Copyrighted Generics Issues

[Golden Azrael]

23 hours ago, MunkiLord said:

People wanting clearly defined rules are not going to get what they want, it is literally impossible for this topic. Copyright and trademark infringement cases are decided by the courts or other legal body set up specifically for that. Everybody else, rights holders, lawyers, me, you, HC, are just making judgment calls. 

 

People telling others to simply be more creative are being extremely ridiculous. If it were that easy we wouldn't have a use for IP laws in the first place. It's much easier said than done.

 

The HC team is not the problem here, the problem is organizations like Disney, the RIAA, MPAA, Writer's Guild, John Deere, Oracle, Mosanto(though that's patents), etc perverting the intent of IP laws for pure profit and greed. It is absolutely in the HC team's best interest to err on the side of caution. Deciding this stuff in the courts and with lawyers is prohibitively expensive for the vast majority of people and organizations. 

 

If you don't want these type of issues to become worse, pay attention when companies and politicians go after Section 230 of the CDA. If that goes away we'll all be in a much more restrictive environment as it will be significantly easier to sue platforms and games that host user created content.

You're spot on re: the organisations listed.

 

Why does Microsoft's 'Windows' get to camp on a generic term?

 

There will be IP infringement by the way you think, references, links and behave if those corporations have their way.

 

Azrael.

[Golden Azrael]

22 hours ago, MunkiLord said:

Yes, thank you for the obvious answer, it's also irrelevant to my point. There are ways to not recreate other characters, again obvious and irrelevant to my statement. My point is telling people to be more creative is an extremely ridiculous response. It's also very dismissive of others. I'm not really sure what you're arguing here or what your point is.

People can tell other people to be more creative.  But some may simply not want to.  It's easier to copy 'their' favourite hero.  Each person is unique.  Has a unique imagination.  But whether they wish to use it?  Another thing.  I'd say most of the CoH community harnessed their personality very well.  So much so, the 'copys 1:1' stand out like a red thumb.  We have a very creative community.

 

I see the Hulks wandering around Paragon, but I think it was very precious of Marvel to knock on NC's door all those years ago.  Even a watered down duplicate is hard to mistake for the 'real thing' but some people like the homage and get real close to the 'real' thing.  But then, I'm not Marvel.  They have some cheek to sue anyone after the way they treated Kirby and Ditko.  Marvel and DC having been 'copying' one another's fads and IP with thinly veiled copies for years. 

 

At the least, being original means you can hit the 'pizza hero' random button and be completely original in CoH terms.  Minimum of effort.  But still some may want to play 'their' hero.  eg.  Hulk, Spider Man, Superman or recreate all the Marvel or DC heroes as homage alts.  I don't see the harm in such an old, not for profit game.

 

It's like fan art.  It's not like this community of 'heroes' is ripping Marvel or DC off financially.

 

You can't force anyone to do anything.  Short of a gun and a C&Desist letter from Disney.  Or just giving them a warning not to post straight copies for fear of it taking down the servers...

 

Copyright and Trademark and IP discussions are complex.  No doubt. 

 

Captain Marvel was nothing like Superman in appearance or concept.  But it didn't stop DC Comics from forcing Fawcett out of business eventually.  I preferred the big red cheese, myself...

 

Azrael.

Edited April 23, 2020 by Golden Azrael

[Haijinx]

This topic is a bit weird tbh.

 

You can't even play Batman and Superman in DCs Superhero MMO.  

[Golden Azrael]

23 minutes ago, Haijinx said:

This topic is a bit weird tbh.

 

You can't even play Batman and Superman in DCs Superhero MMO.  

Good catch.

 

HC will be sensitive to unwarranted attention if they are still negotiating an official server with NC.  That's my guess.

 

Azrael.

[siolfir]

There's been a lot of bickering back and forth when I don't think anyone is defending outright copying but instead wants an opportunity to respond to claims before being genericed. Now the email to the account has been shot down as being too time consuming and I can understand that - this isn't the GMs full-time jobs, they do it because they love the game and want to help out.

 

But I would suggest an alternative: no offline generics (ie, it would require GM interaction) unless the character receives multiple reports in a 24 hour span. How many reports is "multiple" comes under scrutiny, but personally I'd go with reports from 3 different globals; this does a few things: it prevents one person from easily trolling borderline cases, since they'd have to swap and report on multiple accounts; otherwise it would mean that to get multiple people reporting it, then it is either blatant and easily-recognized or offensive enough that it disturbs more than one person's sensibilities (because one person can just /ignore them). 

 

Note that this would also still allow the GM to intervene themselves on a single report to verify the claim and preferably, interact with the player to explain why they can't make "Fe Male" (because it's Iron Man, har har), "Ruffalo Ragemonster" (which I've actually seen in Atlas Park, btw), any of these characters (most of which are already parodies), or the various innuendos and scatological references that I've seen in game. In the end, it's still a single person's call - the GM's - but if they're online then the person can get an explanation without the email, even if it's "Really? You really thought Clawverine was acceptable?"

 

 

 

 

[Bossk_Hogg]

8 hours ago, ZacKing said:

There is risk in everything you do.  some are more likely than others. what's more likely here?  the owner of the IP pulling the plug on a pirate server running property stolen from them?  or Disney sending a C&D?   again, I completely accept the rules here and have no problem with following them.  of course people who want to make direct copies shouldn't do it.  I'm just questioning the thinking that Disney shutting the game down is a risk to be concerned about.  They haven't done it for decades for games way more popular than this one. 

Exactly. They don't give a fuck about others using their IP Minecraft or other games that actually make money.  The "concerns" about this being what gets a pirate server shut down is ludicrous. It's just an excuse to force their tastes on others and be petty jerks.  

[MTeague]

13 minutes ago, siolfir said:

There's been a lot of bickering back and forth when I don't think anyone is defending outright copying but instead wants an opportunity to respond to claims before being genericed.

a) I am not the devs

b) It has been well over 20 years since I worked in customer service, so yes, I'm unplugged from some of it.

 

But if I had gone through the trouble of setting up a server, making it available, working on code enhancements, taking on the risks of legal action by an angry corporation, etc, and then someone wanted to argue it back and forth with me over whether or not a name should be genericized?  I would get angry and be "look my home, my rules, deal with it", and if they kept trying to argue against it, I'd probably simply BAN them.

 

This is, perhaps, among the many reasons why I have never personally run my own business and tend to focus more on the technical aspects of things.

But if I was the GM's, arguing it back and forth with people who want to know the fine line of what is or isnt' acceptable and what they could or couldn't do, and why I let so-and-so stay when I generic'd them, would frankly cause me to take more drastic action than quietly genericing someone in the first place. 

 

Perhaps this would not be true of those who are actually GM's. 

But be careful what you wish for.

[Jimmy]

22 minutes ago, siolfir said:

There's been a lot of bickering back and forth when I don't think anyone is defending outright copying but instead wants an opportunity to respond to claims before being genericed. Now the email to the account has been shot down as being too time consuming and I can understand that - this isn't the GMs full-time jobs, they do it because they love the game and want to help out.

 

But I would suggest an alternative: no offline generics (ie, it would require GM interaction) unless the character receives multiple reports in a 24 hour span. How many reports is "multiple" comes under scrutiny, but personally I'd go with reports from 3 different globals; this does a few things: it prevents one person from easily trolling borderline cases, since they'd have to swap and report on multiple accounts; otherwise it would mean that to get multiple people reporting it, then it is either blatant and easily-recognized or offensive enough that it disturbs more than one person's sensibilities (because one person can just /ignore them). 

 

Note that this would also still allow the GM to intervene themselves on a single report to verify the claim and preferably, interact with the player to explain why they can't make "Fe Male" (because it's Iron Man, har har), "Ruffalo Ragemonster" (which I've actually seen in Atlas Park, btw), any of these characters (most of which are already parodies), or the various innuendos and scatological references that I've seen in game. In the end, it's still a single person's call - the GM's - but if they're online then the person can get an explanation without the email, even if it's "Really? You really thought Clawverine was acceptable?"

We never generic solely based on reports. We always verify by checking the actual character before taking any action (and we have tools to easily do this without needing to be in-game).

[siolfir]

2 minutes ago, Jimmy said:

We never generic solely based on reports. We always verify by checking the actual character before taking any action (and we have tools to easily do this without needing to be in-game).

I thought I remembered an automated system, but that might have been just part of the report spammer system that I don't think is active on HC. The real point of the suggestion was that an offline generic doesn't really explain anything to the person (if it was "innocent"), while having a GM log on and say "that [name/costume/bio/combination] is a violation, check the code of conduct" could theoretically prevent future issues, or as mentioned, give you the chance to find the problem children if they get argumentative.

 

Don't you love how "argue with someone until they end up with a ban" comes across much nicer as "a chance to find problem children?"

[Jimmy]

10 minutes ago, siolfir said:

I thought I remembered an automated system, but that might have been just part of the report spammer system that I don't think is active on HC. The real point of the suggestion was that an offline generic doesn't really explain anything to the person (if it was "innocent"), while having a GM log on and say "that [name/costume/bio/combination] is a violation, check the code of conduct" could theoretically prevent future issues, or as mentioned, give you the chance to find the problem children if they get argumentative.

 

Don't you love how "argue with someone until they end up with a ban" comes across much nicer as "a chance to find problem children?"

We do have a somewhat automated system, but it just executes various actions for automatically for GMs so they doesn't need to be completed manually. No action is ever taken without a human* GM instigating it.

 

If any action is taken on your account the automated system will send you a global tell informing you of what's happened. It will also automatically open a support ticket with the full details - you can then respond to the ticket if you want, and it'll then be added into the support queue for us to review and respond to.

*we cannot guarantee that all GMs are completely human

[MunkiLord]

40 minutes ago, MTeague said:

a) I am not the devs

b) It has been well over 20 years since I worked in customer service, so yes, I'm unplugged from some of it.

 

But if I had gone through the trouble of setting up a server, making it available, working on code enhancements, taking on the risks of legal action by an angry corporation, etc, and then someone wanted to argue it back and forth with me over whether or not a name should be genericized?  I would get angry and be "look my home, my rules, deal with it", and if they kept trying to argue against it, I'd probably simply BAN them.

 

This is, perhaps, among the many reasons why I have never personally run my own business and tend to focus more on the technical aspects of things.

But if I was the GM's, arguing it back and forth with people who want to know the fine line of what is or isnt' acceptable and what they could or couldn't do, and why I let so-and-so stay when I generic'd them, would frankly cause me to take more drastic action than quietly genericing someone in the first place. 

 

Perhaps this would not be true of those who are actually GM's. 

But be careful what you wish for.

While not the same thing, as a former long time server and bartender I could be held liable if I let someone get drunk and they hurt someone else or themselves. So despite relying on tips and being in a customer service focused industry, if I said someone had enough to drink, there was no arguing about it. That's the way it was. And if they didn't accept it, I was happy for them to take their money elsewhere.

[Oubliette_Red]

If I were, say a writer or artist then I would certainly be thankful of the HC dev team for doing their part to protect my IP if some player were using it in-game without my express authorization. Same goes for the players that take the time to report said offenders.

 

Back on Legacy Jim Butcher used to play his own character Harry Dresden and got reported and gen'd on several occasions. I'm sure he found it slightly annoying to have to get the issue cleared up with the GMs at the time, but I bet he was also glad that other players cared enough to report the usage as well.

 

Regarding gen'd characters that were in violation of the stated rules...

 

[Bionic_Flea]

2 hours ago, Jimmy said:

*we cannot guarantee that all GMs are completely human

I KNEW it!

[Hyperstrike]

On 4/22/2020 at 8:42 AM, ZacKing said:

I don't buy this. 

Fine.  Don't buy it.
 

On 4/22/2020 at 8:42 AM, ZacKing said:

Google any popular game out there and you'll find a literal shit ton of "copyrighted/trademarked" skins out there freely available.  some of them have been around for decades.  YouTube is polluted with videos of people playing games using custom skins.  Where's the cease and desists from Disney?  Nowhere.  They go after people trying to profit off selling stuff. 

Skins are CLIENT SIDE MODS for most of the games you're talking about.

Not so for CoH.  Therein lies the problem.  INCLUDING CHARACTER NAMES.

 

On 4/22/2020 at 8:42 AM, ZacKing said:

This rule was put in place here to appease the few who lost their shit over other people making homages for "not being creative enough".  however, it's their servers so it's up to them what to do, so we have to live with their decision since we don't have the skin in the game they do.  chances are greater they do something to piss off NCSoft and that gets the game shut down than someone making a Superman homage.

No. The rule existed on live.  As NCSoft/Cryptic had already fought off one lawsuit.

While we aren't really costing them money right now, getting them sued by Mouse House or DC/WB would probably cost them hideous amounts of money.
And they'd come down on us like a bag of hammers dropped from orbit.

[ABlueThingy]

2 hours ago, Bossk_Hogg said:

Exactly. They don't give a fuck about others using their IP Minecraft or other games that actually make money.  The "concerns" about this being what gets a pirate server shut down is ludicrous. It's just an excuse to force their tastes on others and be petty jerks.  

 

The fact that they don't police every single instance at all times is irrelevant. Giant corporations like the rules to be huge and sweeping so they can enforce them or not as a threat.  It is absolutely the metaphorical sword of Damocles hanging over the server.   Just because you are unaware of the threat doesn't mean other people are blind to it.

 

NC Soft has shut down dozens of private severs, something has stopped them so far from shutting this one down.  Disney shuts down online storefronts, harasses fan artists, has shut down cons, they've sued everyone from their own artists to actual children.  I mean, shit, go look up Kimba The White Lion's history.  Disney is audacious as F about this.

 

It's not even so much that Disney will come after HC directly.  NC Soft just has to get worried that HC is a liability.  That Disney MIGHT come after them for tacitly endorsing this private server(Which is what they have done by letting us continue to exist with their knowledge).  If it looks to NCsoft that the people running this server are letting people run wild and doing any "unseemly" things.  Porn mods, open racism/sexism, vulgarity and yes playing loosely with other people's IPs.  They are not going to let it continue.

 

And if y'all actually push NCsoft hard enough?  They might keep going to try and shut down as many private servers as they can.  All they have to do is send a polite letter to Reddit and Discord and most of our community vanishes in an instant.

 

Maybe that won't happen.  Maybe. 

 

I'm basically saying that NCsoft is Praetorian Hamidon and HC is Tyrant.  HC has managed an uneasy truce for the moment, with terms negotiated on our behalf.  This has kept the Hamidon from wiping our entire community out so far.  But instead of putting brain washing juice in the water and kidnapping and mutilating children... they are asking you to make your costume less derivative, make your names less obvious a ripoff. 

 

If "Bulk-Mad" the turquoise SS/Inv Brute was your Aurora Borealis and you wanna Calvin Scott us all for this grave injustice well.  I don't know what to tell you.  The forums are not going to be very receptive to this.

 

[Llewellyn Blackwell]

This is an issue with all sorts of shades of grey folks, but I think in general we know well enough when it comes to homage/parody/outright copy what the line is for the most part. My homage to Bat Man, The Black Flying Fox is very batman esque in appearance and with the vast variations in outfits done in the comics my look more then likely hits close to a few. We know the intent is obvious on sight alone, but the name and look are also just off brand enough we can say yeah cool parody or homage etc and move on.

 

As far as I know its usually a name+ costume that will bring down the generic., So if you really want to be Cobalt Champion and have a blue variant of the green lantern outfit you should be ok.

[Haijinx]

4 hours ago, Jimmy said:

*we cannot guarantee that all GMs are completely human

 

Always check the fine print. 

[MTeague]

54 minutes ago, Bentley Berkeley said:

As far as I know its usually a name+ costume that will bring down the generic., So if you really want to be Cobalt Champion and have a blue variant of the green lantern outfit you should be ok.

I think it should be fine.  But I would also say, if I made any homage character like that, I would go into it eyes fully open and fully aware that i MIGHT be Generic'd and have to rename them someday. Whether or not my intent was harmless, whether or not I thought I crossed any kind of line, I'd have to accept that going into it when I rolled up a character like that. 

[Rathulfr]

5 hours ago, Jimmy said:

We never generic solely based on reports. We always verify by checking the actual character before taking any action (and we have tools to easily do this without needing to be in-game).

 

4 hours ago, Jimmy said:

If any action is taken on your account the automated system will send you a global tell informing you of what's happened. It will also automatically open a support ticket with the full details - you can then respond to the ticket if you want, and it'll then be added into the support queue for us to review and respond to.

 

As far as I can tell, these two quotes address the bulk of the OP's concerns. 

 

First, nobody is going to get generic'ed just because some other player thinks it violates copyright: the HC GMs (human or otherwise) actually make an informed decision based on available evidence, not just some drive-by complaint.

 

Second, anybody who does get generic'ed gets notified in game, and a support ticket is opened, so that the player can seek more information or appeal the decision.

 

That's it: seems fair enough, to me.  We don't need any more gyrations on this, we don't need miles of arcane legalese, and we don't need to spiral out of control on tangents.  If you're concerned your character is going to be generic'ed, don't sweat it unless/until it actually happens -- if at all.   And be responsible enough for your own creations to make sure they're not in jeopardy by avoiding to make copyright clones in the first place.  It's not rocket surgery.

 

Just use common sense, remember that you're playing for free on someone else's dime and sweat, so follow their rules.  If you don't like it, go somewhere else with different rules, or spin up your own server.  Homecoming is just one of several groups hosting CoH now: you're not "stuck" with them, as we used to be when there was only one game in town.  We're free to make different choices now.

 

Edited April 24, 2020 by Rathulfr

[tidge]

I freely admit to wanting to know the names of characters which were made generic. In my experience, it is very rare that a player complaining (in game in a public channel) about having been genericized shares the name. In the most recent case I recall, the name wasn't close to being  trademarked, but was in extremely bad taste.

[ShardWarrior]

12 hours ago, Oubliette_Red said:

If I were, say a writer or artist then I would certainly be thankful of the HC dev team for doing their part to protect my IP if some player were using it in-game without my express authorization.

I agree however I think this is a bit of a slippery slope as well.

[ShardWarrior]

12 hours ago, Hyperstrike said:

Skins are CLIENT SIDE MODS for most of the games you're talking about.

So?  Are they being created and distributed with the express permission of the IP owner? 

 

12 hours ago, Hyperstrike said:

Not so for CoH.  Therein lies the problem.  INCLUDING CHARACTER NAMES.

I do not think anyone is suggesting character names should be allowed.

[ZacKing]

12 hours ago, Hyperstrike said:

Skins are CLIENT SIDE MODS for most of the games you're talking about.

Want to put money on if Disney or Marvel gave them legal permission to do it?

[ZacKing]

12 hours ago, Hyperstrike said:

No. The rule existed on live.  As NCSoft/Cryptic had already fought off one lawsuit.

Game isn't live anymore and isn't being run by a for profit company.

[ShardWarrior]

12 hours ago, ABlueThingy said:

Disney shuts down online storefronts, harasses fan artists, has shut down cons, they've sued everyone from their own artists to actual children.

If you are referring to the case about the parents who wanted the Mickey Mouse headstone for their dead child, Disney did not allow it because it was the express wishes of Walt Disney himself for Disney characters to not be used for anything unhappy like that.  It had nothing to do with money.