Focused Feedback: Experimentation (Build 5)

[Jimmy]

This is a Focused Feedback Thread

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• Changes from the previous build will be listed in green.
• Any changes or fixes that are only relevant to the beta builds (as in, not changes relevant to the live version of the game) will be listed in blue.

 

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New Origin Power Pool: Experimentation

"Experimentation gives you access to poisonous ranged attacks as well as powers that boost your attack power and the survivability of your allies. This pool's travel power is Speed of Sound. While active, this power allows you to run at incredible speeds and also gives you access to the Jaunt power. Jaunt allows you to quickly teleport long distances once every so often."

• As a reminder: Only one Origin Pool (Sorcery, Force of Will, Experimentation) can be active in a build at any one time.

Powers

•  T1: Experimental Injection (Melee Ranged, Ally +Regeneration, +Recovery, +Res(Status))
  • You inject an ally with a compound that greatly boosts their regeneration, recovery and resistance to status effects for a short time. Recharge: Long
•  T2: Toxic Dart (Ranged, Minor DMG(Lethal), High DMG(Toxic))
  • You fire a toxic dart at your target causing an very minor amount of immediate lethal damage followed by a High amount of toxic damage over time. Recharge: Moderate
    • Recharge reduced from 6s to 4s, damage and endurance cost reduced accordingly
•  T3: Speed of Sound (Toggle: Self +Speed, (Special))
  • Your experiments have yielded incredible results. By activating this power, you're able to run at incredible speeds. In fact, while this power is active, you gain access to the Jaunt power. Jaunt allows you to teleport to a distant location once every short while.
  •  Jaunt (Click, Self Teleport)
    • Clicking on this power and then selecting a location will cause the caster to vanish and reappear at their target location. Recharge: Moderate
      • Jaunt can now be activated 3 times in a row before going on cooldown
•  T4: Corrosive Vial (Ranged (Targeted AoE), High DoT(Toxic), -Defense)
  • You hurl a vial of toxic fluid that explodes upon impact leaving a corrosive puddle at your target's feet. Any foe that stands within the puddle will take toxic damage and have their defense reduced for a short while. Corrosive Vial requires you to have 2 powers from the Experimentation power pool. Damage: High (DoT), Recharge: Slow
•  T5: Adrenal Booster (Self, +To Hit, +Recharge, +Damage, +Special)
  • You inject yourself with a concentrated experimental serum that boosts your damage, recharge, chance to hit and secondary effects for a short time. Adrenal Booster requires you to have 2 powers from the Experimentation power pool. Recharge: Very Long

[Blackfeather]

2 hours ago, Jimmy said:

 Jaunt (Click, Self Teleport)

• Clicking on this power and then selecting a location will cause the caster to vanish and reappear at their target location. Recharge: Moderate
  • Jaunt can now be activated 3 times in a row before going on cooldown

This sounds like a very neat change - it allows for vertical movement that Super Speed lacks, while also being different from the teleportation that Mystic Flight has.

[r0y]

I tried the travel power.  While the Jaunt is a decent idea, mechanically, it is cumbersome due to camera angles and distances.  My test was jumping up on the train station's roof in Atlas:  I had to zoom all the way back and rotate things just right to get the target rings on top of the roof.  It completely interrupted the Speed of Sound (SoS) travel.  I can see this happening a lot, so I'd probably just stick with Steam Jump for my vertical needs.

 

I always liked how Champions did teleport:  fade color out, fast fly (intangible) for a few seconds, re-emerge hovering a few seconds, then fall/gravity (giving enough time to hit the TP key again).

 

The toxic dart was fun for a low-level, leveling-up power.  Overall, I think it'll be great for theme characters, etc.  But I doubt I'd replace SS with SoS due to the stealth aspect, as well as Hasten > this entire set as far as value goes.  Let's face it, the real test of any of these origin-based sets are:  is it good enough to replace the comparable travel pool?  In this case:  Not really.  Hasten+SS is a tough combo to beat.

[r0y]

4 hours ago, Blackfeather said:

This sounds like a very neat change - it allows for vertical movement that Super Speed lacks, while also being different from the teleportation that Mystic Flight has.

At least with Mystic Flight, you're flying already and do not fall to the ground instantly, like with Jaunt.  It is a good idea, but feels very impractical, especially given that players can pick a free vertical travel a la Steam Jet / Jump Jet (or whatever its called).

 

I used to love the Magic Pool, and had mystic flight with it's free TP (that didn't increase speed any) until I discovered Afterburner.  Never took Mystic Pool again.  Don't get me wrong, I see the value of these in Role Playing or strict Theme-based characters.  Plus, new sets are always welcome!  However, for my playstyle, they just fall short of getting done the job I need them to do.

[Replacement]

@r0y Good to hear the flip side of these sets.  Too many people liking them just how they were is a sign something might become overwhelmingly too popular.  Still, we have every other teleport for recovery mechanisms (the hover period in teleport, the flight of mystic flight).  Jaunt's snappy instant-port is exactly what many of us wanted.  That said, no matter how incredibly great it feels, nothing will dethrone Hasten, a known distortion of the entire rest of the game.  In the context of Experimentation... I think that's just fine.  

 

I have 2 open questions:

#1: Will we ever see customizations for the vials themselves?  Right now they are always the same (and seem to get progressively greener the further into the tree you go) and ignore custom colors.  This isn't a "need" of course, and I certainly wouldn't halt launch for it.  But I'm curious to know if this is something that could gain tinting down the road or if that's a "tip of the iceberg" kind of deal.

 

#2: What was the intent behind the changes to Toxic Dart in this build?  Was it too strong before, relative to other Pool attack powers?

[JayboH]

Yeah I questioned the toxic dart change on the alpha forums too, but perhaps it is best.  I was using it in a regular chain of charged bolts, lightning bolt, toxic dart, zapp, repeat.

[Replacement]

Playing around with Speed of Sound/Jaunt today.

 

Protip: if you only jaunt about every 4 seconds or so, you never go on cooldown.  The "that doesn't add up" part of my brain is telling me this is slower, overall, than bamfing 3x times and then waiting the 10 seconds, but it's a good option for people who want to develop a nice flow, mix up their parkour some.

 

Speaking of mixing it up, I'm actually enjoying pairing this with Combat Jumping.  A lot of speed and mobility all just coming together with the combo.

 

Comparing to Super Speed: I get we have a precedent established of letting these Origin pools be just as good as old powers +1... but I feel like we could shave 5-10% off the speed of Speed of Sound.  Close enough to Super Speed to not functionally matter, but still letting Super Speed have the throne of being the fastest game in town.  I'd really rather see the team make a decision like this now and then consider nerfs/buffs later on down the road instead of carrying on Paragon Studio's will and then revisiting in a year when all 5 sets are out.

 

(Neither here nor there, but I'd really like to see Force of Will's leaping power slightly reduced, the takeoff buff improved by the same amount, and then let Takeoff benefits apply even while Leaping isn't running, so you get some combat jumping-esque combat mobility along with a requirement to stay active to keep your overland speed comparable)

[Vanden]

2 hours ago, Replacement said:

Comparing to Super Speed: I get we have a precedent established of letting these Origin pools be just as good as old powers +1... but I feel like we could shave 5-10% off the speed of Speed of Sound.  Close enough to Super Speed to not functionally matter, but still letting Super Speed have the throne of being the fastest game in town.  I'd really rather see the team make a decision like this now and then consider nerfs/buffs later on down the road instead of carrying on Paragon Studio's will and then revisiting in a year when all 5 sets are out.

Super Speed still has its Stealth buff to give it a reason to be picked over Speed of Sound. Right now, the only origin travel power that's strictly better than its generic equivalent is Mighty Leap.

[Replacement]

2 hours ago, Vanden said:

Super Speed still has its Stealth buff to give it a reason to be picked over Speed of Sound. Right now, the only origin travel power that's strictly better than its generic equivalent is Mighty Leap.

I meant to mention that. Even with the stealth, I'd like to see SS have just enough of a speed edge to claim it's fastest. That's still ignoring the teleport...

[r0y]

On 3/14/2020 at 7:26 AM, JayboH said:

Yeah I questioned the toxic dart change on the alpha forums too, but perhaps it is best.  I was using it in a regular chain of charged bolts, lightning bolt, toxic dart, zapp, repeat.

I do not understand why attacks in pool powers are so weak.  One can take the first two powers (either or) at level 4; assuming one is an attack, the other something else (hover, mez prot, mystic flight, etc) - shouldn't this mean that any attack (T1 pool power, let's say) should be NEARLY equivalent with a T2-T3 attack power?  (T3 for attack primary, T2 for attack secondary)  Since that's about the time you decide, do I want my cone attack from the primary, or this single-target from the pool power?  Unless the attack has some excellent utility (hello, Air Superiority!) I am not sure why it would need nerfing (damage-wise).  Maybe add -res instead of damage; or, reduce damage to minor DoT, but give it a -10% res for 10s (a la Corruption from Demon Summoning)?  Then it'd be a great utility and meh damage, so as not to compete with primary/secondary attacks.

[Replacement]

22 minutes ago, r0y said:

I do not understand why attacks in pool powers are so weak.  One can take the first two powers (either or) at level 4; assuming one is an attack, the other something else (hover, mez prot, mystic flight, etc) - shouldn't this mean that any attack (T1 pool power, let's say) should be NEARLY equivalent with a T2-T3 attack power?  (T3 for attack primary, T2 for attack secondary)  Since that's about the time you decide, do I want my cone attack from the primary, or this single-target from the pool power?  Unless the attack has some excellent utility (hello, Air Superiority!) I am not sure why it would need nerfing (damage-wise).  Maybe add -res instead of damage; or, reduce damage to minor DoT, but give it a -10% res for 10s (a la Corruption from Demon Summoning)?  Then it'd be a great utility and meh damage, so as not to compete with primary/secondary attacks.

Remember: this game holds Boxing and Hasten as equivalent. Take a look at just about any optimized build and tell me how much sense that makes...

 

... But I understand not making waves until you're ready to do a full "Pool attack" revision wave.

[warlyx]

On 3/14/2020 at 8:18 AM, r0y said:

I always liked how Champions did teleport:  fade color out, fast fly (intangible) for a few seconds, re-emerge hovering a few seconds, then fall/gravity (giving enough time to hit the TP key again).

what? champions teleport sucks , its fast speed flying with intangible ....thats not a teleport and all the time i played CO i was misisng COH teleport 😄 

 

jaunt on the other side it was teleport should have been all the time instant , and able to be chained back to back  , yeah endurance is an issue , while SS , Fly or jump dont have this , but thats the price u pay for being able to teleport around , i wouldnt mind having teleport work like jaunt , even if it has a CD attached after being chained (hover while Cds comes back) and keep going ,or u can wait a bit btw teleports , but having both options of chaining or waiting to choose where u wanna teleport....

 

1 hour ago, r0y said:

I do not understand why attacks in pool powers are so weak.  One can take the first two powers (either or) at level 4; assuming one is an attack, the other something else (hover, mez prot, mystic flight, etc) - shouldn't this mean that any attack (T1 pool power, let's say) should be NEARLY equivalent with a T2-T3 attack power?  (T3 for attack primary, T2 for attack secondary)  Since that's about the time you decide, do I want my cone attack from the primary, or this single-target from the pool power?  Unless the attack has some excellent utility (hello, Air Superiority!) I am not sure why it would need nerfing (damage-wise).  Maybe add -res instead of damage; or, reduce damage to minor DoT, but give it a -10% res for 10s (a la Corruption from Demon Summoning)?  Then it'd be a great utility and meh damage, so as not to compete with primary/secondary attacks.

 

yeah that agree with ....some of this need some love badly 

 

 

now the elephant on the room Hasten....

Edited March 16, 2020 by warlyx

[Bossk_Hogg]

5 hours ago, Replacement said:

Remember: this game holds Boxing and Hasten as equivalent. Take a look at just about any optimized build and tell me how much sense that makes...

 

... But I understand not making waves until you're ready to do a full "Pool attack" revision wave.

That's old design from devs that didn't understand basic math.

 

All the pools need their recharge doubled and damage to go up accordingly. I don't need a sub 1 second boxing, I need something that's worth the animation time/slotting. Nerfing the dart to the current pitiful standards will just create another dud power. 

[Bopper]

34 minutes ago, Bossk_Hogg said:

All the pools need their recharge doubled and damage to go up accordingly. I don't need a sub 1 second boxing, I need something that's worth the animation time/slotting. Nerfing the dart to the current pitiful standards will just create another dud power. 

I have to agree, I'm disappointed by the Dart reduction too. It's funny (to me), I often looked at Experimentation's numbers on City of Data before it came to Beta and thought, there is no way they can make Dart that powerful (it had a 1.661 damage scale on a 6 sec recharge with 1.07 sec cast time). So when it came to Beta I was pleasantly surprised that the damage was reduced to something that seemed fair and useful. But now, it once again becomes to weak for me to consider going out of my way for. That's the trouble I have with the origin sets, they have some very enticing T3 powers, but requires 2 things I don't want to get them (or atleast one thing I don't want, I actually like Spirit Ward). 

[Super Homer]

In one hand: the initial version of toxic dart could do some nice damage and would had replaced almost all my blast t1/t2s.

On the other hand: the initial version of toxic dart was so good I would had felt FORCED to replace my t1/t2 blasts with it and shoe-horn it into all my builds. Hell, maybe the same on tankers or brutes, since now they can use ranged attacks.

 

Pool powers should have great utility, not be so good you feel they need to replace your most basic primary/secondary set attack powers. Perfect example of a not-so-good attack with good utility: Air Superiority.

[ScarySai]

I personally love jaunt more than ever after this round of changes, and find that a standard teleport keybind of shift+click solves most issues with using it on the go.

 

I also see no reason to nerf it's speed, with the limited selection of power pools already, and the fact that most builds already take hasten, it's already hard enough to grab the experiment pool, much less a somewhat redundant travel power like Jaunt.

 

The dart was overnerfed, though. It should be wanted in some builds, not entirely worthless outside of theme. Remember when the -res in Force of Will was nerfed? It went from good in some builds to downright useless.

Edited March 16, 2020 by ScarySai

[Bossk_Hogg]

7 minutes ago, Super Homer said:

In one hand: the initial version of toxic dart could do some nice damage and would had replaced almost all my blast t1/t2s.

On the other hand: the initial version of toxic dart was so good I would had felt FORCED to replace my t1/t2 blasts with it and shoe-horn it into all my builds. Hell, maybe the same on tankers or brutes, since now they can use ranged attacks.

 

Pool powers should have great utility, not be so good you feel they need to replace your most basic primary/secondary set attack powers. Perfect example of a not-so-good attack with good utility: Air Superiority.

So what if it can replace your T2? They SHOULD be able to completely replace a T2!

 

Pool attacks cost slots, a power pick, and a pool choice. Those are significant opportunity costs. If you pay that, the net result should NOT be "worse than what you already could have taken". The original devs didnt even think to take animation time into account. They were so crappy at balance that their DPS calculator was spamming the same attack over and over, without considering an attack chain.

What's the worry? That some controllers might solo slightly less pathetically? Stop punishing people for making flavor/fluff choices. There's no good reason to keep the original devs poor design choices.

[Super Homer]

1 minute ago, Bossk_Hogg said:

So what if it can replace your T2? They SHOULD be able to completely replace a T2!

It was better than quite a few T2s, maybe better than all blaster T2s. I should never feel that sticking to my chosen primary/secondary forces me into a gimped build! I would argue its still too good. Its bad enough that not taking Hasten will always make me feel I'm underperforming, we dont need more "need to take" pool powers.

[Replacement]

This is why I was saying, I get making it in-line with the other crappy pool attacks for now if they intend to make a pass down the road and generally increase most of their recharge and damage scales.

 

I think we all agree that it's an asinine relic of a bygone era to have to make the player choose multiple pointless picks just to diversify themselves.  But starting with just 1 pool attack (like the dart of topic) without also doing a pass on flurry, jump kick, etc, is just asking for intervening months of everyone choosing just that one attack in every build.

[Bossk_Hogg]

18 minutes ago, Super Homer said:

It was better than quite a few T2s, maybe better than all blaster T2s. I should never feel that sticking to my chosen primary/secondary forces me into a gimped build! I would argue its still too good. Its bad enough that not taking Hasten will always make me feel I'm underperforming, we dont need more "need to take" pool powers.

No it really wasnt. It's a DOT, which is a negative and as a result had higher damage. Did it beat Gloom? If not, then there was no reason to adjust it. Now it doesnt even beat Gloom on a mastermind. 

 

There's no secondary effect, no defiance build up, and you lose any combo mechanics. Plus you can't activate it while mezzed.

 

Air Superiority, your supposed baseline, is also a junk power not worth slotting. So I guess they're all consistent in their worthlessness. Devs - please make pool powers worth taking and slotting. There's no reason for them to be DPS losses given the opportunity cost. It deals less than half the DPA of the nemesis staff and blackwand and we get those for free. Animation time is an opportunity cost as well.

[Super Homer]

1 hour ago, Bossk_Hogg said:

No it really wasnt. It's a DOT, which is a negative and as a result had higher damage. Did it beat Gloom? If not, then there was no reason to adjust it.

Dont remember the numbers right now, but yes, it had better damage per activation time than gloom, on a blaster anyways.

[Bossk_Hogg]

29 minutes ago, Super Homer said:

Dont remember the numbers right now, but yes, it had better damage per activation time than gloom, on a blaster anyways.

Well, its roughly 80% of Gloom, making it effectively a non-choice. So yay for the nerfherders I guess.

[Frosticus]

What purpose do pool attacks even serve? 

If pool attacks are so ostensibly bad that no one uses them in an attack chain then to what purpose do they even exist?

 

Air superiority at least has some function as a control power. 

Cross punch is pretty good, but pays out the nose with 2 other useless attacks required.

Flurry? Jump Kick?

 

New Attacks:

arcane bolt? so slow

project will? so slow

 

Even my trollers barely ever use them and you get double damage and trollers have no "attacks" for the most part.

 

I'd say pool attacks are in the same realm as petless MM's.

[Replacement]

I feel like Donnie in the background, saying "I am the Walrus?" over and over again.

 

The problem isn't in having Toxic Dart good enough to replace a t1/2 power (and thus better than some) -- the problem is it being the only pool attack that performs that well, which leads to things like people taking the pool just for an optimized build, origin and theme be damned.

 

I'm not saying there's a right or wrong way to go about fixing the disparity it's either a) you make it awesome now and super-serious-pinky-promise to fix the other pools soon, as in like a half a year or b) you tweak it to be as suck as the rest of the pool attacks for now and let them all be meh until you find the time to do a full pass as a batch.

[siolfir]

7 hours ago, Replacement said:

I feel like Donnie in the background, saying "I am the Walrus?" over and over again.

 

The problem isn't in having Toxic Dart good enough to replace a t1/2 power (and thus better than some) -- the problem is it being the only pool attack that performs that well, which leads to things like people taking the pool just for an optimized build, origin and theme be damned.

 

I'm not saying there's a right or wrong way to go about fixing the disparity it's either a) you make it awesome now and super-serious-pinky-promise to fix the other pools soon, as in like a half a year or b) you tweak it to be as suck as the rest of the pool attacks for now and let them all be meh until you find the time to do a full pass as a batch.

Okay, if you're going to min/max this, which pool are you dropping to take Experimentation because Toxic Dart is nearly as good as a t2 attack?