Personal Issue with AE and the slower slog of normal content.

[Abraxus]

I guess my response is, why devote time/resources (which are all volunteer BTW) on studying, and possibly changing something that really doesn't need to be changed; when it could be better spent on things that will universally (or as close as anything can come to it these days) make people happy, and want to play more? 

 

I really don't care why people farm, and I don't care THAT they farm.  My only desire is to see this server continue to flourish, and that folks genuinely want to play here for the long haul.  I would like to see us steer clear of things that don't really accomplish that, but absolutely do alienate some players to the point where they would stop playing rather than do so under the new conditions.  That will always happen to a certain degree, I suppose.  But, there is a very strong, and vibrant farming culture here, and the changes you propose would likely not sit well with them.  They would be angered, and probably leave.  Then what have we really accomplished?

[Schizophobia]

27 minutes ago, swordchucks said:

I don't entirely get how the overtuned rewards from AE are a play style or a preference. 

 

Bringing the AE rewards in line with pretty much all of the other content in the game shouldn't be such a controversial opinion.  If there are other farm missions that allow a similar level of reward, they should also be adjusted.  It should absolutely be a viable way to play the game, but it shouldn't necessarily be the optimal way to play the game.

because they're technically not overtuned (afaik). in fact the experience is already halved unless i am mistaken. its a choice of what content to run and how to run it. that's it.

 

the problem isn't that your opinion is "controversial" in and of itself. its that there's actually a shit ton to unpack with what seems like a simple statement. life is just funny that way.

 

just as a fun exercise, try to envision a system which offers rewards at an 'acceptable' rate across all playstyles and activities. and remember, no one way to engage with that content can be more rewarding than another, or if it is, it has to be within an 'acceptable' margin of error. you get to decide what acceptable means in both cases.

[Schizophobia]

20 minutes ago, Bentley Berkeley said:

Going back to the godfather of RPGs D&D

funny story, in first edition dnd you earned experience from acquiring gold. you acquired gold from going out into the world and doing things that accrued gold. hint: it was mostly combat with bad guys in scary places. you could do roleplay or explore or whatever you wanted, but those activities didn't offer rewards, unless i suppose the dm said that they did. so there was an optimal way to play, and optimal classes to play as to do it if gold/experience was the reward you wanted. damn those 'content locusts,' dnd ruined [shakes fist at air] (btw, really with this locust nonsense again dude?)

 

in later editions, they did away with the whole gold=exp thing. but ultimately combat is still the way you earn experience quickly. and some classes, hell some characters, are still simply more powerful and better at it than others. so just going by the rules as-is? sorry, there's people who will munchkin and murder hobo the shit out of it. and if that's what they want to do, that is what they are going to do. nothing, however, is lost by finding a different group who wants to run in a different way. what you find rewarding is up to you. its scary, but that's just what being an adult means, unfortunately (?)

[Llewellyn Blackwell]

On 10/18/2019 at 12:49 PM, MunkiLord said:

If the only way to get people to play user created stories in AE is to eliminate the competition, then those user created stories simply aren't good enough. Which is ok, most people are nothing special when it comes to creating content. The problem is a lot of people seem to think they are when in reality their ideas and stories are easily replaced.

 

Your idea is terrible. 

 

People really need to stop trying to ruin other people's fun. 

 

And if by well established you mean that you constantly tell us, then sure. 

Look at what your saying here, your  basically making a broad attack on all of those who actually are using AE for its stated intended purpose. Are there plenty of stories that are not as interesting as the best done ones in game? Sure but there are also plenty of weak tea stories in the game itself including many that while over all well done due to heavy handed pigeon holed dialogue options tend to put off plenty from casual immersion players to hard core RPers like meself.

 

You keep saying we are trying to ruin other peoples fun. What about the fun had by we who use AE the way its meant to be used, who have our fun ruined because we cant use that system without feeling like we are being punished because when its used and played like normal content it rewards so little as to basically be as if we turned off all rewards. While it over rewards those who abuse and exploit it to the point even the best speed running TF players in the game cant earn enough in non AE content to compare.

 

Thats the issue with AE atm. It either over rewards to those who dont deserve it, or rewards so little as to make it feel insulting to those who play with it, in the spirit it was intended to be played with.

 

But you and my little fan club of regular haters can keep making the veiled insults and gang up attacks. It wont change the fact that while I am always careful to be as civil as possible and rarely call anyone out, you and your ilk continue to be hostile to those whom you deem as the enemy.

 

And what I meant by well established was simply that I have clearly made myself out to be first and foremost a role player and feel that story driven content and those who play through it rather then speed through it should be the ones to feel the most rewarded.

 

BTW here is the bone Id toss to speed runners.  Id like to see an NPC like in the ski chalet that keeps the best times for ski runs in the city that does the same for TFs. So that those who are indeed the best at running content the fastest would see their names spead in game for all to see not just to the forum lurkers.

[Abraxus]

I'd love to see more mission content too, or revamps of what's already there, to entice folks to go that route, rather than nerfing AE to push them that way.  But, that's a huge undertaking that not even the dev team during live could accomplish, and there were more of them (plus they were getting paid to do it).

[swordchucks]

49 minutes ago, Schizophobia said:

because they're technically not overtuned (afaik).

It's not per-enemy rewards that are the issue.  It's the cumulative rewards of the AE farm vs. any other content.  The rewards (both xp and influence) of AE farming are easily double that of any "regular" activity in the game.  That's overtuned.  The 200-person raids were just nerfed back to 50 people because some people were abusing them to earn... about the same monetary rewards that could be earned in AE (and AE doesn't require you to cycle between many different 50s to pull that off).

 

(Due to the nature of the current economy, merits can be considered a monetary reward.  I use the ratio of 100 merits = 25 million influence in my head, though the actual ratio tends to be a bit less and varies over time.  I'm open to being proved wrong, so if you have non-AE farm activities that produce in excess of 400 merits or 100 million influence per hour, I'd be interested to hear what they are - I know from several farming post that high end farmers can well exceed 100 million influence per hour.)

Edited October 21, 2019 by swordchucks

[EmmySky]

4 hours ago, Lines said:

I think this thread is a little too identical to the other thread at this point in the conversation. Could I raise that one be closed and the conversation encouraged to continue in one place?

When this thread first popped up I honestly figured the other one had been locked so someone started it again.  Imagine my surprise when it wasn't.  +1 on closing one of these and letting people 'discuss' in one place.

[Schizophobia]

11 minutes ago, swordchucks said:

It's not per-enemy rewards that are the issue.  It's the cumulative rewards of the AE farm vs. any other content.

i understand, but this is the same problem. my takeaway is: the issue is that ae farms provide more rewards per time spent than other activities. and second that the disparity is too great.

 

regardless of whether or not i disagree with that (and i do, because that's not the basis of how i decide what i do when i play, and i don't particularly care how other people do that math) there remains several things which have to be addressed before anyone can attempt a solution.

 

what is an acceptable rate of time-to-reward?

what is an acceptable disparity between activities?

how does someone determine the above? (which activity is the 'baseline' and why that one?)

what is the desired outcome? (what behavior is being intentionally incentivized with these changes? getting people out of ae? making all activities equally rewarding just 'cuz?)

what is gained by doing this? (what is the goal and why is it desired?)

is this even really worth the time? (its an old game, everyone playing it enjoys it, i'd assume.)

what is the motivation of anyone who wants to pursue this? (are they concerned about the 'health of the game', whatever that means? or do they just feel that some people shouldn't get x in a way they don't approve of?)

 

i just can't escape the feeling here that people are people being dishonest with themselves and/or each other. i... don't farm. i feel no compulsion to farm, even knowing how much better the rewards are.

 

i am a dumb person, i am confused. why do we care how anyone else is playing a 15+ year old game? im scared, save me.

[roleki]

43 minutes ago, swordchucks said:

It's not per-enemy rewards that are the issue.  It's the cumulative rewards of the AE farm vs. any other content.  The rewards (both xp and influence) of AE farming are easily double that of any "regular" activity in the game.  That's overtuned.  The 200-person raids were just nerfed back to 50 people because some people were abusing them to earn... about the same monetary rewards that could be earned in AE (and AE doesn't require you to cycle between many different 50s to pull that off).

 

(Due to the nature of the current economy, merits can be considered a monetary reward.  I use the ratio of 100 merits = 25 million influence in my head, though the actual ratio tends to be a bit less and varies over time.  I'm open to being proved wrong, so if you have non-AE farm activities that produce in excess of 400 merits or 100 million influence per hour, I'd be interested to hear what they are - I know from several farming post that high end farmers can well exceed 100 million influence per hour.)

AE farming isn't nearly the drain on server resources that raids are, but sure.  Meanwhile, I think the extra inf I acquire while supporting player-created content in AE is scant compensation for not being able to experience content and roleplaying and costume contests.  

Why are you looking to punish people who are supporting creatives?

[Lines]

2 hours ago, Bentley Berkeley said:

2. PLvers/XP farmers: mainly a self centered form of farming that does not help the community at large unlike loot drop farmers. Easily removed from AE to reduce trite xp farm maps by simply adding a instant lvl 50 option. And as I said I dont care if its gated behind having 1 fifty already, as I also say the price of auto 50 is needing an alt to be able to fund/supply it. Do people who want to XP famr /PL really not just want this as an option?

 

...

 

So yes my goal is to see reward merits become something even non TF speed runners aquire in a fair and timely fashion, and see PLVers simply not need to spend time running content they dont even really want to be running for whatever reason. Speed runner types can still speed run for the challenge/bragging rights, just not for the rewards that being over powered for the content your burning through unjustly gives as it conflicts with the risk vs reward and time investment vs reward systems that are generally seen as the most fair in games.

 

Picking these two points out in particular:

 

AE PLing: The difference between the supposed problem and your proposed solution is negligible. All an insta-50 would do is save the few hours it might take to power level. In this sense, AE is the closest thing we may ever need to an insta-50, without any extra effort from anyone.

 

We’re yet to see if the accelerated income of inf from AE starts to cause a ruckus with the market, but so far so good. Live’s market got impregnable indeed when I played, but the introduction of reward merits and converters look like they’ve stabilised things, as has pooling certain items. If the economy stays stable, then it doesn’t matter at all how fast people get income as long as any content is feasible. Currently, there’s opportunity in some content to create new incomes, like Street Sweeping, which could have a reward system of its own.

 

 

Speedrunners: It’s worth speaking to record holders about this. While there are folks who just want to make it to the end of the TF quickly, as though the TF is a chore between them and merits, the competitive players are a whole other matter. That’s not just outfitting your build, but knowing your powers, knowing all the enemies, preparing temp powers in the PvP zones, knowing which insps to pop when and getting team coordination down pat... There’s definitely something to be said about the guys trying to get those last couple of minutes down.

 

As for rushing TFs for getting to the reward fastest, this is just having clear communication with the leader when you join. Going slowly through content is a self-imposed challenge; the game isn’t asking us to do it but it makes sense to us to often fight our way to objectives rather than ghost them. Some don’t see it that way.

 

There could be an opportunity to reward the slow-and-steady or thorough players as you say, but I don’t personally really feel like I need to be any more or less rewarded for taking my time than what’s already there. I don’t really wanna feel like I need to optimise chilling out and playing.

Edited October 21, 2019 by Lines
Like 3 dang grammar edits there.

[Razor Cure]

On 10/16/2019 at 5:27 AM, @Charlie said:

AE allows players to make more interesting, invested content than what's in-game, take on more challenges than what appears in-game (with EB mobs, AV mobs, etc.)

This is amusing. Really, really amusing. I agree the OP is a bit selfish, but this? I'd love to hear some stats on the amount of AE story arcs (well written, fun arcs) being run, vs the number of farms. And making them a challenge? Yeah, clearing fire farms are SUCH a challenge. lol

 

Edited October 22, 2019 by Razor Cure

[Spotlore]

I don't have any problems.  I really enjoy the gameplay, content, fun I can have with almost any group.  At any level.  /happy with everything.  xD

[golstat2003]

1 hour ago, Spotlore said:

I don't have any problems.  I really enjoy the gameplay, content, fun I can have with almost any group.  At any level.  /happy with everything.  xD

Same. Glad the team (of volunteers) is now expanding content.

[boggo2300]

16 hours ago, golstat2003 said:

Merits maybe?

Thats what I was thinking originally, but there would need to be some thought given to balancing end of arc Merit rewards, but I think it could be made to work

[swordchucks]

15 hours ago, roleki said:

I think the extra inf I acquire while supporting player-created content in AE is scant compensation for not being able to experience content and roleplaying and costume contests. 

The majority of AE content that isn't designed as a farm ends up with rewards in line or slightly lower than what you'd get out of other content.  I do not now, nor have I ever, had a problem with those rewards.  In fact, I don't have a problem with AE farms giving good rewards in line with high-end raid content.  My problem is that, right now, AE farms give much, much higher rewards than other content.

 

Also, I'm not sure how server load shakes out.  What's the difference in two hundred AE farm instances and one two hundred person raid?  One farm to one huge raid, sure, but two hundred farms?

[jubakumbi]

23 hours ago, Lines said:

Do you mean Darth Helmet's post?

 

Yeah, real scummy behaviour right there, discussing reward balance. Insidious puppetmaster at work, thinking a certain playstyle is under-rewarded.

 

This stuff's all good to talk about, even if it does go in circles a lot. Everybody is well-meaning in their proposals and deserve to be heard. Some may not realise that they're suggesting something that alienates other players. All these threads move away from AE nerfs really quickly and identify that if there is a problem at all, then there may be other ways to go about resolving it. Some less well-considered than others, some a lot more work than is reasonable, but it's all good to discuss.

 

So? I think it's ludicrous and misplaced to lump the 'community' into a particular mindset and then laugh at it. That just implies you're not really reading these threads and just wanna feel like your way of playing the game is being attacked. It really isn't, and I'd jump ship myself if the game started to ostracise certain playstyles - even if I didn't share it.

The reward balance is the entire argument form the Moral Players - make the rewards be better for 'my' playstyle, it's 'not 'fair' those other players get more stuff.

I do not, at all, even a little bit think 'everybody is well-meaning in thier proposals', I have lived life far too long to be that naive, these are player my age with education and skills, many know exactly what they are proposing and the other players it will drive away, it is the point to them.

 

And so we are disussing...

Some posters don't like my style of calling out things, just as I do not like the style of others.

Ah, Life.

 

I read the threads.

My way of playing the game cannot be attacked, because I do not play for the digital dopamine based on rewrds that these arguments over minutae are based.

I play to take the character ideas in my mind and see if I can make them happen in a virtual world.

Some players of this game and the original developers of this game tried countless times to force players into thier mold.

 

As I have stated, I find such actions to be terrible manifestations of our human ego and fear that we have to tear down anothers playstyle to prop up another; changing the rules to force others into a specific playstles is BS, IMO.

 

As far as laughing, yes, I find many of these ideas to be laughable, since many of the same voices tout the 'great community' while doing what they can to drive out playstyles they do not like.

After watching this go round and round for so many years in so many games, it is pretty funny at this point.

With the Internet at thier fingertips, where you can be anything, some players choose to be jerks to other players.

Laugh or Cry, as they say...

Edited October 22, 2019 by jubakumbi
speeling and tippos

[Ukase]

You know, I really had no idea how many people had such strong feelings about the AE farm issue - on both sides. 7 pages on a thread isn't gigantic, but the fact that folks are continuing to express opinions and thoughts just shows me how little I know about how other people think. 

 

 

[jubakumbi]

8 minutes ago, Ukase said:

You know, I really had no idea how many people had such strong feelings about the AE farm issue - on both sides. 7 pages on a thread isn't gigantic, but the fact that folks are continuing to express opinions and thoughts just shows me how little I know about how other people think. 

The original game implemented the AE and it used far more resources than intended.

The developers then set out to make using AE 'wrong' - not just for stories but for fast leveling - not the 'right' thing to do, through game changes and outright propaganda.

Many players decided they like the developer outlook and absorbed it.

Now, so many years later and on rogue servers no less, some players simply cannot let go of what they were talked into thinking 10 years back and revived the Holy War - to powerlevel to these people is Evil, to gain rewards faster or 'easier' is Evil, and these things must be destroyed.

It is really fun to watch.

Edited October 22, 2019 by jubakumbi
speeling

[roleki]

22 minutes ago, jubakumbi said:

It is really fun to watch.

It can be, until the serial whiners get their way and changes are made that affects everyone but them. 

 

[Frostbiter]

19 minutes ago, jubakumbi said:

The original game implemented the AE and it used far more resources than intended.

The developers then set out to make using AE 'wrong' - not just for stories but for fast leveling - not the 'right' thing to do, through game changes and outright propaganda.

Many players decided they like the developer outlook and absorbed it.

Now, so many years later and on rogue servers no less, some players simply cannot let go of what they were talked into thinking 10 years back and revived the Holy War - to powerlevel to these people is Evil, to gain rewards faster or 'easier' is Evil, and these things must be destroyed.

It is really fun to watch.

C'mon man, thats pure strawmanning unless you can list all the players that you've interviewed about the AE and provide transcripts of said interviews. Lets see your data that backs up what you know other players are thinking and feeling. Make sure it has all the dates going back to Live. 

[jubakumbi]

Just now, roleki said:

It can be, until the serial whiners get their way and changes are made that affects everyone but them. 

I don't fear this.

IMO, the voices that want these changes do not have the skills to get them implemented.

They won't be able to talk the servers runners into making the changes, they simply don't have the numbers or leverage.

At the same time, the players that want such a specific version of the game don't seem interested in creating a new server farm, the one that I know of that has tried to be 'just like Live' is just not really popular.

HC in the current form with the current outlook shared tells me that we are OK.

Just look at the way they handle AE and multi-boxing - it's all rules around making sure the resources they allocate can handle the general player load, not stupid punative measures.

[jubakumbi]

1 minute ago, Frostbiter said:

C'mon man, thats pure strawmanning unless you can list all the players that you've interviewed about the AE and provide transcripts of said interviews. Lets see your data that backs up what you know other players are thinking and feeling. Make sure it has all the dates going back to Live. 

Did not realize I had to back up my arguments here with court-of-law evidence.

These are my opinions, just like the other posters.

I base my posted thoughts on my memory and experience and interpretation of the data just like everyone else.

The way I explained it is, to me, what happened based on the things I see now and remember from Live.

 

The AE usage was more than the developers expected, they could not handle the load, and posts from the top developers railed against the 'story telling machine' being used for PLing and taking out the resources allocated for other things.

I remember the mobs of players convinced AE had ruined the game, simply because other players could hit 50 faster, just like now.

 

Do you have something specific that negates this outlook?

[Xeres]

I cant be alone in failing to see what the big deal is.  AE is here.  It's an option.  You want to do it fine, you don't, that's fine too.  I think more options are better than less.

 

Part of the fun for me is doing the older missions again (after many years).  Nostalgia and all that.  Besides, I don't really care about what's quicker.  But not everyone plays the same as I do, which is the point of what I'm trying to say.

 

Even a refresh of the old content if that were to happen should be an option somehow IMO (different server, or maybe a dialogue for each contact with the alternate mission content as a separate "Click to accept" option, or whatever).

[Frostbiter]

6 minutes ago, jubakumbi said:

Did not realize I had to back up my arguments here with court-of-law evidence.

These are my opinions, just like the other posters.

I base my posted thoughts on my memory and experience and interpretation of the data just like everyone else.

The way I explained it is, to me, what happened based on the things I see now and remember from Live.

 

The AE usage was more than the developers expected, they could not handle the load, and posts from the top developers railed against the 'story telling machine' being used for PLing and taking out the resources allocated for other things.

I remember the mobs of players convinced AE had ruined the game, simply because other players could hit 50 faster, just like now.

 

Do you have something specific that negates this outlook?

This isn't a court. This is a discussion/debate and when someone presents a claim its perfectly valid to ask them to back it up. If you can't do that then maybe don't make broad sweeping claims about what you think other people think. It has no bearing on reality and is in fact a logical fallacy.

[Twisted Toon]

15 minutes ago, jubakumbi said:

I remember the mobs of players convinced AE had ruined the game, simply because other players could hit 50 faster, just like now.

Actually, it wasn't simply because they could hit level 50 faster. It was because once they hit level 50, they had absolutely no idea how to play that level 50 and wanted to join in the level 50 Hami games. But, because they didn't know how to play that level 50, ruined the fun for many of those that did not PL their way to 50 and actually knew how to play. This was, of course, before Incarnates. When level 50 content wasn't as easy to trivialize.

 

So, yes, PLing to 50 can have detrimental effects for other players. It's not as likely now as it once was.

 

I don't really have an opinion on whether AE should be changed or not. I will say that, on the off chance, if the Devs decide to do something about the balance between normal content and AE farming, It would probably be vastly more feasible to nerf AE than to buff everything else in the game.