Scrapper vs Brute

[Herotu]

Brutes seem to have taken over the Scrapper's spot - the original idea with the Scrapper (before Brute was availlable to heroes) was that it was the single-target DPS counterpart to Tanker's AoE.

 

Now Brutes are available for heroes, they merge Tankers' AoE with Scrappers' DPS. It's the best of both worlds! Or is it? Does the Scrapper archtype double-damageauto make up for it's lack of AoE?

 

TL;DR Why play Scrapper now?

 

FIGHT!

[nihilii]

(IMHO) This was true on Live before ATOs but fell by the wayside by now, especially with the PPM changes and easier (Homecoming) incarnates.

 

Critical Strikes gives Scrappers excellent burst damage Brutes can only dream of, for example.

[Shred Monkey]

There's absolutely a lot of crossover in roles of all 4 melee sets.   I don't disagree with that premise at all.   

 

But I don't think Tanks were ever intended to kings of any type of damage.  And I don't agree that Brutes have supplanted Scrappers in damage of either AoE or ST.   Brutes have health and higher resist caps than scrappers so they can survive more than scrappers.  Scrappers do more damage due to crits and a higher base damage.  Since survival is a binary thing, you either live or die, and scrappers aren't dying, I would say the opposite... why play brutes now?    

 

I'd actually apply logic this further and make the argument that there's no reason to play anything but a blaster... and truth be told, I haven't found the answer to that question yet.

 

 

[Lockpick]

19 minutes ago, Shred Monkey said:

I'd actually apply logic this further and make the argument that there's no reason to play anything but a blaster... and truth be told, I haven't found the answer to that question yet.

 

I would love for you to expand on this concept and why you think that is.

 

I was mainly a scrapper player on Live, but for whatever reason I have leveled more Blasters on HC.  I have only leveled one Scrapper (Staff/WP) and have not even leveled the 2 Scrappers (MA/SD and StJ/SD) I considered my mains on Live.  I have leveled a few Stalkers, which seem as good or better than Scrappers.

[Blastit]

The idea is that, given limitless inf, you can use IOs and various pools/incarnates/whatever to softcap defences for Blasters to minimise the amount you get hit. Not getting hit in the first place is most of your survival right there, and the fact that you'll eventually get hit in an encounter is minimised by huge AoE burst damage. The shorter a fight is, the fewer attacks there are, which results in less incoming potential damage.

[Doomguide2005]

Yeah this, a level 50 endgame incarnated blaster build --> capped defenses +/- ddr, mez resistant/proof and blaster level damage particularly of the AoE variety.  Of course getting there (end game incarnate build) isn't nearly as easy as it is for the brute, scrapper, stalker or tank.  Especially from scratch, no farmer or other characters to help along the way.

 

[Galaxy Brain]

Brutes do not have an AoE boost like tankers, their sets are mostly identical to scrappers.

 

With the ATOs involved, Svrappers definitely outdamage a similarly built brute but will also be likely the same amount less durable.

Edited April 26, 2020 by Galaxy Brain

[siolfir]

With the ATOs, or with a set that has +damage, the Scrapper is likely to consistently outdamage a Brute.

 

Without the ATOs, a Brute will likely be at the same level of damage or higher from the first part of the fight through the rest of the mission. Slower Fury decay for up to 10 seconds after fighting and faster Fury gains for the slower-animating sets means that once it's built up you'll have a fairly consistent level for most of the mission.

 

Let's just take a look at some numbers, using the assumption of 100% damage slotting and we'll throw in Bio's damage boost (25/37.5%). I'm using a scale 1 attack because it eliminates an extra multiplier and the point is to show comparisons with the same attack:

Scrapper, no ATOs, 10% boss critical rate: 1.125 (AT modifier) * (1 (base damage) + 1 (slotting) + 0.375 (damage boost)) = 2.671875 * 1.1 (critical rate) = 2.9390625

Brute, 80 Fury: 0.75 (AT modifier) * (1 (base damage) + 1 (slotting) + 0.25 (damage boost) + 1.6 (Fury)) = 2.8875

 

Note that with if it was an external 25% damage buff instead of the different damage buff scales from Bio Armor, the Scrapper would be at a final value of 2.784375 (1.125 * 2.25 * 1.1) and the Brute would be doing slightly more damage. With the damage cap reduced to 700% for Brutes, though, there's no longer a point where Brutes will catch up once Scrappers pass them with +damage:

Scrapper, at damage cap (500%), even with no criticals: 1.125 * 5 = 5.625 (6.1875 at 10% critical rate)

Brute, at current damage cap (700%): 0.75 * 7 = 5.25

 

So which one does more damage is still debateable; it's likely to be the Scrapper, but if you're just soloing missions, didn't set your build up with the ATOs (the extra critical rate makes up the small difference fairly easily), and aren't running a set with sustained +damage then a Brute will probably work out better.

Edited April 26, 2020 by siolfir

[catsi563]

Scrappers are pure damage beasts. especially when it comes to focus on a single target aka scrapper lock,. a brute needs to have as much agro as possible to max out fury where they can indeed do impressive damage.  but Scrappers can with their crit hit mechanic out pace nearly any class outside of a blaster, and blasters can match that with easy aoes.

 

Brutes do however get a serious increase in resistances over scrappers so they have the ability most often to survive the initial retaliation a bit better then scrappers.

[Haijinx]

Tbh if we were redesigning COH 

 

Brutes/scrappers/stalkers would not all exist.

 

All three are Melee/Defense 

 

There only needs to be one of those.  

 

Too late for that though.  

 

Why is it Brutes supposedly do more AOE?   Most of the powersets are shared with scrappers and the AOE attacks are roughly the same. 

 

 

[Haijinx]

For many of the new sets, stalkers will also do more AOE damage than Brutes.

[SwitchFade]

Scrappers have higher sustainable DPS than brutes, as well as higher spike damage on demand.

[siolfir]

19 minutes ago, Haijinx said:

Why is it Brutes supposedly do more AOE?   Most of the powersets are shared with scrappers and the AOE attacks are roughly the same. 

Probably due to Brute Fiery Aura having a taunt effect in Blazing Aura to keep things in the Burn patches and the differences between the epic/patron pools, but for that it just comes down to Mu Mastery having 2 TAoE powers. I'm not sure I really see it either.

[Sakura Tenshi]

This is all off-the-cuff and based on 'feeling' than any sane balance, but in my head, if I were to change up brutes and scrappers a bit, I might dust off some old ideas.

 

Scrapper -

• Base crit chance on all attacks is 10%
• crit chance increases by +5% if enemy is lieutenant, boss, or elite boss
• crit chance increases by +10% if enemy is an Archvillain or Giant Monster
• crit chance increases is further boosted by +5% if target is +1 level above you.
• crit chance increase is further boosted by +5% if there are three or more enemies within a 10 ft radius around your character
• Critical hits instantly recharge the attack which proc'd the critical hit as well as refunds 100% of the power's endurance cost

So fighting against Requiem and his cronies, you'd have a 30% chance to smack him with a critical hit, and critical hits basically encourage a Scrapper to be reckless in their survival and just continually land those critical hits.

 

Brute -

• Brute fury cap returned to a maximum +200% damage
• Restore Brute ability to cap their fury on their own (Alignment power simply halts fury degeneration for 30 seconds)
• Brute damage cap restored to previous +850%
• Upon reaching 85% of their maximum fury gauge, all Brute AoEs gain an irresistable knockdown proc (affects only lieutenants or lower) while their ST attacks gain a chance to deal a portion of their damage to up to 2 additional targets

The idea driving this is to let Brutes be sort of juggernauts who, after reaching a tipping point with their attacks where they just brutalize everything around them and the sheer overwhelming force of their attacks manages to either floor everything or hurt everything. often both.

[DougGraves]

5 hours ago, Blastit said:

The idea is that, given limitless inf, you can use IOs and various pools/incarnates/whatever to softcap defences for Blasters to minimise the amount you get hit. Not getting hit in the first place is most of your survival right there, and the fact that you'll eventually get hit in an encounter is minimised by huge AoE burst damage. The shorter a fight is, the fewer attacks there are, which results in less incoming potential damage.

 

Right.  Basically everything is capped except damage.  So with IO sets letting you get any AT to the cap for everything that has a cap, an AT that does the most damage is the best. 

[Rathulfr]

7 hours ago, Shred Monkey said:

I'd actually apply logic this further and make the argument that there's no reason to play anything but a blaster... and truth be told, I haven't found the answer to that question yet.

 

7 hours ago, Lockpick said:

but for whatever reason I have leveled more Blasters on HC.

 I've always mained a Blaster, but I like creating other alts to change things up.  On retail I had an Invuln/Energy tanker that I loved, but then the changes in I4 and later completely wrecked tankers, Invuln, and Energy Melee.  I also had a Dual Blades/Regen Scrapper that was fun for the novelty of the combo system.

 

On HC, I've resurrected those and other melee characters, but I invariably get bored with them and go back to Blasters (or Sentinels, which are basically ranged Scrappers without the DPS -- but that's not relevant to this topic). 

 

I want to play melee, but there's just not much incentive to do so when Blasters seem more effective and less annoying to play (no more chasing fleeing targets).  The only melee character I play routinely is my Spines/Fire Brute, whenever I need to farm up cash to equip another Blaster/Sentinel/Corruptor.

 

In the meantime, I keep trying to find a melee alt that's as satisfying as my ranged alts.  My most recent attempt is a Katana/WP Scrapper.

 

[Blastit]

46 minutes ago, siolfir said:

Probably due to Brute Fiery Aura having a taunt effect in Blazing Aura to keep things in the Burn patches and the differences between the epic/patron pools, but for that it just comes down to Mu Mastery having 2 TAoE powers. I'm not sure I really see it either.

I hadn't thought about the taunt effect in Brute attacks, but that does make sense. I was going to suggest that people think of the Brute as an AoE specialist both due to farming being famously AoE and due to the Brute AT needing multiple enemies to operate at its peak. Scrappers of course do just fine jumping into a large pack of enemies but Brutes have an actual mechanical compulsion to do it.

 

 

20 minutes ago, Rathulfr said:

 

 In the meantime, I keep trying to find a melee alt that's as satisfying as my ranged alts.  My most recent attempt is a Katana/WP Scrapper.

 

I hear Stalkers with their ATOs are pretty cool. Major damage just like a Blaster but with cheaper defences, mez resistance and built-in stealth. The APPs and particularly the Patron pools give ranged attacks. So basically a cheaper blapper. No nuke, tho elec/shield seems close enough.

[Heraclea]

Scrappers know their role, and that role is DPS.  Brutes can be made into tanking brutes, but some brute armorsets are better at that than others.  Other brute builds are DPS oriented like the scrapper.  Which means it gets awkward when your DPS brute is the only heavy on the team. 

 

Scrappers do more damage than brutes, but their damage spikes are entirely RNG-dependent.  Brutes start from a baseline lower than tankers, but can build it up to close to scrapper levels via the Fury mechanic, which thanks to recent changes is more easily sustained. 

[Haijinx]

Even with a tough IO build a blaster is more fragile than a scrapper or stalker.

 

Especially w/o any support.

 

So there is room.

 

 

[Rathulfr]

3 hours ago, Blastit said:

I hear Stalkers with their ATOs are pretty cool. Major damage just like a Blaster but with cheaper defences, mez resistance and built-in stealth. The APPs and particularly the Patron pools give ranged attacks. So basically a cheaper blapper. No nuke, tho elec/shield seems close enough.

Thanks for the suggestion.  I've tried Stalkers, but I find them a bit too fiddly for me.  I'd rather serve RNGesus to get crits on a Scrapper, instead of hiding/placating etc.  There's nothing with wrong with Stalkers (in fact, I get the impression that they're actually better DPS than Scrappers), but they just don't work for me, personally.  I'm a simple man with simple tastes: attack, attack, attack until dead, lather, rinse, repeat.

 

[Haijinx]

5 hours ago, Blastit said:

I hear Stalkers with their ATOs are pretty cool. Major damage just like a Blaster but with cheaper defences, mez resistance and built-in stealth. The APPs and particularly the Patron pools give ranged attacks. So basically a cheaper blapper. No nuke, tho elec/shield seems close enough.

They are awesome.  And playing the Crit on Demand, AS Poof Hide, Crit and Build up build up build up game is great.  I spend most my time on Stalkers these days.  

 

Its not like a blaster though.  

 

Blasters are underrated in their no opportunity costs Real Mission damage.  

 

Also what is this blapper thing you speak of?  Those are just blasters, and then there are these weird esoteric ranged-only blasters. 

[MunkiLord]

The only reason I would every consider a Brute over a Scrapper is if I wanted to hold aggro. Other than that the Scrapper either does it generally better(DPS) or close enough(survive) to not matter in most situations.

[MTeague]

There's nothing wrong with having several AT's or Classes or whatever you want to call them that fill multiple roles. 

 

EverQuest had like 14 classes, maybe more, and while many of them overlapped on roles, each class still had it's own flavor. 

As long as Brutes FEEL like Brutes, and Scrappers FEEL like Scrappers, I don't see a problem here.

[siolfir]

2 hours ago, Rathulfr said:

I'd rather serve RNGesus to get crits on a Scrapper, instead of hiding/placating etc.

Stalkers have at worst a 10% chance to critical outside of hidden status with bonuses for nearby teammates up to 31% and placate isn't exactly useful for DPS most of the time. The Chance to Hide ATO proc, on the other hand... definitely worth it. Also, Assassin's Mark is fun when it triggers four times on 5 consecutive attacks, if you want to talk about RNGesus. Try it again and play it like a Scrapper.

 

3 minutes ago, MunkiLord said:

The only reason I would every consider a Brute over a Scrapper is if I wanted to hold aggro.

Or for certain melee powersets.

[Haijinx]

25 minutes ago, MunkiLord said:

The only reason I would every consider a Brute over a Scrapper is if I wanted to hold aggro. Other than that the Scrapper either does it generally better(DPS) or close enough(survive) to not matter in most situations.

I thought Brutes wanted to be Scrappers?