paragon Wiki within ten months, it's unlikely you'll be able to track me down to remind me to eat my hat.)

I will only say that:

1. I'm hoping it doesn't take 10 months, but again won't hold my breath.
2. I don't know if I know you, but somehow I trust your good-natured demeanor.

Don't let us down, Slim Shade-y.

[justicebeliever]

I think the challenge now is it's likely do or die...

 

The deal goes thru and you'll have access to Paragon Wiki, or the deal falls apart and you won't have access to HC anymore...

 

One way or the other, this resolves itself sooner than later...HC seems optimistic, TonyV seems optimistic, and I have no reason to know otherwise, so I am trusting them as well...

[Obsidius]

Well, it seems like @The Philotic Knight wanted to start a Homecoming Wiki, but has heard nothing but crickets ever since asking to duplicate it to his own site:

 

 

So even if we wanted to make a Homecoming Wiki, it seems like support from ParagonWiki is sparse, and yet they won't let us update thier wiki. IN essence, we'd have to start from scratch without their assistance, or manually copy all the pages, categories, templates, etc.

[justicebeliever]

8 minutes ago, Obsidius said:

Well, it seems like @The Philotic Knight wanted to start a Homecoming Wiki, but has heard nothing but crickets ever since asking to duplicate it to his own site:

 

 

So even if we wanted to make a Homecoming Wiki, it seems like support from ParagonWiki is sparse, and yet they won't let us update thier wiki. IN essence, we'd have to start from scratch without their assistance, or manually copy all the pages, categories, templates, etc.

Here's the deal, hope this helps...

 

ParagonWIki is part of the Titan Network, owned by @TonyV.  It is the wish of the Titan Network that Paragon Wiki be a final snapshot of how the game was when it sunset...I assume as a general policy of that, they don't allow editing of pages any more.

 

Homecoming and the Titan Network are jointly working with NCSoft to make the game street legal and not a bootleg anymore....

 

If they are successful, then Titan Network will allow us (and they would be part of the us) to update Paragon Wiki with all things Homecoming

 

If they are not successful, then NCSoft will no doubt issue a C&D letter and all the big servers (Coxg, Rebirth, and especially Homecoming) will be shut down

 

So the reason to wait this out is

a.) they succeed, and it'll be 1,000,000X easier to update Paragon Wiki, then to clone it and try and update it...

b.)they fail, and there is literally no more Homecoming to play, and any updates are unneeded....

 

So that's where the advice to wait it out is coming from...I'm not trying to throw shade, and dump rain on your parade...I'm quite hopeful things will succeed (because what can I gain by being grumpy about it)...So just hang in there a while (few months longer)...

Edited September 6, 2019 by justicebeliever

[biostem]

8 minutes ago, Obsidius said:

Well, it seems like @The Philotic Knight wanted to start a Homecoming Wiki, but has heard nothing but crickets ever since asking to duplicate it to his own site:

 

 

So even if we wanted to make a Homecoming Wiki, it seems like support from ParagonWiki is sparse, and yet they won't let us update thier wiki. IN essence, we'd have to start from scratch without their assistance, or manually copy all the pages, categories, templates, etc.

I can sort of understand why Paragonwiki wouldn't want to include the Homecoming stuff - unless it became an official/legitimate version of the game, then Homecoming is basically a "fan mod" of sorts.  I'm not saying that to belittle what the HC devs are doing - it's a tremendous undertaking and I am very grateful for it... it's just not official.  Perhaps a HC wiki could simply reference the main Paragonwiki articles and just say "The available info matches what PW states, except in the following areas ______".

[Obsidius]

It's possible to simply transpose info, but some pages (ex.: base items, powersets, ATs, etc.) would need to be rewritten to match what Homeocming does. In addition, adding templates or boiler plates on PW for SCORE-related content is also something they'll not entertain.

 

It's understandable that PW doesn't want a lot of SCORE related edits, but we currently don't have an easy way of documenting them by wiki, and although Widower says we'll most likely have something in less than a year, the conversation on the other thread leaves things less certain and more nebulous, leaving the state of any wiki in limbo.

 

 

[justicebeliever]

While I would agree I would rather have a new Wiki now instead of several months from now...I would much rather we not waste our time doing it, even if it means we have to do without...

 

I wouldn't be a likely contributor (and you know I am shy about writing), if I know it all becomes throwaway, one way or the other in a few months...

 

It might take 2 years...I understand...I don't think it will...but regardless, we have robust forums and in-game help...

[Apparition]

4 hours ago, Obsidius said:

Well, it seems like @The Philotic Knight wanted to start a Homecoming Wiki, but has heard nothing but crickets ever since asking to duplicate it to his own site:

 

 

So even if we wanted to make a Homecoming Wiki, it seems like support from ParagonWiki is sparse, and yet they won't let us update thier wiki. IN essence, we'd have to start from scratch without their assistance, or manually copy all the pages, categories, templates, etc.

 

Part of the reason for the crickets may be because he set up his own wiki on Fandom, which is a huge no-no in my book.  Fandom is a scourge on the Internet and is best avoided at all costs.  Heck, ParagonWiki was once hosted on Fandom about ten years ago but left to make its own website because TonyV got tired of all of the ads.

[Hyperstrike]

3 hours ago, Apparition said:

 

Part of the reason for the crickets may be because he set up his own wiki on Fandom, which is a huge no-no in my book.  Fandom is a scourge on the Internet and is best avoided at all costs.  Heck, ParagonWiki was once hosted on Fandom about ten years ago but left to make its own website because TonyV got tired of all of the ads.

And that version still exist and has essentially scraped PW ever since.

[Blondeshell]

On ‎9‎/‎6‎/‎2019 at 4:55 PM, justicebeliever said:

ParagonWIki is part of the Titan Network, owned by @TonyV.  It is the wish of the Titan Network that Paragon Wiki be a final snapshot of how the game was when it sunset...I assume as a general policy of that, they don't allow editing of pages any more.

Minor clarification on this: Paragon Wiki does still allow editing of pages, as long as the edits comport with content as it existed at shutdown.

[Marine X]

As they added a whole section to document Titan Icon and Paragon Chat's ins and outs, they may choose to begin Chronicling Homecoming. It could be an Included reference to each of the Major Servers and what the differences between them are. Other than Market Crash and the Sentinal AT the majority of changes are fairly small. ParagonWiki is still valuable reference material and an Important tool for the Homecoming Community.

[Garble]

On 9/6/2019 at 3:47 PM, Obsidius said:

IN essence, we'd have to start from scratch without their assistance, or manually copy all the pages, categories, templates, etc.

 

Would we?

 

Another argument I can see against adding Homecoming info to ParagonWiki, is that Homecoming isn't any more *official* than the others. So, in theory they'd have to include content about all the other server networks.

 

With that in mind, couldn't we make a Homecoming Wiki that only details the specific changes and additions i25?

[WanderingAries]

On ‎9‎/‎6‎/‎2019 at 4:55 PM, justicebeliever said:

If they are not successful, then NCSoft will no doubt issue a C&D letter and all the big servers (Coxg, Rebirth, and especially Homecoming) will be shut down

If that were the case, then they would have come by now. HC has been playing things as smart as can be overall to avoid such a thing. So long as some rogue part of the community doesn't do something stupid like attempt to profit off of the game (before negotiations complete), then I don't think we're in any real risk of shutdown.

[Obsidius]

On 9/6/2019 at 3:03 PM, justicebeliever said:

While I would agree I would rather have a new Wiki now instead of several months from now...I would much rather we not waste our time doing it, even if it means we have to do without...

 

I wouldn't be a likely contributor (and you know I am shy about writing), if I know it all becomes throwaway, one way or the other in a few months...

 

It might take 2 years...I understand...I don't think it will...but regardless, we have robust forums and in-game help...

I think this is my stance for now. Although we could make a Homecoming Wiki that refers to PW for everything except stuff changed in homecoming/ I26/ etc., I think it would be a waste of time. If Homeocoming did become the new "official" City of Heroes, there would be a lot of copy & pasting and reformatting in order to ensure that PW formatting was followed, powerset propagated correctly, etc.

 

And I have enough of that at my work that actually pays me to do things like that.

[Apparition]

As we all know, Titan Network has decided to remain its own independent entity and ParagonWiki will remain frozen to the Issue 24 beta.  Yesterday, I started work on City of Wiki.

 

It's an unofficial City of Heroes: Homecoming wiki.  All content will need to be re-written from scratch.  Nothing can be copied from ParagonWiki unless the content comes directly from the game itself.  The reasons for this are because so much has changed since Issue 24 beta, and because ParagonWiki uses an incompatible license.  (Seriously, GNU Free Documentation License for a wiki?  But I digress.)

 

There's nothing on the site yet, and the look is far from final.  I'm giving a heads up because I'm going to need help, obviously.  If there's a graphic artist in the house, a new logo to replace the default logo would be great. :P

[Apparition]

User registration is now open.  If you are serious about wanting to help out with City of Wiki, please create an account by clicking or tapping the button on the upper right hand side.  Once your account is created, send me a PM here and I'll get you edit and creation access.

Edited September 29, 2019 by Apparition

[justicebeliever]

@Apparition, kudos to you for grabbing the bull by the horns on this

 

@Jimmy, @Cipher, when we talk about collaborating with Titan Network, what are we talking about?  Because it seems like there should be something they are bringing to the community.  Clearly, their biggest asset is ParagonWiki, but this blanket refusal to not allow us to update it seems like the opposite of collaboration.  If we have confidence the game is going to be made street legal, then let’s collaborate with them on a Homecoming Wiki.  Because there % of changes from the original continues to grow, and the lack of a central source for that continues to be a growing problem.

 

the answer isn’t to have the HC staff spend their time or energy on a wiki, but it seems like we should be able to leverage the relationship with Titan for something advantageous.

[Vanden]

16 hours ago, Apparition said:

As we all know, Titan Network has decided to remain its own independent entity and ParagonWiki will remain frozen to the Issue 24 beta.

I hadn't heard that they decided to walk back the decision to update the wiki with i25 info should Homecoming become legit. Do you have a link for that?

[Apparition]

44 minutes ago, Vanden said:

I hadn't heard that they decided to walk back the decision to update the wiki with i25 info should Homecoming become legit. Do you have a link for that?

 

It was strongly implied.  Titan Network wants to remain independent and separate from Homecoming, ParagonWiki included.  The only way that's possible with all of the divergent servers out there is to maintain the freeze on ParagonWiki.

[justicebeliever]

6 minutes ago, Apparition said:

 

It was strongly implied.  Titan Network wants to remain independent and separate from Homecoming, ParagonWiki included.  The only way that's possible with all of the divergent servers out there is to maintain the freeze on ParagonWiki.

It was previously stated by TonyV that once negotiations with NCSoft are complete they would allow ParagonWiki to be updated with the HC branch changes.  And HC just said in their most recent that they are continuing to collaborate with Titan Network.

 

I get their wanting to remain independent and separate, but either they are in or they are out.  If they are collaborating with us then they are picking a server.  At this point, here are the options

1.) We aren't collaborating and they want to remain independent.  That's fair, that's their right, but then let's call it out.

2.) We are collaborating, but ParagonWiki is forever off the table.  That's fair, that's their right, that's completely ridiculous, but let's call it out.

3.) Paragon Wiki is on the table...Well then, let's start updating it.  If the negotiations fall thru, they can roll back to a prior state and remove all the HC changes and go back to their former snapshot of a dead game.  If the negotiations go thru, then we are all that much further ahead and happier for it.  I just don't understand why the wait.