Why don't you play on the Villain Side?

[Yomo Kimyata]

Actually, I just cannot stand the aesthetics of redside.  Especially the Arachnos bases.  Hurts my eyes.  Red and black do not make a good experience for me, but YMMV!

[Luminara]

4 hours ago, EmmySky said:

Do you think you would see Lex Luthor running errands for Lord Recluse, much less some of the really low level folks you end up working for redside?

 

That would depend on the voice actor.  Clancy Brown?  He'd own Recluse, figuratively and literally.  Rainn Wilson?  Recluse's shoe-shine boy.

[Luminara]

2 hours ago, VileTerror said:

Blueside feels like so much painted cardboard.  ESPECIALLY places like Steel (Box) Canyon.

 

Steel Canyon is the best place to play chicken with the ground.

[gurugeorge]

I went with "too grim."  I do have a few villains gradually ranking up, and it's nice to dip into that atmosphere now and then, but for the most part I prefer hero side.

[nihilii]

13 hours ago, EmmySky said:

This is not allowed redside.  You are forever a mere henchman.

Later arcs definitely veered off from that: you decide to kidnap Mortimer Kal's daughter on your own to blackmail him into leading you to incarnate powers. In Dark Astoria you act as if saving the world only long enough to find a way to kill a goddess and steal her powers. The I24 arcs have you forming your own mercenary group where you have praetorian big hitters working under you and ultimately defeat the most powerful psychic in the world.

Mind you, I never felt the henchman thing even in I6. I didn't get the complaints back in the day and I don't get them now. It's not like hero-side treats you as a fully powered Superman as soon as level 4, when contacts tell you to be careful fighting street gangs. Yet there's this expectation the player character should be Lex Luthor already on top of his evil empire when he steps out of the villain tutorial.

There's probably a perception rift that can't be fixed in that some people play this game purely as a power trip whereas some players like to be part of an universe. Typical power trips are unrealistic on both sides, but much easier to accomodate on hero side ("punch things real hard to save the world") than on villain side ("be the master of the universe and somehow don't have to use diplomacy despite endless superpowered individuals at your level or above").

 

 

[Chris24601]

For me it’s as simple as “I am constitutionally incapable of playing evil.” Not just here; in any game. I’ve never seen the villainous endings of video games I own outside of YouTube videos.

 

I couldn’t even take the vigilante option in the new HC vigilante-only arc (which I used Null to try out because the Vigilante tip missions require too many moral compromises for me to actually manage 10 tips plus a morality mission to do it organically). I stealthed through most of it and, when given the option, ultimately arrested the guy for the lesser offense rather than killed him.

 

I tried a Chaotic Neutral PC in a D&D game once. By the third session the GM declared them Chaotic Good.

 

The first villain I rolled in CoV was an undercover hero from the future trying to stop a horrible event from happening and needed to play the villain.

 

I picked only missions that seemed to have other villains as targets.

 

I deliberately failed certain missions. For the mission to stop Amanda Vines broadcast I just zoned in and door sat until the timer ran out.

 

I was basically playing like the lightest-grey rogue, before the Rogue alignment was even a thing. But by the 30s the content was getting darker and harder to avoid the moral event horizon.

 

So when the final Kelly Uqua mission allowed me to deliberately fail it and thereby allow reveal the secret Rikti plot, I decided THAT was the event my Redside character had been sent back to stop and benched them immediately thereafter at level 38.

 

Then I re-rolled the character blueside as they started their life over as a hero in the light of day.

 

When the alignment system was put into place, the first thing I did was run that benched character through it so they could be a hero using their original AT.

 

Years ago I learned I was someone who, without thinking, ran towards real life danger just because I saw a stranger in need of help.

 

I am literally not wired to enjoy even pretending to be a bad guy.

 

That’s why I don’t play redside.

[EmmySky]

1 hour ago, nihilii said:

Later arcs definitely veered off from that: you decide to kidnap Mortimer Kal's daughter on your own to blackmail him into leading you to incarnate powers. In Dark Astoria you act as if saving the world only long enough to find a way to kill a goddess and steal her powers. The I24 arcs have you forming your own mercenary group where you have praetorian big hitters working under you and ultimately defeat the most powerful psychic in the world.

Mind you, I never felt the henchman thing even in I6. I didn't get the complaints back in the day and I don't get them now. It's not like hero-side treats you as a fully powered Superman as soon as level 4, when contacts tell you to be careful fighting street gangs. Yet there's this expectation the player character should be Lex Luthor already on top of his evil empire when he steps out of the villain tutorial.

There's probably a perception rift that can't be fixed in that some people play this game purely as a power trip whereas some players like to be part of an universe. Typical power trips are unrealistic on both sides, but much easier to accomodate on hero side ("punch things real hard to save the world") than on villain side ("be the master of the universe and somehow don't have to use diplomacy despite endless superpowered individuals at your level or above").

Okay, to be fair, I left the game in 2010 so didnt know about the later arcs you mention.  My current villain (1 out of 39 toons) is level 22ish, so maybe she will experience all that.

 

I think your last paragraph really hit on something key.

 

Blueside has a lot of "saving the world" which is very big in scope and lets you feel heroic even as a baby hero just learning your powers.  Maybe that is power trippy (I have never been accused of being power trippy before lol) but it really seems to deliver on the City of Heroes theme. 

 

Redside, they have you serving someone else's goals, and even if the goal is to take over the world ("what we gonna do today, Brain?") you never actually get to be the one in control of the world. 

 

Again, I dont even know how that would even begin to be coded so its really more a limitation of the technology and implementation than of the game itself (would be easy in PnP).  There has to be a hard-coded agency at work, and for an MMO, that can't realistically be recoded for every player to see themself as taking over the world.  But it can (and is) coded for every player to see themself as saving the world.  

[Heraclea]

15 hours ago, VileTerror said:

Any time I hear someone say that Redside's maps are "drab" or "lack content," I get full-on confused.  Is their game broken?  Is the zone not rendering properly?  Did something happen to wash out the colour and fuzz over the details?

 

When I do play redside I find myself often having to mess with the gamma so  I can see where I am going.

[serxiom]

Since CoV release i just played Redside. All my toons were villians and still are. I think only got 2 lvl 50 heroes before shutdown. 

For me Redside always being more challenging, storyarcs more polished and entertaining. 

Why no so many people playing Redside? Easy answer: when devs gave access to villians AT to blueside they just killed CoV. 

I can't undestand why a AT called Stalker, Brute etc can be a hero. Makes no sense to me. 

 

Edited February 22, 2020 by serxiom

[The_Warpact]

If you follow the Arachnos path this is like the rise of an apprentice to become the master.

Alot of other ones are do this, rob them, kill that group.

I have my favorites, Willy Wheeler being manipulated by Ace is funny, and my favorites are the villains tip missions now you have a choice.

Although I wish when robbing a bank you got a large inf bonus, so many details can go into it to make the Villains side seem like a true villain.

The Matthew Burke contact could have set a more independent villain line for more a recruitment for a super villain counter group to Arachnos.

So many possibilities, if I knew how to do AE better I'd create a whole world lol.

 

[Leogunner]

3 hours ago, nihilii said:

Later arcs definitely veered off from that: you decide to kidnap Mortimer Kal's daughter on your own to blackmail him into leading you to incarnate powers. In Dark Astoria you act as if saving the world only long enough to find a way to kill a goddess and steal her powers. The I24 arcs have you forming your own mercenary group where you have praetorian big hitters working under you and ultimately defeat the most powerful psychic in the world.

Mind you, I never felt the henchman thing even in I6. I didn't get the complaints back in the day and I don't get them now. It's not like hero-side treats you as a fully powered Superman as soon as level 4, when contacts tell you to be careful fighting street gangs. Yet there's this expectation the player character should be Lex Luthor already on top of his evil empire when he steps out of the villain tutorial.

There's probably a perception rift that can't be fixed in that some people play this game purely as a power trip whereas some players like to be part of an universe. Typical power trips are unrealistic on both sides, but much easier to accomodate on hero side ("punch things real hard to save the world") than on villain side ("be the master of the universe and somehow don't have to use diplomacy despite endless superpowered individuals at your level or above").

 

 

This guy gets it! 

👏 👏 👏 

[Leogunner]

2 hours ago, EmmySky said:

Redside, they have you serving someone else's goals, and even if the goal is to take over the world ("what we gonna do today, Brain?") you never actually get to be the one in control of the world. 

 

Again, I dont even know how that would even begin to be coded so its really more a limitation of the technology and implementation than of the game itself (would be easy in PnP).  There has to be a hard-coded agency at work, and for an MMO, that can't realistically be recoded for every player to see themself as taking over the world.  But it can (and is) coded for every player to see themself as saving the world.  

(to the first part) Then why hold this expectation if you know it is infeasible with the limitations of the game? This is exactly what I was talking about in my previous posts. 

 

But just because a specific aspect of villainy isn't feasible, doesn't mean all aspects of villainy are also infeasible. Making a guy who just like messing with people, or someone who is actually a flunky who obsessively follows the command of their master or someone who just takes what they want are all feasible in the game and can be very villainous. Again, you don't have to be Dr. Doom. If you do want to be that type, you're going to have to take some liberties with focused RP to accomplish. 

 

So there are villainous aspects that aren't supported by the game the same as there are heroic aspects not supported. So you can take it or leave it. I can't stop two trains about to collide, catch kids plummeting from a great height or catch a falling plane or if the sky. 

 

 

[DestinyPlayer]

My personal issue with Redside is less that it forces you into being the Henchman, and more that a lot of the dialogue options make your character sound like an idiot. Maybe it's just that I recently completed Hearts of Darkness so that perception got stuck, but it really, really irks me. It's a similar problem I have with Skyrim and a lot of Skyrim mods, in that they almost always expect that you're going to be playing the bashy smashy Proud Nord who is incompetent at magic, and all the dialogue is designed to reflect that, even though I usually end up playing characters who actually end up deserving the title of Archmage.

 

Same here. The dialogue in a lot of the missions just makes your character sound dumb, regardless of the actual concept, to the point that I can't even use my imagination to come up with something more fitting for the character most of the time, because both the contact responses and the consequent actions also make you look dumb.

Edited February 22, 2020 by DestinyPlayer

[Dazl]

I play both sides, since all my toons are either vigilante or rouge. I do play blue side when creating a new character because it's easier to level up blue side.

[tidge]

3 hours ago, EmmySky said:

Okay, to be fair, I left the game in 2010 so didnt know about the later arcs you mention.  My current villain (1 out of 39 toons) is level 22ish, so maybe she will experience all that.

Be sure to play TIP missions to reinforce your villainy (or not, your choice)...these missions offer more 'narrative agency' and they are generally more fun.

[EmmySky]

34 minutes ago, Leogunner said:

But just because a specific aspect of villainy isn't feasible, doesn't mean all aspects of villainy are also infeasible. Making a guy who just like messing with people, or someone who is actually a flunky who obsessively follows the command of their master or someone who just takes what they want are all feasible in the game and can be very villainous. Again, you don't have to be Dr. Doom. If you do want to be that type, you're going to have to take some liberties with focused RP to accomplish. 

I see what you're saying but this goes back to what I said way up thread about the promise of the game.  City of Villains not City of Flunkies.  You are right that there are lots of greys in villainy but when I think of Villain I think of the main power holder, the man with the plan.  It is entirely expectations. 

 

Also, and please dont anyone tell me to play a different game lol cuz I would die, I am a horrible RPer.  Sure, this is an MMORPG but I mainly solo and I am fundamentally incapable of being anything other than myself.  So there is that.

 

Thank you all for engaging in this discussion so civilly and kindly.  When I saw 'so-and-so quoted you' on my notifications I was afraid this would degenerate into flame wars that so many threads do but everyone has been very nice here!  We can all have our opinions and still get along.  

 

I will try out the arcs @nihilii pointed out with my baby villain, thanks for letting me know about them!

Edited February 22, 2020 by EmmySky
Ack...it got me...autocorrect...the evil....I'm dying!

[MTeague]

Early redside missions, you're treated as a lackey.   And I'd argue that's to be expected. You may have potential but you're the new whelp.  No one fears you yet. 

Later on, the tone changes to to respect, and even caution in dealing with you.  

 

My playtime goes Blueside 40% / Redside 40% / Goldside 20%

 

But while I would very much encourage people to try redside if they haven't, I don't know that I see it as a problem to be fixed.

If someone really doesn't enjoy being a video game bad guy, I'm not going to tell them they're doing it wrong. 

 

I will say one thing that helped me get into Redside, was creating one redside nemesis / foe for each blueside character, and having a headcanon of who would win each match, individually, and how it would all pan out if it came down to some epic 5-on-5 or 10-on-10 clashes, and which characters would change sides along the way. 

[nihilii]

3 hours ago, EmmySky said:

Maybe that is power trippy (I have never been accused of being power trippy before lol) but it really seems to deliver on the City of Heroes theme.

My mistake, English as a second language. 🙂 I meant a power *fantasy* rather, and of course there's nothing wrong with that. It's just the nature of the beast hero power fantasies are easier to accomodate.

[VileTerror]

Let's circle back.

I can't speak for everyone, but I definitely know -my- issue with certain portions of writing, and it all comes down to Player Agency, and nothing else.

 

It's not an issue for me, so much, that my character is killing innocents in favour of some NPC's life goals of world domination.  It's that there is writing which explicitly suggests -why- my character is doing it.  That's the fundamental issue I have.  A hero's goals are pretty clear, so the motivation doesn't really have to be touched (it's lazy and doesn't add a lot of depth to the character, but this is roleplay:  The PLAYER adds those motivations and depth.  City of Heroes is more Fallout: New Vegas, rather than Fallout 4, as an example).  

A villain's goals are, by the nature of writing good villains; subtle, multifaceted, and compelling!  There should be enough sympathy for the villain to give the reader a sense that "maybe the hero WILL lose, just because the villain is -that- relatable." 

 

And thereby my issue arises:  I can't relate to all of my villains on Redside.  I have a lot of villains (over 70) with a lot of varied characterization, but so much of the content is written with a narrative crux that doesn't allow for the flexibility to give space for all those archetypes.  The writing doesn't have to cater to each one specifically!  It just needs to offer wiggle room for them to exist.

 

For the most part, Issue 6 didn't do a terrible job, from what I see.  There are some notable issues, like your character holding the Idiot Ball WAY too long in the Willy Wheeler arc (granted, that was more a limitation of the game tech at the time.  If that arc were rewritten with modern tech, you could probably blow the whistle on Willy after his first anti-Arachnos op, end the arc prematurely, skip out on the Merit rewards, and go for a short-term cash grab.  And THAT would be more than "wiggle room.").  To give wiggle room, all Willy has to do is offer more varied incentive than "do this for money, until Arachnos finds out, and then do this to avoid Arachnos' wrath."  Willy!  Please!  I eat Arachnos deathsquads for breakfast.  Give me more reasons to not punt you off the side of the cliff you're standing on.

 

As I said earlier in this thread:  I am 100% willing to put my pen to paper on this.  If there's a chance that my work will actually be seriously considered for inclusion, I will get started later today.  @holymittens, are you still around?  What are my chances?

[Llewellyn Blackwell]

20 hours ago, Solarverse said:

• Other (Explained in forum post)

Here is the thing...when the original developers announced they were going to allow red side archetypes play as Heroes and blue side archetypes play as Villains, I instantly knew through educated reasoning that this would be a very bad idea...and the end of red side as we know it. I knew everyone would gravitate to blue side over time, leaving red side a deserted wasteland. I implored the developers to reconsider, stating that one of the primary motives to play red side was the ability to play the unique archetypes that was only playable as a Villain and without that incentive, they would only be creating a huge problem in red side population. 

 

The vast majority of players already played on blue side. It was already a problem before the change. However, it was doable at the time, because that incentive to play red side still remained...no red side, no Villain archetype.

 

There was already a way to play with Heroes in place with Co-op zones such as RWZ. There was even a Task Force that could be played by both factions to unite the Heroes and Villains from time to time. It would have been a far better move to expand this, but sadly, expanding the idea of Co-Op zones was bypassed and they went straight for Going Rogue.

 

After the initial craze had ended, what ended up happening was exactly as I had predicted, players started leaving Red side in favor of Blue side. This was happening on live and is not a unique situation to Homecoming.

 

Sadly, this is not something that can be fixed because the damage has already been done. Because of it, I never play red side unless my SG or close friends ask me to run a Strike Force. Once that is finished, it's right back to blue side I go. Playing red side has lots its value and has lost its luster ever since they allowed Going Rogue to go live. That was a huge mistake, and now that the craze has ended, that huge mistake is very evident.

 

When I tried to warn people about what the outcome of this was going to be, I was basically told to shut up because this is what the players wanted. So be it, I shut up as I was told to do and then I just sit back and watched it all go down exactly as I said it would. Now it's too late, damage has been done and I digress.

You seem to be unaware that within months of launching cov was deemed a failure by NC Soft. It never had even close to the popularity of blue side even at launch day. Even paragon Studios later admitted it would of been better never to have added faction pvp, kept pvp to arenas and duels and simple had one single larger world. Thats why Praetoria was made to be left behind from the get go and they didnt create any unique praetorian ATs.

 

If not for are very vocal but very small open world pvp fanbase here on HC my vote would be to remove alignments entirely and let people wander and play were they will. There was no damage to be done to red side, because it was basically deemed DOA by the company. The only hard core red siders Ive ever known are the types who use being a villain to try to justify very negative RP like racism, sexism, and the like. Basically the people who stuck red side were mostly dicks, driving off those few who wanted to be red side but behave in a civil fashion still.

[tidge]

I want to make a separate post about the aesthetics of red v. blue, without specifically quoting or comment any of the posts so far in this thread.

 

B1) Blue side had IMO one thematic advantage in its original design (prior to quicky teleport options) in that the for the most part the zones are laid out per the original map/poster that came with the game and that you literally can walk/sprint/fly from one zone to a neighboring zone. I remain non-plussed that the one area of the Rogue Isles where you could potentially do that (Port Oakes and CapAu Diable) you cannot. I understand it is a compromise between War Walls and water.

 

Blue side has two other items which could be seen as advantages or disadvantages, depending on you PoV and personal PC situation.

 

B2) Blue side offers both Hazard zones and PvP zones. Personally: the only Hazard zone I actually enjoy playing in is Perez Park (for teh memories) but even there I hate the maze. I'm glad that Perez Park was never remade per the dev plans. Boomtown is dull, even with the potential event. I've been on Numina TFs where people didn't even know there was a Terra Volta zone. Being sent on a mission to a Hazard Zone feels like a punishment.

 

B3) Blue side geometry is for the most part simple and boring. This is a potential advantage for players with lower end graphics systems (from 10+ years ago!) because the more complicated red side geometry used to include (not sure if it still does) drawing many things that are invisible to the players. I'm referring to skyscrapers that extend deep into the ground: Port Oakes used to be the number one culprit here.

 

I actually prefer the Red Side zone design. Here is why:

 

R1) The zones are all uniformly scaled appropriately to get to where you want to go, with the only possible exception being parts of Nerva. Blue side has some freaking huge zones with many areas that are flat out time consuming to get to: Talos Island, Independence Port and Boomtown are the zones which often have missions in extremely out-of-the-way places.

 

R2) In terms of enemy presence: the villain zones feel more organic about which enemies exist in which parts of the zones. Running through the streets of Paragon City just feels like 'this is where the lvl 10-15 enemies are, up north is where the lvl 15-20 enemies are'. The only blue side zones that avoid this IMO are Croatoa and Striga. On the red side every villain group has a specific reason (or two!) for being where they are located.

 

R3) With the noticeable exception of Grandville, the villain zones are straightforward to get around in. I actually miss the original Mercy Island, and while I recognize that the current design offers vertical challenges.. I've never had a problem getting between missions without a travel power. Paragon City offers plenty of trouble. I already mentioned the mazes of Perez Park. Faultine (even redesigned) and Terra Volta are not picnics for non-fliers (especially when the villain groups are in the air). Skyway City is as much a challenge for the uninitiated non-flier as Mercy Island. Woe to the grounded speedster who takes the wrong route in Steel Canyon or Boomtown!

 

R4) The choices of map design are a big part of the narrative. Sharkhead Isle's unique areas all serve (many) different stories. The same with Cap Au Diable and St. Martial. The other zones also have these tie-ins, but most of my toons quickly outlevel much of the content! The closest we get to tying arcs and zone layout together on the Blue Side is Striga, and even that is just a fixed series of sequential arcs along with an unrelated TF and a concluding TF. Blue side there is the Atlas accolade, and I challenge anyone to explain how all the elements of *that* story make sense in terms of the narrative layout of the zones you need to hit to get the accolade.

[Lines]

I love redside. Prefer it, even. I really like the darker, grimier aesthetic over the copy-paste, often nonsense zones of Paragon City. I like finding little nooks with passive storytelling and I'm a sucker for the European architecture style. It has so much more uniqueness in a much smaller area.

 

I like the stories too. Actually, the ones that give the character more agency bug me more, for the way that they put words in the player characters' mouths. Your character still plays the audience surrogate role and is, at best, a secondary agent in the world just like with blueside. I think if you can be ok with that and plot your characters around it, it takes the edge off that henchman feeling. I kinda prefer having characters in that spot, where there's indefinite upwards progression for them or that they're under pressure enough to drive them. I lose interest with the later stories when the game tries pushing player characters into the world's greatest hero spotlight.

 

I would absolutely love an entire character arc from 1-50 that, through player choices and the character's own initiative, allows you to conduct your own masterplan to unleash your own havoc somehow. But that's a tall order.

 

Plus I like villains as characters in general.

[VileTerror]

uh, Lines . . . putting words in the player-character's mouth is the OPPOSITE of Agency.

[Solarverse]

3 minutes ago, Bentley Berkeley said:

You seem to be unaware that within months of launching cov was deemed a failure by NC Soft. It never had even close to the popularity of blue side even at launch day. Even paragon Studios later admitted it would of been better never to have added faction pvp, kept pvp to arenas and duels and simple had one single larger world. Thats why Praetoria was made to be left behind from the get go and they didnt create any unique praetorian ATs.

 

If not for are very vocal but very small open world pvp fanbase here on HC my vote would be to remove alignments entirely and let people wander and play were they will. There was no damage to be done to red side, because it was basically deemed DOA by the company. The only hard core red siders Ive ever known are the types who use being a villain to try to justify very negative RP like racism, sexism, and the like. Basically the people who stuck red side were mostly dicks, driving off those few who wanted to be red side but behave in a civil fashion still.

So clearly is was a bad idea for many reasons. I think the reason I gave and the one you gave are probably both culprits as to why CoV failed. Although I was unaware that it was considered a failure until after the release of Going Rogue. From my personal perspective, CoV was not as thriving as CoH, but it did have a good amount of players playing red side and finding teams was not all that difficult. I played a Stalker and an Ice/Cold corruptor on red side, and leveled many randoms to various levels, not once did I have an issue finding teams until a few months after Going Rogue. Suddenly players were migrating over to blue side, leaving red side feeling very barren.

[Lines]

14 minutes ago, VileTerror said:

uh, Lines . . . putting words in the player-character's mouth is the OPPOSITE of Agency.

I mean character agency rather than player agency. I was thinking mainly about the Dean MacArthur story, Brother Hammond and the Pandora's Box SSA. There are a few others too. A lot of what happens there is supposedly the character's idea, but the dialogue options and goals are funnelled down specific routes or use idiosyncratic speech to get you there. 

 

There's even a cutscene at the end of the Mortimer Kal SF where the character speaks, "Are you kidding me? The Flames of Prometheus are mine, Positron. I can take as much as I want! Why would I ever give you anything?" It just sounds... shite.

 

The more passive "Ok, I'll do that" at least doesn't push the character into a particular persona.

Edited February 22, 2020 by Lines