Time to allow ally shield on self?

[Warlawk]

What the title says. The game has changed, power creep is real. The rise of support sets like Nature and Time has allowed self buffing to insane levels and sets with ally only shields feel a little bit dated. FF especially, but cold, thermal etc all suffer from that limitation.

 

Personally, I don't think that allowing these things to affect the caster would break the game in any way but would certainly open up builds a little bit. I'm not sure that opening this on a blanket level to all ally only powers is a good plan, speed boost on self could be pretty crazy... but at the same time Chronoshift is 50% rech and can be made perma without sacrificing other parts of the build.

 

Would welcome peoples thoughts on it!

[Replacement]

I'm for giving it a shot.

[Myrmidon]

I’m in.

[Black Zot]

+1 to anyone who calls out the complete lack of logic in being able to buff an ally but not yourself.  Why should the SOURCE of the protective mojo be the most fragile person in the group?

[Galaxy Brain]

11 minutes ago, Black Zot said:

+1 to anyone who calls out the complete lack of logic in being able to buff an ally but not yourself.  Why should the SOURCE of the protective mojo be the most fragile person in the group?

Technically for balance, but yeah it doesnt make sense if it's not like a "I need to concentrate on you to maintain this mojo" power.

[DSorrow]

I'm slightly hesitant about this purely because of the power creep aspect, but having said that I'm not sure if this would be a huge balance concern considering existing sets such as Time and Nature. Also it would totally make sense. However, while it would make many support sets much more soloable it just might make Corrs/Defenders step into the territory of Sentinels. 

[n00baka]

25 minutes ago, DSorrow said:

I'm slightly hesitant about this purely because of the power creep aspect, but having said that I'm not sure if this would be a huge balance concern considering existing sets such as Time and Nature. Also it would totally make sense. However, while it would make many support sets much more soloable it just might make Corrs/Defenders step into the territory of Sentinels. 

I’m highly skeptical of this because of power creep. The OP is correct in that it exists, but that only makes me even more hesitant to just accept it. It’s been a while for me, and I’m at work so I can’t really check, but if I’m not mistaken Forcefield can reach soft capped defenses almost entirely by itself with its current numbers. And I know I remember this being brought up to the original developers and their response being along the lines of: “If we did this, we would have to reduce the effectiveness to the point of almost nothing to keep it balanced.” 

 

Allowing support role characters the ability to soft cap their defenses with just SOs seems a little OP to me, honestly. 

[Warlawk]

2 minutes ago, n00baka said:

I’m highly skeptical of this because of power creep. The OP is correct in that it exists, but that only makes me even more hesitant to just accept it. It’s been a while for me, and I’m at work so I can’t really check, but if I’m not mistaken Forcefield can reach soft capped defenses almost entirely by itself with its current numbers. And I know I remember this being brought up to the original developers and their response being along the lines of: “If we did this, we would have to reduce the effectiveness to the point of almost nothing to keep it balanced.” 

 

Allowing support role characters the ability to soft cap their defenses with just SOs seems a little OP to me, honestly. 

Well, looking at FF as the example here, in the larger context of what the other support sets bring I think letting them softcap themselves easily is still a pretty bare bone to throw the set. It still would be considered a pretty terrible set compared to many of the newer/updated sets.

[DSorrow]

1 hour ago, n00baka said:

I’m highly skeptical of this because of power creep. The OP is correct in that it exists, but that only makes me even more hesitant to just accept it. It’s been a while for me, and I’m at work so I can’t really check, but if I’m not mistaken Forcefield can reach soft capped defenses almost entirely by itself with its current numbers. And I know I remember this being brought up to the original developers and their response being along the lines of: “If we did this, we would have to reduce the effectiveness to the point of almost nothing to keep it balanced.” 

 

Allowing support role characters the ability to soft cap their defenses with just SOs seems a little OP to me, honestly. 

I want to avoid the slippery slope kind of thinking when it comes to power creep. It definitely should be a concern, but is it really a game balance issue if instead of 7 buffed up players in a team we get 8? The bigger issue, in my opinion, would be the support characters vs. Sentinels view. Why play /SR Sentinel when you could just go for /FF Corruptor to get the same Defenses but with team buffs? 

[Razor Cure]

With regard to power creep and soft capped def..almost ALL soft capping is done at lvl 50, with IOs + incarnate stuff. Very view sets can reach that out of the box, besides SR, some tank sets, maybe FF, power boosted Time. Not changing a power simply because it is super awesome and unkillable in build XYZ, at 50, tricked out, is not really a good argument. If it was, why aren't teh Devs nerfing fire armour into the dust, because it can solo farm massive mobs of bosses?

Power Creep is already here with IOs and Incarnate goodies.

Letting a set like FF self buff, would not suddenly make it overpowered, as it would still suffer from an utterly lack of +dam, to hit, rech, resist, etc etc. Well ok, with teh extra bits of teh shields, but nothing that is going to make you suddenly clear mobs in seconds alone.

Other sets like Cold and Therm really do suffer (well not as much before the new sets come in), particular therm, that has zero self mitigation of buffing. AT least Cold gets the slows and arctic fog.

Also, if some buffs were self use as well, it would actually encourage MORE people to take them. Lots count of the times I have seen colds with no shields, therms the same. On one Tin Mage tf..the cold corr HAD his shields, but didnt use them..not once. When I asked why..he told me to just pop a luck, as it would be just the same. Genius. May as well not slot any powers, ever. Just use lucks, reds, yellows, ors, blue and breaks free, constantly!.

Edited September 10, 2019 by Razor Cure

[Leogunner]

I was considering some of the more vulnerable sets (FF, Sonic, Cold, etc) and their buffs and some thoughts that came to mind:

• Feels kind of dated and unnecessary to have their shields divided into 2 powers.  I can sort of understand but at the same time, it's doing the set no favors.  So why not just combine the 2 shield system into 1 ally-only shield?
• The power to replace the 2nd shield could be a PBAoE buff that also helps the user, maybe with different numbers from the team mates.

I guess there's still the aspect of power creep so maybe not straight up defense/resistance but more on the utility side, perhaps?  I'd have to spend more time rolling ideas in my head, it's too early for me right now 😞 

[0th Power]

Power Creep would be a good villain name...

[Lazarillo]

19 hours ago, Warlawk said:

The rise of support sets like Nature and Time has allowed self buffing to insane levels and sets with ally only shields feel a little bit dated.

The thing is, most of those come at a cost: they've got very long Recharge times and come as an aura, meaning you either have to have everyone stop what they're doing every couple minutes and gather up, or, more commonly, are gonna be restricted to yourself and a smaller number of teammates.  Thermal and the like have minimal endurance costs and recharge times on their shields, allowing you to easily keep them on all teammates.

 

Personally, I like having the mix of different types.

[Rylas]

7 hours ago, DSorrow said:

I'm slightly hesitant about this purely because of the power creep aspect, but having said that I'm not sure if this would be a huge balance concern considering existing sets such as Time and Nature. Also it would totally make sense. However, while it would make many support sets much more soloable it just might make Corrs/Defenders step into the territory of Sentinels. 

That's a pretty valid concern. Maybe the self-buff aspect has slightly reduced numbers? Or maybe it requires casting it on an ally to receive it? Like how SB now hits anyone close enough to who you cast it on.

3 hours ago, Leogunner said:

I was considering some of the more vulnerable sets (FF, Sonic, Cold, etc) and their buffs and some thoughts that came to mind:

• Feels kind of dated and unnecessary to have their shields divided into 2 powers.  I can sort of understand but at the same time, it's doing the set no favors.  So why not just combine the 2 shield system into 1 ally-only shield?
• The power to replace the 2nd shield could be a PBAoE buff that also helps the user, maybe with different numbers from the team mates.

I guess there's still the aspect of power creep so maybe not straight up defense/resistance but more on the utility side, perhaps?  I'd have to spend more time rolling ideas in my head, it's too early for me right now 😞 

Combining the defense buffs like that would likely require they have reduced numbers. It would be the same if they started making armor sets that combined all the shields in one power. Also, these sets have been around to long and have too many people playing them to completely change out powers. 

Edited September 10, 2019 by Rylas

[PaxArcana]

26 minutes ago, Rylas said:

Combining the defense buffs like that would likely require they have reduced numbers.

My main on Live was a Robotics/FF Mastermind.  I've recreated him (with a bit of a twist, and as a Hero rather than a Villain) here.

 

And, you know what?  I'd be fine with that.  Another thing we could do, is just add the Endurance costs together, as well as the Recharge rate (which won't neuter them, as they're already AoE).

 

So, the new shield would have all of the END cost of the two separate shields, provide 80% as much benefit, and take roughly twice as long to recharge.  Please do that ... even though I, myself, won't benefit from it, it does open up a spot for Force Field to have a self-defense power.  A simple toggle that provides very modest (say, 10%) defense against the same things the two separate shields cover right now.

[biostem]

20 hours ago, Black Zot said:

+1 to anyone who calls out the complete lack of logic in being able to buff an ally but not yourself.  Why should the SOURCE of the protective mojo be the most fragile person in the group?

Well, the same could be said for controllers not being able to use their powers for more direct attacks - I mean, if you can surround enemies in fire, and even summon living embodiments of fire, why does it take so long just to fling around some fire balls?  In the case of forcefield, what they could do is add a mutually exclusive alternative to personal force field, which has much lower defensive values, but allows you to attack and interact with objects, while it's running.  At the same time, Champions Online allows you to target yourself, and as a result, (and if you're Freeform), you can make godlike characters quite easily...

Edited September 10, 2019 by biostem

[Razor Cure]

10 hours ago, Leogunner said:

I was considering some of the more vulnerable sets (FF, Sonic, Cold, etc) and their buffs and some thoughts that came to mind:

• Feels kind of dated and unnecessary to have their shields divided into 2 powers.  I can sort of understand but at the same time, it's doing the set no favors.  So why not just combine the 2 shield system into 1 ally-only shield?
• The power to replace the 2nd shield could be a PBAoE buff that also helps the user, maybe with different numbers from the team mates.

I guess there's still the aspect of power creep so maybe not straight up defense/resistance but more on the utility side, perhaps?  I'd have to spend more time rolling ideas in my head, it's too early for me right now 😞 

Oh that is a great idea! Especially with aoe ally buffing, no reason the two shields shouldn't be one.

[EyeLuvBooks]

The first thing that I want to avoid is all of the sets becoming homogenized. CO went that way and it was a disaster.

 

That being said, I'm also open to trying new things because I was one of the ones on Live pointing at VEATs at saying 'See? The Tanker-Mage WON'T break the game! I love the Sentinal AT as well as the Nature and Time power sets. So, let's find a middle ground and at least try it.

 

Idea #1) We allow the caster to use their shields on themselves but now they are no longer AoE to cast on the rest of the party. This would prevent using them on everyone all the time from becoming too easy. However, on the downside the players loved this feature and messing with it will likely cause upset.

 

Idea #2) Everything remains as it is now except that the shields provide an UNENHANCABLE buff to the caster. Many of the new sets provide unenhancable buffs now so there's precedence for this. It allows the Dev team to examine the typical use of the power and cap the benefits at a sane level rather than promote power creep.

 

Idea #3) Allow the ST shields to affect the caster but the AoE shields do not. Again, there is precedence for this in the Shield set where one power provides Defense for nearby allies but not for the caster. This change means that players who solo often (yes, we still have them) can skip the AoE shield completely and still protect themselves.

[PaxArcana]

59 minutes ago, EyeLuvBooks said:

Idea #1) We allow the caster to use their shields on themselves but now they are no longer AoE to cast on the rest of the party. This would prevent using them on everyone all the time from becoming too easy. However, on the downside the players loved this feature and messing with it will likely cause upset.

Doing nothing, would be far better than doing this. 😠

1 hour ago, EyeLuvBooks said:

Idea #3) Allow the ST shields to affect the caster but the AoE shields do not. Again, there is precedence for this in the Shield set where one power provides Defense for nearby allies but not for the caster. This change means that players who solo often (yes, we still have them) can skip the AoE shield completely and still protect themselves.

:cough: Masterminds :cough:

[Replacement]

Yeah well, we have a beta server now.

 

Folks that are hesitant: I hear you. But this is a perfect thing to send to a beta server, see how much of a storm is kicked up, then if it dies down, then we can see how it feels.

 

If it was successfully implemented... It would be a huge step towards a melee/support AT, as well.

[Crysta Clear]

Forcefield has a self-buff. It's a PBAoE toggle for ~7% to all defenses. That is already enough to easily softcap a Corruptor with just that, pool powers, and very minimal sets.

[PaxArcana]

26 minutes ago, Crysta Clear said:

Forcefield has a self-buff. It's a PBAoE toggle for ~7% to all defenses. That is already enough to easily softcap a Corruptor with just that, pool powers, and very minimal sets.

7% is negligible.  The shields are good for more than twice that, pb[and[/b] those allies get the toggle's benefits.

 

So ... 7% for me, 25%+ for them ... that's a problem, when other buff sets can give 20%+ to you AND your team-mates (or pets).

 

Also, you shouldn't balance an entire Primary or Secondary around the existence of pool powers, nor on the assumption that players will collect multiple IO sets.  Or any sets, for that matter.

Edited September 11, 2019 by PaxArcana

[Jeuraud]

The CoH Devs built the original ATs on the assumption that everybody would group... after all it's a MMO... and then found out pretty much from release that many of us did not want to group, or did limited grouping. The only AT that wasn't a pain in the butt to solo was the Scrapper. We were a big enough group (Or loud enough.), that the Devs had to improve the ATs abilities to Solo. They did this through some tweaks and Inherants, but refused to touch Support, because Support was supposed to support the group, if you wanted support then you should group.

 

The idea that you had Super Powers that could aid your allies but not yourself is ludicrous, and to be frank I think this was a Jack E thing, and IMO fixing this is long over due.

I Vote

Yes

[Crysta Clear]

Maybe not, but people have been shitting on Forcefields a lot lately and it's not in as bad a place as you all seem to think. XD

[Warlawk]

9 minutes ago, Crysta Clear said:

Maybe not, but people have been shitting on Forcefields a lot lately and it's not in as bad a place as you all seem to think. XD

If you just look at FF it's fine. It does its job. Almost every set in the game works that way.

 

If you look at FF in comparison to other support sets that do similar things, it's pretty terrible.