Hasten: Make it Inherent, or get rid of it?

[Nanolathe]

5 minutes ago, Galaxy Brain said:

What if all pool powers followed the Fighting and medicine styles? Aka, the more you invest in the pool the stronger each power gets.

 

Example, each power you get in stealth increases the defense each time gives or some other bonus.

 

Each power in flight improves flight speed and boosts Air Superiority damage.

 

Etc

If only fighting's "Fatigued" status was actually an effect that any PvE'er wanted 😁

 

Yea, I could see this for some pools, but for others not so much. How does Team Teleport get "better", incrementally, with each other power picked? Or Acrobatics? Unreleanting's already fairly good as is, not amazing, but useful for some ATs and concepts. Would that have to be nerfed first, and then built back up with what I'll call "Pool Power Selection Stacking"?

 

Bringing it back around - How would HASTEN be affected? 

🙃

Edited April 18, 2020 by Nanolathe

[Galaxy Brain]

Speed powers give each other a recharge and endurance discount

[Icecomet]

17 minutes ago, Nanolathe said:

If only fighting's "Fatigued" status was actually an effect that any PvE'er wanted 😁

 

Yea, I could see this for some pools, but for others not so much. How does Team Teleport get "better", incrementally, with each other power picked? Or Acrobatics? Unreleanting's already fairly good as is, not amazing, but useful for some ATs and concepts. Would that have to be nerfed first, and then built back up with what I'll call "Pool Power Selection Stacking"?

 

Bringing it back around - How would HASTEN be affected? 

🙃

 

Well, with my suggestion, it could easily be worked into ANY build that wants it without them having to lock themselves out of other pools that they have interest in.  Simple, get the powers you want a-la-carte and go have fun.  Go. Hunt. Kill Skuls.

 

Icecomet

[MunkiLord]

11 hours ago, The Godchild said:

Maybe I'm just a weirdo....but outside of extremely niche situations (ie: permadom, perma-chrono shift) there is no reason to take Hasten IMO >.> At best....you might need maybe 60% global recharge to make 99% of attack powers viable n'quick to recharge. Hasten's bonus is pretty much moot beyond that point....and honestly is pretty moot overall since the situations where you might actually need it are points where you're pushing well, WELL past what's required for normal play (that includes incarnate content).

 

This is the same argument I give to people that proclaim the Forced Feedback rech proc to be god-tier: unreliable burst rech means literally NOTHING. There come a point where you statistically get so much less from a single source when you just innately build up enough of the same source. (ie: SLOT FOR RECHARGE) Get it up to 60% and honestly you're golden unless you';re pressing hard for perma-dom or permas-shift (which will give you perma-hasten anyway amusingly).

 

...and ffs, its NOT hard to get 60% global recharge...seriously, I blind-built a grav/elec controller this week from scratch who ended up with 75% rech without even delving deep into build-crafting, it just happened because oif sets I chose as I as leveling up. Pre-50 I had at least 45%...and it was more then enough coupled with energizing circuit.

 

-- Hasten doesn't need to be nerfed, people just need to stop idolizing it as some god-tier power. End of story. --

 

Side note: the number of randos I team with using hasten is....unnerving, like seriously...Everybody seems to take it and no one can give me a legit reason why beyond "Oh hey, more recharge....awesome!" If you want reliable burst recharge....take Ageless as a destiny option, its great for that shit (speaking a someone who uses ageless on a semi-farming brute for burst recharge on savage leap n'rending fury...)

 

...maybe I play this game too damn much since I know details of this facet to such a deep degree >.<

 

Additional side note: Yeah, fuck reading 8 pages of random ranting over people freaking out over the notion. If someone touched on the same notion I did, props to'em...you get my vote for "Most kickass gamer in city of the year".

This is on the extreme end of short sighted takes on the topic because recharge doesn't happen in a vacuum. Hasten makes it easier to get the recharge one wants while also focusing on other bonuses. Of course one doesn't NEED hasten, it's just one of the best tools to help reach build and performance goals. 

[Greycat]

10 minutes ago, MunkiLord said:

This is on the extreme end of short sighted takes on the topic because recharge doesn't happen in a vacuum. Hasten makes it easier to get the recharge one wants while also focusing on other bonuses. Of course one doesn't NEED hasten, it's just one of the best tools to help reach build and performance goals. 

We have at least one map in space now, and hasten does indeed happen in a vacuum! 

 

🙂

[MunkiLord]

15 minutes ago, Greycat said:

We have at least one map in space now, and hasten does indeed happen in a vacuum! 

 

🙂

Touché!

[Broken_Prey]

I haven't read the whole thread but I always thought Hasten should be unaffected by recharge rate changes like One with the Shield or Strength of Will.  So it has a 5 min recharge and is up for 2 mins. I know most people would hate that now and it is too late to implement that with out pissing off a lot of people. 

[SwitchFade]

48 minutes ago, Broken_Prey said:

I haven't read the whole thread but I always thought Hasten should be unaffected by recharge rate changes like One with the Shield or Strength of Will.  So it has a 5 min recharge and is up for 2 mins. I know most people would hate that now and it is too late to implement that with out pissing off a lot of people. 

Hard nope vote on changing hasten to be unaffected by recharge.

[kenlon]

3 hours ago, Icecomet said:

Actually, in my opinion, there are a LOT of trap powers, like, who tf ever wants boxing?  Nobody! 

This is actually no longer true. With the rework of the Fighting pool and the stacking synergies, taking Boxing, Kick and Cross Punch is a very good deal for some builds. 

Edited April 18, 2020 by kenlon

[kenlon]

Gah, double post.

Edited April 18, 2020 by kenlon

[THEDarkTyger]

3 hours ago, Broken_Prey said:

I haven't read the whole thread but I always thought Hasten should be unaffected by recharge rate changes like One with the Shield or Strength of Will.  So it has a 5 min recharge and is up for 2 mins. I know most people would hate that now and it is too late to implement that with out pissing off a lot of people. 

I'm not against it, but I also don't think this is necessary.

[Naraka]

5 hours ago, Nanolathe said:

If only fighting's "Fatigued" status was actually an effect that any PvE'er wanted 😁

 

Yea, I could see this for some pools, but for others not so much. How does Team Teleport get "better", incrementally, with each other power picked? Or Acrobatics? Unreleanting's already fairly good as is, not amazing, but useful for some ATs and concepts. Would that have to be nerfed first, and then built back up with what I'll call "Pool Power Selection Stacking"?

 

Bringing it back around - How would HASTEN be affected? 

🙃

For teleport, I'd just give a minor global recharge and global endurance reduction for the concept that you, as a teleporter, don't have to try as hard to do what you do because you can teleport.  That all being said, you'd still want to rebalance some of the pools (teleportation being one) so that you could properly adjust individual powers.  You might even be able to throw in a global +range buff for every power you pick.

 

For Leaping and acrobatics, I'd like a slight addition to various powers to make them all kind of interchangable.  For every power pick in Leaping, Combat Jumping give resistance to immobilize and a minor amount of KB/repel protection (2 other powers = 1pt of KB protection) so if you pick all the powers, CJ would grant 2pt of KB protection. SJ would give non-slottable defense while activated for every power in leaping, Acrobatics can grant resistances to damage types and immune to fall damage while spring attack could gain longer range and debuff to defense.

 

Unrelenting I don't understand.  It says it's a self resurrect but I've never been able to get the effect.  Use it just before you die?  Die while having the effect at all?  Use it after you die (it's grayed out)?  But if taking powers in presence could drastically reduce the endurance cost and increase the accuracy of the other powers in the set (maybe some amount of global accuracy as well), would be a nice boon for this set.  As is, powers in the pool require some slotting just to be adequate.

 

Outside of suggestions to nerf Hasten, you could remove the endurance crash after it expires if you have 2 other speed powers.

[tidge]

1 hour ago, Naraka said:

Unrelenting I don't understand.  It says it's a self resurrect but I've never been able to get the effect.  Use it just before you die?  Die while having the effect at all?  Use it after you die (it's grayed out)?  But if taking powers in presence could drastically reduce the endurance cost and increase the accuracy of the other powers in the set (maybe some amount of global accuracy as well), would be a nice boon for this set.  As is, powers in the pool require some slotting just to be adequate.

Unrelenting, when used outside of a defeat, gives a massive boost to Regen, Recovery and Damage for 30 secs.

 

If you are defeated, you can use Unrelenting as a Rez (assuming it has recharged). The regular boosts kick in, so you will have lots of Health and Endurance.

[srmalloy]

On 4/9/2020 at 12:00 PM, Abysmalyxia said:

[Sets up straw man ("no reasonable person") and then attacks it viciously, 'proving' that because he doesn't like the way Hasten works in game, it has to be removed so that everyone plays the game the way he wants it to be played, using expanded text to 'shout' his argument, in the misguided belief that saying it 'louder' makes it more correct or more important]
 

[Recognizes that his One True Way^tm will be unpopular, and unsuccessfully tries to soften the backlash by proposing alternatives that do not address the issue of breaking the overwhelming majority of character builds in the game and ramming playstyle changes down a significant fraction of the playerbase]

Why didn't you make these arguments back when the game was live? Before ED, it was possible to get permaHaste and others with just SOs, and with IO set bonuses, it was possible to get permaDom and all those other 'nasty' perma powers, and the devs knew it could be done years before the game was shut down, yet they chose not to alter it, instead altering individual powers that they saw as abusive when made perma so that they couldn't be. The single-auto-power restriction was maintained, so that players had to stay alert to click powers that came off recharge, instead of letting them set up their perma ability to fire automatically alongside Hasten.

 

If you played on live and raised this issue, which the devs clearly decided wasn't worth changing, why would you believe the Homecoming staff (working as unpaid volunteers) would have a different reaction to your proposal, as well as the desire or the ability to rebalance every single power in the game around the changes you want? If you played on live and didn't raise the issue, then I think that horse has pretty definitely left the gate; Hasten is baked too deeply into the game mechanics to make such sweeping changes viable. If you didn't play on live, then I can only bow to your superior ability to swoop in and, in less than a year, identify a core problem with the game that has to be fixed which the original devs, in the seven-and-a-half-year life of the game, didn't see as a problem.

[Omega9]

No. Hasten is fine for 16 years now. It adds flavor to the game. It's balanced into the game now so removing it would require a total re-balance of recharges. Generally you hold it in reserve for a difficult battle you know is coming so it's not perma-on or anything. It uses a power slot so you sacrifice other options as well.

Edited April 19, 2020 by Omega9

[Nanolathe]

3 hours ago, Omega9 said:

No. Hasten is fine for 16 years now. It adds flavor to the game. It's balanced into the game now so removing it would require a total re-balance of recharges. Generally you hold it in reserve for a difficult battle you know is coming so it's not perma-on or anything. It uses a power slot so you sacrifice other options as well.

Except that Perma-Hasten is totally a thing you can do now. Oh, and the game hasn't been active for 16 years

And one power is rarely that much to sacrifice. In fact most characters would be fine sacrificing power selections in favour of enhancement slots late game.

And since character can choose not to take the power, removing it from the game probably would have very little effect, and certainly wouldn't require other powers to be re-balanced purely on its account.

Edited April 19, 2020 by Nanolathe

[THEDarkTyger]

35 minutes ago, Nanolathe said:

Except that Perma-Hasten is totally a thing you can do now. Oh, and the game hasn't been active for 16 years

And it was a thing you've been able to do since launch. In face, it's HARDER now than it was early in Live.

[Rathulfr]

4 minutes ago, THEDarkTyger said:

And it was a thing you've been able to do since launch. In face, it's HARDER now than it was early in Live.

QFT: I seem to recall that they actually did nerf Hasten at least once, right around the time of ED.  In fact, the implementation of ED actually did nerf Hasten, as back then, you could 6 slot it for +recharge.

[Zepp]

21 minutes ago, Rathulfr said:

QFT: I seem to recall that they actually did nerf Hasten at least once, right around the time of ED.  In fact, the implementation of ED actually did nerf Hasten, as back then, you could 6 slot it for +recharge.

That is correct, that made it impossible to get perma-hasten just by slotting for it. IO set bonuses, however, more than made up for this difference.

[Chance Jackson]

On 4/9/2020 at 3:17 PM, Yomo Kimyata said:

It is far more likely that they make Hasten inherent, just like the Live devs made Health and Stamina inherent.  

that i would welcome no to every other hasten nerf

[THEDarkTyger]

5 hours ago, Zepp said:

That is correct, that made it impossible to get perma-hasten just by slotting for it. IO set bonuses, however, more than made up for this difference.

Requires shooting specifically for max recharge, though. Which is a lot more complicated than just throwing 6 recharge reducers into Hasten. So I'd say, overall, it balanced things out well.

[Galaxy Brain]

50 minutes ago, THEDarkTyger said:

Requires shooting specifically for max recharge, though. Which is a lot more complicated than just throwing 6 recharge reducers into Hasten. So I'd say, overall, it balanced things out well.

Not quite, you need 205% global recharge to perma hasten. Technically, 275% but 70% comes from hasten.

3 Lvl 50 IO's in Hasten will give you 99.08% in hasten, further lowering the requirement to 105.92 constant global rech.

Knock out 37.5% from LotG's = 68.42
3 purple sets give you another 30% = 38.42

 

The average Rech bonus from IO's if you were to pool them at random is 5%, so you'd need around 8 of those from there.

 

The ATO sets that grant rech give another 10% when you purple them too:

• Masterminds have 1 ATO that grants recharge at 2 slots, so they can get 40% total.
• Kheldians, Corruptors and Defenders each have 1 ATO that grants Rech at 3 slots, so they can get 30% total.
• Blasters, Scrappers, and Stalkers can all get an additional 20%
• Brutes, Controllers, Dominators, SoA's, and Tankers can get an additional 10%.

 

On top of power sets that grant +Rech here and there, it's all very doable.

 

Edited April 20, 2020 by Galaxy Brain

[tidge]

17 minutes ago, Galaxy Brain said:

The ATO sets that grant rech give another 10% when you purple them too:

• Masterminds have 1 ATO that grants recharge at 2 slots, so they can get 40% total.
• Kheldians, Corruptors and Defenders each have 1 ATO that grants Rech at 3 slots, so they can get 30% total.
• Blasters, Scrappers, and Stalkers can all get an additional 20%
• Brutes, Controllers, Dominators, SoA's, and Tankers can get an additional 10%.

I believe the 10% from the Superior ATO sets is in the same pool of Recharge bonus as the 10% from the Purple sets, so if you are chasing Global recharge and already have 5x10% from Purples, you may not want to catalyze the ATOs.

[THEDarkTyger]

9 hours ago, Galaxy Brain said:

On top of power sets that grant +Rech here and there, it's all very doable.

I didn't say it wasn't doable. I said it required a lot more than just 6 recharge reductions in the one power. These IO sets are a MUCH bigger inf investment than just 6 recharge SOs. Especially when we're talking purple sets.

[MsSmart]

I will not support this

 

In principle I do not support a recommendation based on a single person's opinion that results in denying other people's choices.

 

Your first statements, come across rude, implying that anyone disagreeing with you are dumb!

 

Because of how you made your statement you leave no room for illuminated discussion, would suggest you make intelligent arguments describing what is actually wrong with Haste, and then more importantly provide a solution that makes sense with regards to your detailed arguments, throw some numbers, etc.

 

Be well