City of Heroes vs. Champions Online - The Data

[DoctorDitko]

DCUO, despite having plusses like Kevin Conroy's voice (he is the One True Batman after all), couldn't hold my interest either. It felt an awful lot like being at one of those slick amusement parks where every step is cleverly designed to fleece you of more money.

 

I always thought Champions was the best designed and executed tabletop Superhero RPG, all I ever wanted was computer assistance for all the die-rolling and bookkeeping. I was very disappointed in the MMO version, they seemed to have lost the good parts from the p&p game and not replaced it with anything worthwhile.

 

For all its flaws, CoH seemed to get the spirit of Superheroes right more than any of its rivals. From mission one you feel Super.

Not like Superman, but definitely more like a comic book hero than your average basement-rat-killing FRPG newb does an epic fantasy hero.

[Sovera]

2 hours ago, DoctorDitko said:

I'll never play WoW, can you elaborate?

 

2 hours ago, BasherBot said:

WoW uses tab targeting and a "Global Cooldown" (GCD) for it's combat system... it's one of the first to implement it iirc

 

basically you can only attack every 2 seconds (I might be wrong there), but not every skill has it's own internal cooldown to compensate (almost every class has a skill they can spam out to "fill" their GCD rotations while they wait on cooldowns). A couple years back they added a new stat called Haste that lowers cooldowns of some spells/abilities while also shortening your GCD wait time (with a minimum or a 1 second GCD iirc).

 

You're thinking of something else. WoW works on a 1.5 global cooldown system which means whatever we do (with some very minor exceptions that have been further removed 'recently') there will be a 1.5 second delay afterwards where we cannot use another skill. No animation lock whatsoever though so we can move whenever. But, caster classes have (on top of the 1.5 GCD) also casting times where if we move the casting is interrupted and the spell won't go off. These casts tend to be on the 1 second to 1.5 to 2 seconds depending on what class and spell.

 

Some (minor) exceptions to this were big cooldowns with 1 or 2 or 3 minutes cooldown that lasted for 10-15 seconds. Because of the 1.5 GCD eating into the 10-15 seconds they used to be off-GCD (not activating the 1.5 delay), but more 'recently' (AKA last year year, which is recent compared to WoW's age) the devs decided we had it too good and added them back to the GCD. Considering these big cooldowns tend to be stacked together it means wasted time. Suddenly the 10-15 seconds of buff time have 3 seconds eaten just waiting so we can attack.

 

Universally reviled decision but papa dev knows best.

 

Combat has been turned a lot into a game of procs. For example mages have a biiiig damage spell that takes 3 seconds to cast. That is way too long to hold still and casting two spells in the meanwhile will be better damage. But, by casting their basic filler spell they get some 20% (random numbers, don't quote me) chance of turning that big damage 3 second spell an instant cast. Being a 'good' player is a lot about being able to recognize when these procs go off and use them the moment that they do. Or keep them in case the fight requires movement (since mages cannot move and cast at the same time other than one spell that has a cooldown) so that when do have to move they can use that proc they had been saving.

 

 

For example. I play Hunters a lot since I loathe the you-can't-move-and-shoot system and Hunters can avoid it with the right spec. Combat for me would be. Start by casting a DoT. This DoT stacks three times, and we have three charges, but it expires faster than the DoT skill recharges. But we get a free charge with a proc when we autoattack. So the way to play is to cast the DoT, immediately use another skill that makes the pet dash to the enemy and do damage. Start using other skills. Keep an eye on the DoT. It expires in 10 seconds, so at around 9 seconds use the second charge.

 

Now the DoT skill does a lot of damage when it's at three stacks since it increases the attack speed of the pet, so you really want it at three stacks, and super important, you don't want to be caught with your pants down and let the three stacks drop off. This means being very accurate at firing the skill at 9 seconds. Not sooner, because you might get a draught of procs and the stacks will drop, but not after 9 seconds since it expires at 10 seconds.

 

Another skill recharges in 15 seconds. It's important to fire it the second it goes off recharge. Any seconds elapsing while not using it means less uses of the skill. BUT! Don't use it if the GCD will prevent you from using the DoT at 9 seconds!

 

The big damage attack recharges in 6 seconds. Again, religiously hit as soon as recharged, but, again, juggle not losing three DoT stacks. Wasting one second here, one second there, means at the end of the fight we fired the big skill as much as 5 or 10 less than the person who used it the moment it went off cooldown. To make things more interesting yet another skill will also have a chance to instantly recharge, and each time used will shave 1 second off the big attack skill, so in order to use -more- of the big attack you want to use the instant recharge procs of the other attack to shave 1 second off, which means not letting the procs accumulate. If we did not use the proc and we get another proc they do not stack, it's wasted, so it needs to be fired off immediately! BUT DON'T LET THE THREE STACKS DROP!

 

😄

 

AoE adds another layer. The basic AoE skill of the Beastmaster is almost useless. It does about auto-shot damage. BUT. At level 50 it gets an upgrade where when used the pet will start doing cleave damage and that is where the AoE comes from. The cleaving lasts four seconds. So we don't want to spam the Hunter's AoE skill (since it does crap damage and it's a waste to even press the button on less than 7 targets) but we don't want the pet to stop AoEing. So every four seconds the Hunter uses it -once- to activate the pet's cleaving. While, of course, keeping all the above happening in terms of DoT stacks, using procs to not let them go to waste, etc.

 

 

 

It sounds super confusing and complicated but we can configure addons to put all the information on the screen. A reason I disliked trying to use Psi Melee mechanic of Insight is the lack of this. There is a tiny icon ticking, no numbers, we need to memorize when it started, how many seconds passed. And for very little reward (ignoring the Insight mechanic turns out to be the same damage as using it).

 

I rather like WoW combat. No 20 buttons to keep track of and being 'good' is being capable of moving out of telegraphed attacks, but still able to keep track of things like different procs, use them, don't waste them, keep track of DoTs, don't let them drop, use personal defenses and self heals to survive, etc.

 

In a raid the normal way of it going is people starting to die. They messed up, they were looking at their cooldowns (or at the chat, or at Nerflix) and did not see the boss mechanic spawn under them. So to me it was a point of pride to survive until the end at the point where the raid leader goes 'okay, too many people died, we won't be able to clear. Throw yourself at the boss and die so we can start over' and I'm still up and alive, and most likely in the top three in the damage out of 20 persons (around 12-13 being damage dealers).

 

This is, of course, all min maxed raid stuff. Normal play needs nearly nothing of this as it happens so fast there is no need to worry about stacks and keeping them up.

[DoctorDitko]

Uh, "WoW!" That sounds like an awful lot of work.

Thanks for the explanation. I can see why my WoW-addicted friends don't get the same endorphin rush from CoH.

For me, I think I'm where I belong.

 

[wolfshadow31]

38 minutes ago, DoctorDitko said:

Uh, "WoW!" That sounds like an awful lot of work.

Thanks for the explanation. I can see why my WoW-addicted friends don't get the same endorphin rush from CoH.

For me, I think I'm where I belong.

 

You and I both DD!

[Hyperstrike]

On 8/2/2020 at 6:54 PM, DoctorDitko said:

Uh, "WoW!" That sounds like an awful lot of work.

Thanks for the explanation. I can see why my WoW-addicted friends don't get the same endorphin rush from CoH.

For me, I think I'm where I belong.

 

 

On 8/2/2020 at 7:33 PM, wolfshadow31 said:

You and I both DD!

Ditto...

[Sovera]

I understand what you guys are saying (though it's not as bad as it looks once you actually play it instead of reading about it), but compared to CoH it does add a layer of making things interesting.

 

CoH is 1, 2 ,3 ,4, 1, 2, 3, 4, 1, 2, 3, 4. We could almost macro or autokey it and not pay any more attention to combat.

[Latex]

I think it's important to take a step back and weigh up what made City of Heroes have such a hardcore fanbase. It's quite unlike anything I've seen in any other MMO's (maaaaybe except Star Wars Galaxies), critique is sharp in today's world but people who play City of Heroes absolutely swear by it and they love the game and won't ever stop loving it- blinded by passion in a way, I feel.

 

I must of played 2k hours in Champions Online I'm even lifetime subbed but never play it now why? It's too cartoonish, too colorful, too... comical, ironic I guess but then I prefer The Watchmen over The Avengers by a long shot. The game lacked much rigidity and the atmosphere was lacking, City of Heroes oozes atmosphere that strikes the same gold vein as early World of Warcraft, despite the graphics it had atmosphere and that is extremely important I feel.

 

CoH takes itself a lot more seriously than CO too, Champions is a constant bombardment of puns and clichés that really grate after the third-fourth-fifth time seeing them. CoH actually feels more adult but has the charm of something that's great for casual enjoyment too. You can go deep into the political spectrum of Praetoria just to name one major thing that is very adult in nature, it seems to me it's a commentary on Orwellian 1984 perfection, people who blitz through the story won't bother to recognize the similarities, or care much. There isn't really anything like this or other mature themes in CO, it's just pun, pun, pun, bam, smash, boop.

 

Freeform in CO ended up just being 'take these cookie cutter powers to be optimal' CoH actually forces you to accept a powersets weaknesses and trade them off for something else, though cookie cutter here is Spines/Fire Brutes (which didn't exist in the live game). However it was CO's strength too, it's a great game for absolute hardcore min/max, sometimes you might even set a new 'meta' trend by figuring out a synergy no one thought of.

 

Costume creator was just outright better than CoH, more options by far, more outfit items by far, more customization and catering to all walks of character.

Combat was worse in my opinion despite CoH feeling incredibly clunky at times, lack of an auto attack is very different to almost every other MMORPG.

Story and atmosphere aids to immersion which was one of CoH's strengths and CO's weaknesses.

Better group content in CoH, by far. 8 man teams by default made -every- outing in a group pretty much a raid by modern standards, fun stuff.

 

CoH is the better game but CO definitely does some things better.

[ForeverLaxx]

On 8/2/2020 at 6:54 PM, DoctorDitko said:

Uh, "WoW!" That sounds like an awful lot of work.

Thanks for the explanation. I can see why my WoW-addicted friends don't get the same endorphin rush from CoH.

For me, I think I'm where I belong.

 

It also varies greatly by class and spec. I was a rogue main in WoW all the way back in Vanilla and played WoW during my "breaks" with CoH (and to get my PvP fix). I played up through Legion (no longer the latest expansion, of course). During Wrath of the Lich King, almost all specs were in a "GCD Locked" state where you cycled buttons in a rotation the moment they came off cooldown and never had a moment where you weren't pushing something. Like, you'd press 1,2,1,3,4, repeating without having to stop or even manage resources. The devs didn't like it and slowly added abilities, culled abilities, then replaced it all with a heavy proc-based system.

 

Most of the specs became a "hit the glowing button" game where you only used an attack because it made another attack light up sometimes, so the trick was to optimize your "bad" attacks to avoid losing DPS while you waited for things to light up and click. Tanks were much less complicated than this and healers fell somewhere in between.

[kiramon]

CO hd a bad launch. And had a period of good times. And has been on a deathbed since they lost their sub model.  That being said, CO was a lot of fun for a long time for me,  just doing random characters etc. The problem really is the cookie-cutterness of it. You basically had buckets to fill - which CoH has within each powerset, but CO only had certain powers of certain types to fill those buckets.

 

And the lack of buffs/debuffs/controls weren't very fun. You also weren't able to feel very super (aka overpowered) in CO if you didn't invest time into understanding items, which the game didn't make that very easy to do until, well, you spent time thinking about it.

 

I think a lot of people couldn't get past a lot of that, so they never got to fully understand it. I have like 12 level 50s on CO that all do very well, but it took a long time into the games life before it all really clicked. I havent played it in over a year now, but yeah. A lot of people that talk badly about it didn't really play it, and that's fine. First impressions are lasting impressions. 

[Apparition]

Many of my friends couldn’t stand the cartoony look of Champions Online.  The few that did left after the launch day nerf patch.

[nightroarer]

14 hours ago, Sovera said:

I understand what you guys are saying (though it's not as bad as it looks once you actually play it instead of reading about it), but compared to CoH it does add a layer of making things interesting.

 

CoH is 1, 2 ,3 ,4, 1, 2, 3, 4, 1, 2, 3, 4. We could almost macro or autokey it and not pay any more attention to combat.

CoH is only that way if you choose to play it that way. There is not a power in my trays that does not get used. Some get used less often than others, but they allow for greater tactical options and variance in combat. Between CoH and CO, I'll take the CoH combat system any time. There are powers from CO that I wish CoH had, and vice versa (when I played CO). CO has the edge in variety of costume patterns and being able to select multiple colors on the costume parts.

 

Between the two games, I think CoH is by far the most fun. Having access to both games right now, I have no motivation to play CO. It just can't hold my interest the way CoH does when it comes to gameplay and immersion.

[Sovera]

1 minute ago, nightroarer said:

CoH is only that way if you choose to play it that way. There is not a power in my trays that does not get used. Some get used less often than others, but they allow for greater tactical options and variance in combat. Between CoH and CO, I'll take the CoH combat system any time. There are powers from CO that I wish CoH had, and vice versa (when I played CO). CO has the edge in variety of costume patterns and being able to select multiple colors on the costume parts.

 

Between the two games, I think CoH is by far the most fun. Having access to both games right now, I have no motivation to play CO. It just can't hold my interest the way CoH does when it comes to gameplay and immersion.

That argument appears similar to one I had a few months back. I pointed how Claws does an AoE rotation of FU, Spin, Shockwave, and was told they did not care about 'boring' three button rotations.

 

I accept you can choose to play as you wish to do it, but in most any character the rotation is down to:

 

- Extra hard hitting skill we wish to hit on CD (Assassin's Strike for example) -> fillers until that hard hitting skill has recharged. Any more attacks are not needed, any fewer and there will be thumb twiddling waiting for the skills to finish recharging.

 

Choosing to use more skills other than that is your prerogative, but we can say this of any other game. Even WoW with its reduced button usage (reviled by others, but appreciated by me who played it in the heyday of four skillsbars) also has a number of slows and stuns and etc. But the basic rotation does not involve them. There will be something like seven buttons total for a priority system where CoH works on the old system of rotation.

[Jaguaratron]

They minimized their market by forcing a parody of "heroes" onto the players and there is no way to get away from this. Its stupid to have gone for such a weird humour niche as it alienates those who dont want to play Adam West Batman.

[DoctorDitko]

But... Adam West Spider-man just wouldn't work at all!

[MyriVerse]

19 hours ago, Latex said:

I must of played 2k hours in Champions Online I'm even lifetime subbed but never play it now why? It's too cartoonish, too colorful, too... comical, ironic I guess but then I prefer The Watchmen over The Avengers by a long shot. The game lacked much rigidity and the atmosphere was lacking, City of Heroes oozes atmosphere that strikes the same gold vein as early World of Warcraft, despite the graphics it had atmosphere and that is extremely important I feel.

 

CoH takes itself a lot more seriously than CO too, Champions is a constant bombardment of puns and clichés that really grate after the third-fourth-fifth time seeing them. CoH actually feels more adult but has the charm of something that's great for casual enjoyment too. You can go deep into the political spectrum of Praetoria just to name one major thing that is very adult in nature, it seems to me it's a commentary on Orwellian 1984 perfection, people who blitz through the story won't bother to recognize the similarities, or care much. There isn't really anything like this or other mature themes in CO, it's just pun, pun, pun, bam, smash, boop.

To each their own, but these are definite wins for CO, imo. And honestly, these facets of CoH are every bit as clichéd as CO. There's very little depth to the Praetoria stuff, and it's what we've all seen a hundred times.

[d4verman]

On 8/5/2020 at 8:45 AM, Apparition said:

Many of my friends couldn’t stand the cartoony look of Champions Online.  The few that did left after the launch day nerf patch.

One of the biggest problems in CO (for me at least) is once you max out a character you have done pretty much all of the content.  There's not a lot of it and the zones aren't all that great either. (Does anyone ever go to Lemuria?). The nemesis system sounded like fun but only once did I get to "end" of the nemesis with one character. That's not even that great as you have to have a team of people to do it. Costume parts are behind a paywall. So are "lairs" (their version of bases) and they aren't even really customizable. 

[BZRKR]

One of my favorite things in CO gameplay-wise were the lunge melee attacks and the "jump away backflip" attack in dual pistols (the actual name eludes me, and I'm too lazy to look it up). I had a Pistols N' Melee character that constantly bounced in and out of melee range like a very hyper hyperactive thing, and that was tons of fun.

 

I actually liked Lemuria, and would spend time in the middle-depth kelp forest smacking fish and looking at the lighting effects. I also liked "Totally-Not-New-Orleans". But yes, after playing through the content (and the content gaps all around that volcano) I was so freaking tired of Anchorman. I had had really high hopes that CO was going to be CoX 2, and even bought that lifetime subscription based on how many years I had paid the monthly fee for CoX, but in the end when the loot boxes came in and the development slowed to a trickle I left.

 

Getting CoX back on Homecoming is literally the best thing, and I can't wait to see what's next.

[Solarverse]

What bothered me most about CO was two main things...
 

1. They never came out with an Energy Power Set (petty, I know, but my main has always been an Energy Based character, if I cannot recreate an Energy Blaster, I lose interest pretty fast)
2. And most of all, nobody teamed unless they used the queue system to fight the 5 minute battles.

 

When the game was new, people teamed regularly and played the actual content of the game, the stories. Back when you started the game in Canada (or the Desert) you teamed up often, it was great and I loved it. It had the CoH feel to it. Suddenly, they added the Queue system where you go in, kill the boss, rinse repeat for stupid high XP and that utterly killed the PvE experience for me. That pushed me to play solo (because I enjoyed the story arcs) which eventually pushed me to pure boredom. 

Any time I requested Energy Manipulation for the game, it was always met with, "We have energy, it's called Ice, Fire, Elec and Force" was the answer I got. They just didn't understand where I was coming from, which ultimately lead me to not understand where the game was coming from, which that plus the teaming issues equaled my exodus from the game.

 

City of Heroes promotes teaming like no other game I have ever played, and that is the primary reason I love this game with so much passion. This game puts the Multiplayer in the word MMO unlike no other game out there. And the majority of the player base for this game are people I would hang out with and drink a few with...which for me is rare, because I am not the world's biggest fan of people in every day life. This game brings forth like-minded people unlike any other...and for this, I will always have this community's back.
 

Edited August 27, 2020 by Solarverse

[nightroarer]

4 minutes ago, Solarverse said:

City of Heroes promotes teaming like no other game I have ever played, and that is the primary reason I love this game with so much passion. This game puts the Multiplayer in the word MMO unlike no other game out there. And the majority of the player base for this game are people I would hang out with and drink a few with...which for me is rare, because I am not the world's biggest fan of people in every day life. This game brings forth like-minded people unlike any other...and for this, I will always have this community's back.
 

One great thing about CoH is how it appeals to so many playstyles. One of the things that drew me to it originally and is true today is that I can solo or play with my family to my heart's content. I'm not much one for big groups, but CoH offers the flexibility to play how you want.

[Myrmidon]

On 8/2/2020 at 6:54 PM, DoctorDitko said:

Uh, "WoW!" That sounds like an awful lot of work.

Thanks for the explanation. I can see why my WoW-addicted friends don't get the same endorphin rush from CoH.

For me, I think I'm where I belong.

 

Same here.

[Shred Monkey]

On 8/2/2020 at 6:47 PM, Sovera said:

 

You're thinking of something else. WoW works on a 1.5 global cooldown system which means whatever we do (with some very minor exceptions that have been further removed 'recently') there will be a 1.5 second delay afterwards where we cannot use another skill. No animation lock whatsoever though so we can move whenever. But, caster classes have (on top of the 1.5 GCD) also casting times where if we move the casting is interrupted and the spell won't go off. These casts tend to be on the 1 second to 1.5 to 2 seconds depending on what class and spell.

 

Some (minor) exceptions to this were big cooldowns with 1 or 2 or 3 minutes cooldown that lasted for 10-15 seconds. Because of the 1.5 GCD eating into the 10-15 seconds they used to be off-GCD (not activating the 1.5 delay), but more 'recently' (AKA last year year, which is recent compared to WoW's age) the devs decided we had it too good and added them back to the GCD. Considering these big cooldowns tend to be stacked together it means wasted time. Suddenly the 10-15 seconds of buff time have 3 seconds eaten just waiting so we can attack.

 

Universally reviled decision but papa dev knows best.

 

Combat has been turned a lot into a game of procs. For example mages have a biiiig damage spell that takes 3 seconds to cast. That is way too long to hold still and casting two spells in the meanwhile will be better damage. But, by casting their basic filler spell they get some 20% (random numbers, don't quote me) chance of turning that big damage 3 second spell an instant cast. Being a 'good' player is a lot about being able to recognize when these procs go off and use them the moment that they do. Or keep them in case the fight requires movement (since mages cannot move and cast at the same time other than one spell that has a cooldown) so that when do have to move they can use that proc they had been saving.

 

 

For example. I play Hunters a lot since I loathe the you-can't-move-and-shoot system and Hunters can avoid it with the right spec. Combat for me would be. Start by casting a DoT. This DoT stacks three times, and we have three charges, but it expires faster than the DoT skill recharges. But we get a free charge with a proc when we autoattack. So the way to play is to cast the DoT, immediately use another skill that makes the pet dash to the enemy and do damage. Start using other skills. Keep an eye on the DoT. It expires in 10 seconds, so at around 9 seconds use the second charge.

 

Now the DoT skill does a lot of damage when it's at three stacks since it increases the attack speed of the pet, so you really want it at three stacks, and super important, you don't want to be caught with your pants down and let the three stacks drop off. This means being very accurate at firing the skill at 9 seconds. Not sooner, because you might get a draught of procs and the stacks will drop, but not after 9 seconds since it expires at 10 seconds.

 

Another skill recharges in 15 seconds. It's important to fire it the second it goes off recharge. Any seconds elapsing while not using it means less uses of the skill. BUT! Don't use it if the GCD will prevent you from using the DoT at 9 seconds!

 

The big damage attack recharges in 6 seconds. Again, religiously hit as soon as recharged, but, again, juggle not losing three DoT stacks. Wasting one second here, one second there, means at the end of the fight we fired the big skill as much as 5 or 10 less than the person who used it the moment it went off cooldown. To make things more interesting yet another skill will also have a chance to instantly recharge, and each time used will shave 1 second off the big attack skill, so in order to use -more- of the big attack you want to use the instant recharge procs of the other attack to shave 1 second off, which means not letting the procs accumulate. If we did not use the proc and we get another proc they do not stack, it's wasted, so it needs to be fired off immediately! BUT DON'T LET THE THREE STACKS DROP!

 

😄

 

AoE adds another layer. The basic AoE skill of the Beastmaster is almost useless. It does about auto-shot damage. BUT. At level 50 it gets an upgrade where when used the pet will start doing cleave damage and that is where the AoE comes from. The cleaving lasts four seconds. So we don't want to spam the Hunter's AoE skill (since it does crap damage and it's a waste to even press the button on less than 7 targets) but we don't want the pet to stop AoEing. So every four seconds the Hunter uses it -once- to activate the pet's cleaving. While, of course, keeping all the above happening in terms of DoT stacks, using procs to not let them go to waste, etc.

 

 

 

It sounds super confusing and complicated but we can configure addons to put all the information on the screen. A reason I disliked trying to use Psi Melee mechanic of Insight is the lack of this. There is a tiny icon ticking, no numbers, we need to memorize when it started, how many seconds passed. And for very little reward (ignoring the Insight mechanic turns out to be the same damage as using it).

 

I rather like WoW combat. No 20 buttons to keep track of and being 'good' is being capable of moving out of telegraphed attacks, but still able to keep track of things like different procs, use them, don't waste them, keep track of DoTs, don't let them drop, use personal defenses and self heals to survive, etc.

 

In a raid the normal way of it going is people starting to die. They messed up, they were looking at their cooldowns (or at the chat, or at Nerflix) and did not see the boss mechanic spawn under them. So to me it was a point of pride to survive until the end at the point where the raid leader goes 'okay, too many people died, we won't be able to clear. Throw yourself at the boss and die so we can start over' and I'm still up and alive, and most likely in the top three in the damage out of 20 persons (around 12-13 being damage dealers).

 

This is, of course, all min maxed raid stuff. Normal play needs nearly nothing of this as it happens so fast there is no need to worry about stacks and keeping them up.

I think what's really key here is that in exchange for all that "work" there's a real, measurable, benefit.  You're rewarded for having player skill (or in some games, macro building abilities).  A lot of games fail at this.  In fact a lot of CoH powersets are examples of failures to reward the player for extra work.  Sets with combos, or short buffs/debuffs have a "best method" of play that can take some practice to master.  But rarely is there a big bonus for developing that skill.  Sure, you can coax more damage from the powerset then not mastering the technique, but other powersets just out damage you and are easy button mashers so why bother?  (i.e. why play water, savage, staff, kinetic melee?).   

 

Since we're talking about CO, ... the power armor set had some tricks to greatly boosting the damage output with very precise timing.  It's one of the reasons I was drawn to the set myself.