Improving the Utility of Sleeps

[Galaxy Brain]

28 minutes ago, AgentForest said:

Every sleep move should have some secondary effect unique to it or its set.

Mind Control sleep moves should deal a burst of bonus damage if the target is forcibly woken up.  I suggest this for Mind Control because it has a hard time dealing damage compared to other controller sets, so it would give their Containment a hand.
Sonic Blast's sleep move should lower enemy resistance by a decent amount, lingering after they wake up.
Spore Burst should lower the target's Damage output significantly when awakened.
Salt Crystals already has a defense debuff, but that could be made stronger to make it as strong as the other suggestions.

Ice Control and Ice Melee AoE sleep effects should cause a large recharge/speed debuff.

It's been suggested already, but it's definitely the easiest idea to incorporate into the game.

I like this train of thought to make each sleep power a bit more potent as a general tool if the sleep portion is tricky to balance. Look at Static Field for example with how it also causes severe end drain.

[Blackfeather]

1 hour ago, AgentForest said:

Every sleep move should have some secondary effect unique to it or its set.

Mind Control sleep moves should deal a burst of bonus damage if the target is forcibly woken up.  I suggest this for Mind Control because it has a hard time dealing damage compared to other controller sets, so it would give their Containment a hand.
Sonic Blast's sleep move should lower enemy resistance by a decent amount, lingering after they wake up.
Spore Burst should lower the target's Damage output significantly when awakened.
Salt Crystals already has a defense debuff, but that could be made stronger to make it as strong as the other suggestions.

Ice Control and Ice Melee AoE sleep effects should cause a large recharge/speed debuff.

It's been suggested already, but it's definitely the easiest idea to incorporate into the game.

Definitely some kinds of additions would be nice - debuffs are helpful for sure, though I do think that being able to improve the amount of control that different sleeps provide would be useful as well. So adding onto that:

• Mesmerize/Mass Hypnosis/Siren's Song/Spore Burst: implement the suggestion of making enemies knocked down when they're slept, meaning that they'll need to get back up once they wake up - all of these powers seem designed around physically putting an enemy to sleep, so it makes sense for them
• Salt Crystals/Glacier: implement a more durable sleep, reducing the duration with which a sleep lasts for depending on damage dealt/attacks received. These powers are based around trapping others in fragile prisons, so I think it'd make sense for them.

[AgentForest]

6 minutes ago, Blackfeather said:

Definitely some kinds of additions would be nice - debuffs are helpful for sure, though I do think that being able to improve the amount of control that different sleeps provide would be useful as well. So adding onto that:

• Mesmerize/Mass Hypnosis/Siren's Song/Spore Burst: implement the suggestion of making enemies knocked down when they're slept, meaning that they'll need to get back up once they wake up - all of these powers seem designed around physically putting an enemy to sleep, so it makes sense for them
• Salt Crystals/Glacier: implement a more durable sleep, reducing the duration with which a sleep lasts for depending on damage dealt/attacks received. These powers are based around trapping others in fragile prisons, so I think it'd make sense for them.

This reminds me of a suggestion I had for Forcefields > Containment Field.

Make the power apply a sleep/hold that has an absorb HP bar, say for the sake of demonstration, 100 HP absorb.  If you break that barrier, the containment field implodes, collapsing in on them for 150 damage but ending the cc.  This would use it as a sort of "target painting" mechanic instead of just a "welp, can't hurt him now, how annoying..." power.  I also suggested making Force Bolt penetrate and lower defenses, and have significant bonus damage against absorb shields, specifically to help the Forcefielder break the containment field.

If something like that was done for the "stuck in something" sleep powers like Salt Crystals and Flash Freeze, that would be great.  The knockdown mechanic for the other "actual sleep" sleep moves is great too.

[Blackfeather]

3 minutes ago, AgentForest said:

This reminds me of a suggestion I had for Forcefields > Containment Field.

Make the power apply a sleep/hold that has an absorb HP bar, say for the sake of demonstration, 100 HP absorb.  If you break that barrier, the containment field implodes, collapsing in on them for 150 damage but ending the cc.  This would use it as a sort of "target painting" mechanic instead of just a "welp, can't hurt him now, how annoying..." power.  I also suggested making Force Bolt penetrate and lower defenses, and have significant bonus damage against absorb shields, specifically to help the Forcefielder break the containment field.

If something like that was done for the "stuck in something" sleep powers like Salt Crystals and Flash Freeze, that would be great.  The knockdown mechanic for the other "actual sleep" sleep moves is great too.

Something along those lines for Salt Crystals/Flash Freeze would be nice, yes. Not sure how it'd be calculated, but probably something to do with duration would be a good start, since they're long and enhanceable. The 'less fragile sleep' idea was kind of inspired by CO's "hold" (in quotations) - basically the duration of holds in that game were reduced when an enemy was damaged. I thought it'd make sense for some Sleeps to adopt that.

[Replacement]

Novel concept: Sleeps give a large debuff resistance debuff, as well as mez resistance debuff. In essence, everything against them is power boosted.

 

This should persist after they awake, and I still adamantly believe we need 1-2 echoes like I mentioned on the first page.

 

This would have the net effect of a lot of what @AgentForest was suggesting: the secondary effects of these sets would naturally amp up, as would the endurance drain on Electric attacks (mind control is still a wreck).

 

There's an obvious fear surrounding power boosts -- they have a lot of potential to distort things in unexpected ways. Adding it as an effect like this, where it wears off within ~3 seconds of being slept, would be a good way to keep it from getting out of control.

[Tugzug]

I like a lot of the ideas posted here so far. Rather than echo them, I'll add another idea, though perhaps one people might not all like: removing the damage component of Mesmerize. This is of course assuming that damage will still break sleep after any other changes are implemented. The reason being that Controllers cannot readily give naptime to bosses like Dominators can, and you can't stack sleep if one of them inflicts damage.

 

Edit: forgot to add, if the damage is removed from Mesmerize, then Mind Control will probably need an overall damage buff (it kinda does anyways, but y'know).

Edited March 27, 2020 by Tugzug

[Vanden]

3 hours ago, Tugzug said:

I like a lot of the ideas posted here so far. Rather than echo them, I'll add another idea, though perhaps one people might not all like: removing the damage component of Mesmerize. This is of course assuming that damage will still break sleep after any other changes are implemented. The reason being that Controllers cannot readily give naptime to bosses like Dominators can, and you can't stack sleep if one of them inflicts damage.

 

Edit: forgot to add, if the damage is removed from Mesmerize, then Mind Control will probably need an overall damage buff (it kinda does anyways, but y'know).

Mesmerize works on bosses in one shot even without an Overpower.

[Blackfeather]

It's a mag 3.5 sleep to my knowledge, making it quite useful for sure.

[Yomo Kimyata]

I can imagine that sleeps used in a zerg team setting would be less than ideal, but when soloing or in small teams that understand sleep, it's arguably overpowered.  

[Blackfeather]

5 hours ago, 5099y_74c05 said:

This is my favorite suggestion in this thread. The CO Paralyze comment is also interesting but may be a challenge to implement in this game.

 

I don't want to see sleeps become clones of Electric Control's Sleep over Time patch. This is boring design and a boring fix. At least not for an across the board fix. Instead of a universal sleep change, what is suggested above would help maintain balance among sets who already posses high control availability and access (e.g. Earth Control) vs sets who do not (e.g. Ice Control). A blanket change would only maintain the disparity. Tweaking sleep side effects is a more calibrated response, allowing you to fine tune sleeps for sets that are under-tuned.

I actually proposed something similar in the original post!

On 3/16/2020 at 1:25 AM, Blackfeather said:

Neat Additional Points and Suggestions

• @ScarySai suggested making enemies go prone (Knockdown) once they're hit with a powerful enough Sleep, meaning that they'd need to get back up before returning to the fight once woken up. I like this suggestion a lot! Not only does it make thematic sense to make an enemy sleep on the ground, but it's also an effect that I wouldn't be too bothered by if a Sleep hit my character as well. Additionally, it'd provide a nice way of identifying which enemies have been put to sleep by seeing them prone on the floor.
  • Building on this, perhaps different kinds of Sleeps ought to have different kinds of potential effects. While putting enemies to the floor makes sense for powers which cause unconsciousness (e.g. Siren's Song, Mass Hypnosis), it makes less sense for powers which trap enemies in a fragile prison (e.g. Salt Crystals). In these cases, having a Sleep's duration merely shorten with damage instead of disappearing entirely might make sense. Blind's Sleep effect could also lower perception/ToHit for example.

[Elizabeth Ashlee]

Sleep powers would be very viable if they did something like force enemies powers to set to a 'used state'. So like you sleep a crowd and it forces all their abilities into recharge, meaning they only have a delay of a couple seconds or so... in most cases. Where it would be super handy is combined with -recharge abilities, the pairing able to shut an enemy down quite fast, or sleeps used in succession to hold enemies in a state of inability to take action. My favorite use for this would be prevention of powers like moment of glory. If you opened with a sleep attack those annoying paragon protectors would have their moment of glory power placed on recharge, Illusionists decoys and copies on recharge when the fight starts, meaning it takes the ability out of the fight entirely. Like any change this could be insanely game breaking if many things were not taken into account.

The only other idea I personally have is if disorient and sleep were merged into a 'dazed' effect and become one in the same.

Edited April 11, 2020 by Elizabeth Ashlee

[Redlynne]

59 minutes ago, Elizabeth Ashlee said:

The only other idea I personally have is if disorient and sleep were merged into a 'dazed' effect and become one in the same.

So ... sleep walkers ... ??

[Blackfeather]

1 hour ago, Elizabeth Ashlee said:

Sleep powers would be very viable if they did something like force enemies powers to set to a 'used state'. So like you sleep a crowd and it forces all their abilities into recharge, meaning they only have a delay of a couple seconds or so... in most cases. Where it would be super handy is combined with -recharge abilities, the pairing able to shut an enemy down quite fast, or sleeps used in succession to hold enemies in a state of inability to take action. My favorite use for this would be prevention of powers like moment of glory. If you opened with a sleep attack those annoying paragon protectors would have their moment of glory power placed on recharge, Illusionists decoys and copies on recharge when the fight starts, meaning it takes the ability out of the fight entirely. Like any change this could be insanely game breaking if many things were not taken into account.

The only other idea I personally have is if disorient and sleep were merged into a 'dazed' effect and become one in the same.

Actually, I think Captain Powerhouse mentioned something like your proposal a while back!

[Elizabeth Ashlee]

Hah, cool. Nice find, and glad someone else sees it as something to improve 😄

[twozerofoxtrot]

Apparently AVs have very low sleep resist?

 

Was in a MLTF yesterday where Ghost Widow was kept asleep with Static Field until we were done with Black Scorpion.

 

Not sure just how much this affects most AV fights, but worth noting if Sleeps were to get secondary effects.

[Blackfeather]

1 minute ago, twozerofoxtrot said:

Apparently AVs have very low sleep resist?

 

Was in a MLTF yesterday where Ghost Widow was kept asleep with Static Field until we were done with Black Scorpion.

 

Not sure just how much this affects most AV fights, but worth noting if Sleeps were to get secondary effects.

Correct - AVs have no special resistance to Sleeps and Immobilises.

[Spectre7878]

I for one love how electric control sleep power works. I have been wanting my plant control to get the same mechanics. It works great. Nothing is worse the putting foes to sleep just to be awakened right away

[tidge]

On 4/11/2020 at 5:23 PM, Elizabeth Ashlee said:

Sleep powers would be very viable if they did something like force enemies powers to set to a 'used state'. So like you sleep a crowd and it forces all their abilities into recharge, meaning they only have a delay of a couple seconds or so... in most cases. Where it would be super handy is combined with -recharge abilities, the pairing able to shut an enemy down quite fast, or sleeps used in succession to hold enemies in a state of inability to take action.

I just grabbed this post to comment on... but just wait until the Devouring Earth get this (or any of the proposed) updates!

[ZeeHero]

Becuase nerfing aoe is totally going to improve the game... slow clap with eyeroll...

 

Aoe is almost synomymous with character power in this game. leave it alone, and give sets (not stalker) which have very little (Energy melee for instance) more effective aoe.

 

If sleep works poorly with aoe, fix sleep, dont ruin aoe. I agree with Agent Forest, each set sleep should do its own secondary thing.

[ZeeHero]

6 hours ago, tidge said:

I just grabbed this post to comment on... but just wait until the Devouring Earth get this (or any of the proposed) updates!

If that change is made it would be playerside only. ez fix. sleep is actually fine as it is on NPCs, its when players use it its trash.

[biostem]

Sleeps should apply a "vulnerable" debuff to the target.  Such a debuff only persists for a very short period of time after they wake up, but imparts a massive damage resist debuff.

[Naraka]

21 minutes ago, biostem said:

Sleeps should apply a "vulnerable" debuff to the target.  Such a debuff only persists for a very short period of time after they wake up, but imparts a massive damage resist debuff.

It's always gotta be damage resist debuff...

 

Probably because the meta demands it.

 

Personally and conceptually, imparting a strong resistance debuff to mez effects seems more fitting, making it so mez effects linger far longer, even from a MA Scrapper or an EM Brute.  But then, that's not what the meta demands (more mez) but I feel it fits as a good 1-2 punch to lockdown a drowsy foe and give sleep powers an effective tactic to mitigate pesky foes rather than spreading huge DPS bursts unevenly (imagine Electric Melee with huge -res to damage on their sleeps).

[Blackfeather]

12 hours ago, tidge said:

I just grabbed this post to comment on... but just wait until the Devouring Earth get this (or any of the proposed) updates!

The symmetry of any changes to the Sleep status effects is definitely something to keep in mind. There are some secondary effects that I'd be more fine with being inflicted on my characters than others for example.