Make alternative IO sets to Luck of the Gambler

[nyttyn]

Problem: Luck of the Gambler (LotG)'s Global Recharge Bonus constrains build slots because every competitively built set needs five mule slots for them, which constrains power pool picks. Already a big problem in that fighting, leaping/flying and super speed are core on most builds, LotG makes Leadership or Concealment core on most too. 

 

Solution: Make sets in other categories which have generic IO bonuses (damage, recharge, whatever) and set bonuses equal to LotG, with one of the six enhancements being the same as LotG's global recharge, up to and including the name of the bonus (so they play by the same law of fives).

Benefits: All characters get a bit more breathing room with muling LotG, and many competitive builds get one of the Big Four power pools freed up. 

 

Downsides: Slight power creep in that people have one more IO slot for lotg mules (combat jumping, weave, maneuvers etc) but most builds don't have the room to heavily slot these powers in the first place so it should be minimal.

[Troo]

We don't have to use them.

 

Perma _____ is not a requirement anywhere in the game. High recharge is nice, but it is also a choice and should have consequences. Really, that is what it comes down to: Choice

[Rathulfr]

/em cues up his usual screed railing against Hasten and the +recharge metagame...

/em pauses, reconsiders, and exits quietly.  "Let them descend into madness without me," he mutters as he goes.

 

Edited April 7, 2020 by Rathulfr

[nyttyn]

  

9 minutes ago, Troo said:

We don't have to use them.

 

Perma _____ is not a requirement anywhere in the game. High recharge is nice, but it is also a choice and should have consequences. Really, that is what it comes down to: Choice

But that's exactly the problem. You don't really have a choice - pool powers are, generally speaking, absolutely terrible (by design) and only taken for flavor. You'd be able to at least choose a few more if what is otherwise a build tax was loosened up and you had more of a choice as to where to put your LotGs. And very few builds have to actually sacrifice any power slots to make room for the current LotG mule selection, as very few combos don't have enough skippable powers to make room easily.

 

The current consequence of "you don't get to pick a fun power pool" kinda blows, since it's not really even a choice of "something fun you'll use maybe a few times a session vs 10% more global recharge" if you even somewhat care about a build. 

[justicebeliever]

10 minutes ago, Rathulfr said:

/em cues up his usual screed railing against Hasten and the +recharge metagame...

/em pauses, reconsiders, and exits quietly.  "Let them descend into madness without me," he mutters as he goes.

 

I'm already Perma-haten where this is going...

[Lines]

I've started taking hasten out of many of my characters or their potential builds, especially when trying to get it perma is a bit of a drag. It's usually absolutely fine, I only have a few characters who'd really feel it. But I've found now and then that I'm not sure what to replace it with. Either nothing else really did it for me or desirable power pools required more slotting, and slots are scarce. Once the last two Origin Power Pools come around, then I might have more to scratch my head over.

 

I'm down for another global recharge in another set type. Because why not? Though if it belongs to the same rule of 5 as LOTG, it's not going to change the desire for hasten.

 

 

[EyeLuvBooks]

12 minutes ago, nyttyn said:

  

But that's exactly the problem. You don't really have a choice - pool powers are, generally speaking, absolutely terrible (by design) and only taken for flavor. You'd be able to at least choose a few more if what is otherwise a build tax was loosened up and you had more of a choice as to where to put your LotGs. And very few builds have to actually sacrifice any power slots to make room for the current LotG mule selection, as very few combos don't have enough skippable powers to make room easily.

 

The current consequence of "you don't get to pick a fun power pool" kinda blows, since it's not really even a choice of "something fun you'll use maybe a few times a session vs 10% more global recharge" if you even somewhat care about a build. 

Yes, you do: Turn down your Diff. If you have a power that is deemed useless because it recharges too slow then that's a problem with the power and it should be looked at. However, the core game was designed WITHOUT IOs at all. The whole Invention system came in years after the game was launched, so it's optional. Many players don't like crafting or the Market so they just use common SOs. They seem to get by just fine without having 25 million inf-worth of IOs just for the Rech boost.

 

[EyeLuvBooks]

What I would like to see is all of the 'junk sets removed from the game entirely or have them upgraded so they're actually worth having.

 

How about an alternate to LotG with +Rech for Resistance sets?

 

How about a couple of sets that are 7% or 6.5% instead of 7.5%? That way the players who don't want to farm for Inf don't have to drop 5-7 million on the LotG?

 

We have -KB on Defense AND Resist sets so we have lots of alternatives there, why not have alternatives for the others?

 

I'd settle for a Healing buff smaller than Numina's or Miracles because I'm an altaholic. If I can outfit ALL my characters with less expensive IOs then I'm good with that. As it is now, you're looking at hundreds of millions for ONE character.

 

Why are there so many junk sets? I understand that some rarer sets are better and that's how it SHOULD be but why not have an alternative to Crushing Impact that gives a 4% +Recharge for s 5-piece set?

 

I dislike the idea that there are a dozen or so pieces that everyone wants and the rest are vendor trash. I think that the game would run better and the players would be better off with less junk.

[Haijinx]

55 minutes ago, nyttyn said:

  

But that's exactly the problem. You don't really have a choice - pool powers are, generally speaking, absolutely terrible (by design) and only taken for flavor.

I find the disconnect between this and the weekly request for access to 5 power pools interesting

[MTeague]

1 hour ago, nyttyn said:

 But that's exactly the problem. You don't really have a choice

Londo:  "I have no choice!"

Lady Morella:  "There is always choice. We say that there is no choice only to comfort ourselves with a decision we have already made."

[justicebeliever]

3 minutes ago, MTeague said:

Londo:  "I have no choice!"

Lady Morella:  "There is always choice. We say that there is no choice only to comfort ourselves with a decision we have already made."

Automatic like for including Babylon 5.

[Indystruck]

2 hours ago, EyeLuvBooks said:

How about a couple of sets that are 7% or 6.5% instead of 7.5%? That way the players who don't want to farm for Inf don't have to drop 5-7 million on the LotG?

 

Well, what would happen is that people would just end up using the 7% and 7.5% simultaneously. Also if a +recharge IO gets added that works essentially like the LotG, it is going to end up being similarly priced.

[ArchVileTerror]

I think for this to work, the Bonus needs to sourced the same, so the two can't stack.  Otherwise you'd just end up with people Slotting five Gamblers, AND five of whatever else we make.

 

I think this is a good idea, with that limitation in mind.  I believe it would encourage more diverse Builds, allowing players to source the Bonuses from more Powers, and explore different options in the Powers they would have otherwise been using as mere "mules."

[Galaxy Brain]

Hasten is so powerful that it invalidates other build choices even on a casual level, and often if you are looking for powers to pick it is a toss up between.... well you name it, and the best power in the game.

 

I cant tell you how often I sit on a character looking at pool powers and just not knowing wtf to take over it.

 

Hasten aside, an alternative to LotG would be nice if it were made exclusive to it as well somehow as @ArchVileTerrormentioned.

Edited April 7, 2020 by Galaxy Brain

[Major_Decoy]

Make a resistance set named Luck of the Rambler with a Resistance/ Luck of the Gambler +7.5% recharge?

[ArchVileTerror]

No, Decoy . . . I don't think that's right to use "Luck" again.

Duck of the Rambler?  Buck of the Rambler?  Su- . . . *coughs, staring off in to the middle distance for a moment, then leaves*

[nyttyn]

35 minutes ago, ArchVileTerror said:

I think for this to work, the Bonus needs to sourced the same, so the two can't stack.  Otherwise you'd just end up with people Slotting five Gamblers, AND five of whatever else we make.

 

I think this is a good idea, with that limitation in mind.  I believe it would encourage more diverse Builds, allowing players to source the Bonuses from more Powers, and explore different options in the Powers they would have otherwise been using as mere "mules."

To be clear, that's why I said the same bonus name. It'd be silly to just introduce *another* global recharge set at this point, so they'd have to use the same "Luck of the Gambler: Recharge Boost" (or whatever it's called), so between the lot you'd still only be able to have five total.

 

and yeah obviously Recharge dominates everything else but discussing the...extremely wide-reaching ramifications of that is well outside of the scope of this suggestion or any one individual suggestion, really. It'd also be a laborious effort to even attempt, so that's why I'm putting forth something much more small scale here, suggestion wise. 

 

As such, it's not - really a real choice between, say, "toxic dart and corrosive vial because they're cool" and "10% global recharge." You might as well say "you have a choice to use your tier 1 attack (for most sets) in a chain instead of optimal powers" - technically true, but that's not really a choice at all. You either don't care at all and just pick whatever looks cool, or you're forced into a decision that's incredibly lopsided.

 

All I'd like is to be able to realistically pick up one or two cool flavor powers I might use a few times a play session at most without having to sacrifice a large level of character power to do so. More ideally i'd personally prefer a world where luck of the gambler didn't even exist, but the ship sailed a long time ago for that.

[Naraka]

22 minutes ago, nyttyn said:

All I'd like is to be able to realistically pick up one or two cool flavor powers I might use a few times a play session at most without having to sacrifice a large level of character power to do so. More ideally i'd personally prefer a world where luck of the gambler didn't even exist, but the ship sailed a long time ago for that.

I think what you're running into is the overall dilemma of min/maxed builds.  No matter what kind of corners you file down to make your choices less sharp, a new meta will then dictate what your new choices will be that will then make a sharp choice that you'd want to get filed down too.

 

On the flipside, those not constrained by specific build ingredients to bake the same cookie cutter build, get the chance to pick those cool flavor powers to their content because they also suffer the limitations of their builds.

 

What it sounds like to me is you want your cake and someone else's cookies.

 

As for the suggestion itself, I don't really see it as a problem.  If you want to sacrifice build choices for bonus stats, that is a viable choice.  If you don't want to sacrifice the power for the stats, that's fine too.  If you can only fit 3-4 LotG rech IOs in your build, it's not going to break a build, especially considering the level of content available.

[Major_Decoy]

2 hours ago, ArchVileTerror said:

No, Decoy . . . I don't think that's right to use "Luck" again.

Duck of the Rambler?  Buck of the Rambler?  Su- . . . *coughs, staring off in to the middle distance for a moment, then leaves*

Oh, fine.

 

Ruck of the Rambler.

[TraumaTrain]

3 hours ago, ArchVileTerror said:

I think for this to work, the Bonus needs to sourced the same, so the two can't stack.  Otherwise you'd just end up with people Slotting five Gamblers, AND five of whatever else we make.

 

I think this is a good idea, with that limitation in mind.  I believe it would encourage more diverse Builds, allowing players to source the Bonuses from more Powers, and explore different options in the Powers they would have otherwise been using as mere "mules."

Wait... the LotG +recharge is not unique?

[ArchVileTerror]

You can have 5 of it, yup.  Hell, you could slot MORE, but you won't get more than the 5 bonuses.

[Llewellyn Blackwell]

I keep trying to explain this and will do so again. Plenty of builds simply do not benefit in a meaningful enough way to warrant a focus on global recharge, or need hasten.

 

For example A scrapper that takes most of his attack powers is going to have a full attack chain, and frankly I loathe spamming just the last couple attacks over and over as it makes for a very dull thing to watch. Take my STJ Stalker as an example he doesnt have hasten, he doesnt have an especially heavy set focus, I did fit in a few LOTG because he is ninjitsu, and he also for thematic reasons has the leadership pool and vengeance so fitting 5 lotg in was easy, but def not needed.

 

My Claw/WP scrapper, same thing dont bother with hasten he is toggle heavy and has a full attack chain without any extra recharge. It would benefit only a couple powers at most, so why bother with a huge investment for little return.

 

Now click heavy sets like Regen or sets with unique aspects taht really should be perma like Drain Psyche or Soul Drain do make perma hasten and all that extra recahrge very much a real want and maybe evena  need for high end play.

 

My point is, Hasten and a global recharge set focus is far from a must or even a want on a great many possible power build combos. And knowing how to optimize builds is part of being good at the game. Making it easier to do so doesnt really do other then make the game easier in general, and we all agree the game can be pretty easy if we want it to be by fine tuning builds to the Nth degree.

[ArchVileTerror]

I'm no expert, Bent, but I'm pretty sure the point of focusing on Global Recharge is to make "Proc Monsters."

[Greycat]

7 hours ago, EyeLuvBooks said:

What I would like to see is all of the 'junk sets removed from the game entirely or have them upgraded so they're actually worth having.

 

Know what's nice about "junk sets?"

- Cheap frankenslotting. If you don't really care overmuch about set bonuses, you can squeeze a bit more acc/dmg (for instance) in fewer slots by using those from multiple sets.

- Converting. Build cheap, convert.

- And yeah, sometimes you find something unexpected that "just works" and is fun for you.

 

Yeah, some sets can take some looking at, but nothing needs to be removed.

 

Side note - I have hasten on few if no characters, and don't see it or LOTG as all that vital. *shrug*

Edited April 8, 2020 by Greycat

[Haijinx]

1 hour ago, Bentley Berkeley said:

My point is, Hasten and a global recharge set focus is far from a must or even a want on a great many possible power build combos. And knowing how to optimize builds is part of being good at the game. Making it easier to do so doesnt really do other then make the game easier in general, and we all agree the game can be pretty easy if we want it to be by fine tuning builds to the Nth degree.

If I have hasten, I want it to be perma.  Cause otherwise its annoying.