Will we ever see the new things that Cake is getting?

[jubakumbi]

2 minutes ago, Luminara said:

One team or server group laboring under the necessity to be all things to all players will, inevitably, crumble under the weight of expectations.  Different teams and server groups can offer different things, and adopt or discard ideas from one another as befits each and to the benefit of the players supporting them.

 

It's not a competition, beyond the obvious need to attract enough players willing to assist with server expenses.  It's offering all players more options.

Which is exactly why I don't want just one group to become 'legit' and thus become another single point of failure...

[Communistpenguin]

31 minutes ago, jubakumbi said:

Which is exactly why I don't want just one group to become 'legit' and thus become another single point of failure...

Yes, but one "legit" group is better than no "legit" groups and a C&D letter. Yes the code is in the wild, but I don't think anyone here wants lawyers playing whack-a-mole, and all servers being limited to operate in obscurity and with small player numbers.

[Luminara]

44 minutes ago, jubakumbi said:

Which is exactly why I don't want just one group to become 'legit' and thus become another single point of failure...

 

As has been pointed out in many threads, the djinn is out of the bottle.  It won't matter if the eventual licensing agreement fails to reach fruition, or forces all but one acknowledged server to shut down, or NCSoft throws their collective hands in the air and says, "Whatever.  Keep it, just stop bothering us."  There will never again be a day when there are no Co* servers.  There will never be a single point of failure.  It's in too many hands for that to happen now.

 

And if the situation did play out with only one licensed team or server group, the HC team would lose nothing by offering to fold the other teams in, on separate servers with separate rules, as part of a collective, centralized community.  If anything, they'd benefit from the increase in players and more stable revenue flow, as well as having more options to offer without detracting from their own focus.

 

Having one team singled out for legitimacy doesn't mean all other teams, efforts or ideas have to go away.  Especially not in consideration of the situation which led to the dissemination of the server code.

Edited February 7, 2020 by Luminara

[_NOPE_]

Exactly, @Luminara. And, if my beginner's understanding of the code is anything remotely close to accurate, there might also be the possibility of Homecoming being a central AuthServer, which points to many different groups and their servers that would display in the Shard/server list. AFAIK, there's nothing in the code that says that all the servers have to be owned and operated by the same people (there's separate listings in the code for different IP addresses). I just think the current groups just haven't had the time to look into this aspect of the code, as they all seem to currently keep things separate. But, I think there's the possibility already written in the code for a coalition of separate owner/operators that all use the same launcher.

 

I could be wrong about all of this, of course, but I don't think I am.

Edited February 7, 2020 by The Philotic Knight

[jubakumbi]

11 minutes ago, Luminara said:

 

As has been pointed out in many threads, the djinn is out of the bottle.  It won't matter if the eventual licensing agreement fails to reach fruition, or forces all but one acknowledged server to shut down, or NCSoft throws their collective hands in the air and says, "Whatever.  Keep it, just stop bothering us."  There will never again be a day when there are no Co* servers.  There will never be a single point of failure.  It's in too many hands for that to happen now.

 

And if the situation did play out with only one licensed team or server group, the HC team would lose nothing by offering to fold the other teams in, on separate servers with separate rules, as part of a collective, centralized community.  If anything, they'd benefit from the increase in players and more stable revenue flow, as well as having more options to offer without detracting from their own focus.

 

Having one team singled out for legitimacy doesn't mean all other teams, efforts or ideas have to go away.  Especially not in consideration of the situation which led to the dissemination of the server code.

Except there are players advocating for just such a situation in which there is only On Source Of Truth that have happily stated they will help burn down the other houses.

To many players, as discussed here, the only way the game is even worth playing is with the largest player base possible.

 

So, for a lot of people, I would even say most players, if there is only one legit server set, that is where they will play, period.

In turn, as we all know, one group can never please everyone.

 

I simply want a situation where 'anyone' can run a server, tweaked anyway they like, not just one group.

If they have to jump through a hoop of some kind, OK, NCSoft owns the IP, that's fine, but if they let one set of server runners do this, then IMO, it should be open to anyone.

 

But IMO, if NCSoft decides to crown only one set of servers, then it effectively kills off the rest, which stiffles the creativity and variety.

 

Benjamin Franklin once said: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

[Abraxus]

Here's my take.  The Homecoming team says what it does, and does what it does.  Nothing more, or less.  It doesn't disparage the other teams, and typically wishes them well.  They are not obliged to do anything beyond what they said they would do, which is to keep their servers open, and available for us to play.  Their actions to date have been in-line with their stated goals.  If their have been any ulterior motives, or ill will, it was only that which was ascribed via conversation threads like this one.  Where someone asked a question, it was answered, and somewhere along the line it skewed into perceptions of relationships between the Dev teams on the other servers, which gave rise to speculation on a number of things.

 

We are a community, and like any community, we have differing opinions, and preferences.  We typically discuss them without devolving into anger.  There have been exceptions, but fairly infrequent.  So, I see no reason for any of that to change.  Yes, some servers have some neat-o features that HC does not.  HC has done some things that none of the others have done.  The population center is still pretty much HC, but that doesn't mean the other servers have nothing to offer due to lower populations, if that's your thing.

 

On the question of ownership, I agree.  Right now, everything is equal.  They are all rogue servers, operating because NCSoft has allowed them to.  If that were to change, CoH would not go away.  It would just splinter into many smaller shards spread out all over the world.  So, one would just have to find one that they liked, and that would be that.  However, that being said, Homecoming is negotiating for legitimacy with NCSoft.  If that is successful, that will have an effect on the current landscape.  There is no denying that.  What effect, nobody can say, because we don't know what exactly that will mean until it is announce.  We can speculate, and supposition the possibilities all day long, but the truth is NOBODY except the folks doing the talking know for sure.  Until they do finalize things, and make it public, we go on as we have.  Nothing changes, and there sure is no cause for in-fighting over who will still be standing when those talks are over.  It could be everybody, it could be just one (legal), or it could just not work.  To me, it is another of those things that HC is attempting to do that none of the other hosts have done, and we don't know what it will mean, until we do.  What we cannot do is let the fear of the unknown do what it typically does, and create divisions over the mere possibility of changes which, at this time, have yet to even be defined. 

I have no doubts that once it is said, and done (assuming it is successful) there will be those who refuse to recognize it, or be a part of it, just because it is NCSoft.  Others will dislike it for other reasons of their own, and likewise refuse to have anything to do with it.  In the end, we will all make our own decisions on where we want to play, based on all the information available at the time.  Right now, there is a lot we don't know.  So, until that changes...I will just play the game.

Edited February 7, 2020 by Abraxus

[jubakumbi]

5 minutes ago, Abraxus said:

We are a community, and like any community, we have differing opinions, and preferences.  We typically discuss them without devolving into anger.  There have been exceptions, but fairly infrequent.

This is where I disagree.

This community talks all the time about how much 'better' it is, then does terrible things to it's members, like telling people they are not creative enough.

IMO, every thread talking about real things devolves into anger.

 

Even a hint of an attitude in a post, here, Reddit, where ever, that dares to not fall over agreeing with everything HC based is attacked, just as rabid fans attack everything HC does based on 'history' and 'hurt feelings'.

 

You, @Abraxus, try very hard to be very diplomatic and that's fine, great even.

I always applaud your diplomatic, sunny disposition, but it is not as universal as you make it out to be IMO.

I really do appreciate the way in which you try to be civil, but that attitude is far from universal in the community.

 

I see a bunch of people that followed the 'first to market' blindly, that continue to promote the tribe they are in, only because they are in it, still trying to 'white knight' things for a company that no longer exists, to make themselves feel like they are 'playing the game right', while everyone is in the same boat, playing on rogue server that may well be gone tomorrow, interested more in who is 'right' than just allowing the game to survive for everyone.

 

I still say there is nothing really stopping all of these group from working together than thier own Egos.

[_NOPE_]

[Replacement]

3 hours ago, jubakumbi said:

“The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.” Attributed to Edmund Burke.

 

The only thing I want is for this supposed 'community' to pool resources and work together on both the technical and politcal aspects to keep the game running, attractive, and fun to play, rather than fighting over minutae most of them don't really understand.

 

I realize the mini-tribes within the community are hell-bent against that happening, because people are people.

 

Won't stop me from talking about it bluntly and openly in an effort to get more people to work together on solutions.

 

The only reason we don't have more crossover productivity is Egos, not Technology.

Not to point fingers... (but I'm absolutely about to start pointing) -- I've watched the CoXG patch notes, and I've read a lot of their dev and administrative posts on Reddit and...

 

Every single one of those posts spits venom at Homecoming.  They have even stated they intentionally occlude how they did things because they believe others will steal them (and then cast aspersions towards HC, etc etc).  They get hacked?  Immediately assume it has to do with Homecoming.  There's an exploit in Tequila that doesn't matter (seriously, a malicious manifest already has this power), scream that HC knew about it for years!

 

You want to get folks to work together?  The best place to start is calling out those fearmongerers who can't go even a single post without shitting in the community well. 

 

Somehow, when they throw this shade, people listen, and now no one trusts anyone.  It's Peak Stupid.

 

 

[_NOPE_]

6 minutes ago, Replacement said:

You want to get folks to work together?  The best place to start is calling out those fearmongerers who can't go even a single post without shitting in the community well. 

I disagree. I think the best place to start getting folks to work together is to just ignore those posts that don't promote that goal, and try to invite those people that post them to the community with open arms. "Calling out those fearmongers" only continues the perpetual cycle of tribalism. The best way to stop that tribalism is not with more tribalism - it's to widen the tribe to include EVERYONE.

 

For only love, can conquer hate:

 

 

Edited February 7, 2020 by The Philotic Knight

[Replacement]

1 minute ago, The Philotic Knight said:

I disagree. I think the best place to start getting folks to work together is to just ignore those posts that don't promote that goal, and try to invite those people that post them to the community with open arms. "Calling out those fearmongers" only continues the perpetual cycle of tribalism. The best way to stop that tribalism is not with more tribalism - it's to widen the tribe to include EVERYONE.

 

For only love, can conquer hate:

 

 

I genuinely appreciate your wisdom, here.

[jubakumbi]

Just now, Replacement said:

Not to point fingers... (but I'm absolutely about to start pointing) -- I've watched the CoXG patch notes, and I've read a lot of their dev and administrative posts on Reddit and...

 

Every single one of those posts spits venom at Homecoming.  They have even stated they intentionally occlude how they did things because they believe others will steal them (and then cast aspersions towards HC, etc etc).  They get hacked?  Immediately assume it has to do with Homecoming.  There's an exploit in Tequila that doesn't matter (seriously, a malicious manifest already has this power), scream that HC knew about it for years!

 

You want to get folks to work together?  The best place to start is calling out those fearmongerers who can't go even a single post without shitting in the community well. 

 

Somehow, when they throw this shade, people listen, and now no one trusts anyone.  It's Peak Stupid.

As I stated in my last post, this is a two-way street and has been from the first time anyone mentioned creating a server separate from HC.

Both sides have chips on thier shoulders, both sides think they are filled with the righteous fire of a thousands suns, whatever level of hyperbole can be named, we have seen it.

I have seen people here tell each other they are playing the game wrong just because the like KB or Homages.

I have seen people on Reddit attack the WHC server, just because they had the audacity to advertise.

The attacks are all around, from all sides, all full of FUD and Ego.

 

The part that makes me laugh the most is that through it all, the community still claims to be 'the best'...so hypocritical and so blind to it...

[Replacement]

1 minute ago, jubakumbi said:

As I stated in my last post, this is a two-way street and has been from the first time anyone mentioned creating a server separate from HC.

Both sides have chips on thier shoulders, both sides think they are filled with the righteous fire of a thousands suns, whatever level of hyperbole can be named, we have seen it.

I have seen people here tell each other they are playing the game wrong just because the like KB or Homages.

I have seen people on Reddit attack the WHC server, just because they had the audacity to advertise.

The attacks are all around, from all sides, all full of FUD and Ego.

 

The part that makes me laugh the most is that through it all, the community still claims to be 'the best'...so hypocritical and so blind to it...

Absolutely true.  Of the players.

 

But I'm speaking about the "management" so to speak.  The people running the server I mentioned - the people in charge who everyone else looks to - they are the ones with the caustic attitudes.  And I've seen Cypher in those very threads being patient and explanatory, never a harsh word issued back.

 

MY reason for choosing Homecoming is that simple point of comparison.  I personally may be a piece of shit that lashes out emotionally, but the HC staff has class, and they back up those words with their actions.  I can't say the same for the leadership of that server.

 

NOTE: Rebirth, et al, seem to be pretty cool folk.  I only have the one set of issues.

[jubakumbi]

1 minute ago, Replacement said:

Absolutely true.  Of the players.

 

But I'm speaking about the "management" so to speak.  The people running the server I mentioned - the people in charge who everyone else looks to - they are the ones with the caustic attitudes.  And I've seen Cypher in those very threads being patient and explanatory, never a harsh word issued back.

 

MY reason for choosing Homecoming is that simple point of comparison.  I personally may be a piece of shit that lashes out emotionally, but the HC staff has class, and they back up those words with their actions.  I can't say the same for the leadership of that server.

 

NOTE: Rebirth, et al, seem to be pretty cool folk.  I only have the one set of issues.

I am also talking about the sever runners.

 

They are the ones here that invoked the no Homage rule, for example, bowing to FUD and telling people 'they are not creative enough'.

 

The server runners that opened the i24 servers did so specifically because i25 was 'wrong', and they were way over-the-top with thier attitude.

I watched the stats on about 300 players leaving HC to go there and those numbers never came back.

 

Places like COXG are not for everyone, but certainly allow for more real freedom and creativity, even if the reality of real freedom is that you encounter things that you find distasteful, but still act like children toward other servers.

 

So yeah, I am talking about the whole community, top to bottom, there is a ton of 'blame' to go around for the current level of disfunction and no on is immune, IMO.

 

If these people would set aside thier Egos and hurt feelings about not being able to play on the super secret server run by the dictators they did not like or how it's so unsightly to have to see Hulk homages in Atlas, or how everyone is cheating by powerleveling, and just try and work together, we might all be enjoying the additions that have been individually added to each server, but instead, the in-fighting, back-stabbing and just plain mean trolling, sometimes of thier own players, continues.

 

There is no one involved that I can see that does not have a portion of this blame to carry.

 

[Haijinx]

Wow.  This thread got dark. 

 

 

[Nericus]

I would like to see the other incarnate powers finally brought in.

[Coyote]

You, whoever you are, are part of any change that you wish to bring about in the world. And you are also part of other changes.

 

If you would like the world to be a brighter place, be a brighter person, and speak nicely about Homecoming, and speak nicely about other servers... it doesn't harm you, HC, the other servers, or the community.

 

If you would LIKE the world to be a darker place, speak ill of Homecoming, or the other servers, or the community, or anything else. Because ill will returns ill will, and evil words return evil words. You get what you create.

 

And while hardly anyone goes around deliberately darkening the world, there are people who just speak ill and say that it's just speaking their mind, not thinking about how you create, perpetuate, or increase the dark side of the conversation... that you thought you were just pointing out. I don't wish to imply that just ignoring bad behavior is always the wise course... but perpetuating it is almost never a part of wisdom. Take the high road and you will be happier and so will be the ones around you.

 

I speak as a former shard admin, BTW... I saw a lot of unpleasant actions, speech, and so on... but the only times that things ever got resolved well was by people choosing to be nice DESPITE the opportunity to be unpleasant, and the justification of "but they". Yeah, sometimes you're right, and "but they" is correct. But it still doesn't lead to good solutions.

[RubyRed]

This thread has gone completely OT, but what the heck. I'll bite.

 

I went back and looked for where it took a nosedive. It was originally a fairly neutral conversation about getting some things that another server has, and the philosophies behind why we may or may not get them.  It wasn't until jubakumbi's first post that anything resembling animosity towards other servers was discussed or implied. Then once he got the conversation steered in that direction he just comes back to the pot to stir every few posts. 

 

In other words, classic trolling. The only animosity being displayed here is by those who feel they have something to prove about non-HC servers for whatever reason. It's a self fulfilling prophecy because once the conversation moves in that direction, everyone instinctively gets defensive.

 

Don't feed the trolls. HC and the other servers can and do co-exist peacefully. It isn't worth arguing over suppositions.

[_NOPE_]

He's one of only six people on my ignore list for reasons like that. 

Edited February 8, 2020 by The Philotic Knight

[Oubliette_Red]

2 hours ago, RubyRed said:

This thread has gone completely OT, but what the heck. I'll bite.

 

I went back and looked for where it took a nosedive. It was originally a fairly neutral conversation about getting some things that another server has, and the philosophies behind why we may or may not get them.  It wasn't until jubakumbi's first post that anything resembling animosity towards other servers was discussed or implied. Then once he got the conversation steered in that direction he just comes back to the pot to stir every few posts. 

 

In other words, classic trolling. The only animosity being displayed here is by those who feel they have something to prove about non-HC servers for whatever reason. It's a self fulfilling prophecy because once the conversation moves in that direction, everyone instinctively gets defensive.

 

Don't feed the trolls. HC and the other servers can and do co-exist peacefully. It isn't worth arguing over suppositions.

It's a common theme with a particular set of posters.

[Lines]

Just throwing in that I know for a fact that there are OuroDev folk who play on Homecoming, with zero baggage.

 

It's not nearly as cut-throat as very few individuals make it look, and I'm always game for seeing how different developers of different calibres and styles morph the game in different ways. What an amazing position we're in, when we can see that happening. I can't wait for more tools to develop for even more people to be brought into the fold.

 

I may explore the others soon.

[DR_Mechano]

2 hours ago, Lines said:

Just throwing in that I know for a fact that there are OuroDev folk who play on Homecoming, with zero baggage.

 

It's not nearly as cut-throat as very few individuals make it look, and I'm always game for seeing how different developers of different calibres and styles morph the game in different ways. What an amazing position we're in, when we can see that happening. I can't wait for more tools to develop for even more people to be brought into the fold.

 

I may explore the others soon.

That's what I plan to do. I do love the fact that I can have a main server in Homecoming and a little side 'fun' server in We Have Cake. I mean it's a shame we can't merge the two but hey...for now I'll just have to play on both I guess.

[Jimmy]

12 hours ago, Haijinx said:

Wow.  This thread got dark. 

 

 

Indeed, it did.

 

Please try to remain civil and on topic everyone 🙂

[EmmySky]

37 minutes ago, DR_Mechano said:

That's what I plan to do. I do love the fact that I can have a main server in Homecoming and a little side 'fun' server in We Have Cake. I mean it's a shame we can't merge the two but hey...for now I'll just have to play on both I guess.

I haven't tried other servers yet, I have done well to figure this one out, but this seems like a perfect solution to 'patch day'.  Oh server is down for maintenence or there is a long dload...go play a different server for a few hours.  Can we get them to all work together enough to stagger their downtimes?  😁😝

[DR_Mechano]

1 hour ago, EmmySky said:

I haven't tried other servers yet, I have done well to figure this one out, but this seems like a perfect solution to 'patch day'.  Oh server is down for maintenence or there is a long dload...go play a different server for a few hours.  Can we get them to all work together enough to stagger their downtimes?  😁😝

We can only hope that happens, like you said for long patch day times which fall at awkward times for me since I'm in the UK 14:00 to 18:00 means that since I work mornings (5am to 1pm) I come home and the servers are down, playing on We Have Cake means I can get my CoH fix whilst HC is still being worked on.

Edited February 8, 2020 by DR_Mechano