+HP/+Regen Proc Cheat Sheet

[Bopper]

Since Power Transfer was introduced with its 3 PPM chance at +5% HP, there has been discussion on which is better Panacea or PT? The answer is, it depends. They work very differently from one another, as PT's heal is 5% of your AT's base hit points (so it will benefit Tankers/Brutes more) whereas Panacea does a 6.7% heal of the general base AT hit points (1070.9 HP) using the Heal Other - Melee modifier (so it benefits Defenders the most).

 

Some things to note,

• Power Transfer is mechanized to proc only once per cast. However, this functionality appears to actually only proc once at an instance of time. So with an AoE attack, this works as intended: multiple procs from multiple hit targets get reduced to 1 proc as all those multiple procs try to resolve at the same time. However, there are consequences with this mechanic, as you could slot Power Transfer into multiple Auto powers (Stamina, Physical Perfection, Superior Conditioning, etc), but Auto powers are synchronized and a Proc from one will prevent additional procs from others. This figuratively reduces the PT proc's effectiveness by half for each additional proc slotted in an auto power (3 PPM for 1st, 1.5 PPM for 2nd, 0.75 PPM for 3rd, and so on). For chain attacks, multiple PT procs can occur from a single cast, as the jumps do not happen at the same time and/or the jumps are treated as separate casts. (This was fixed awhile ago).
• The +Regeneration procs in the chart are the Regenerative Tissue +25%, Impervious Skin + 25%, and Numina's Convalescence +20%.
• This chart will show the amount of HP received from a +HP proc, however +Regeneration works very differently (you get back 5% of your total HP faster, as opposed to getting back a fixed HP at a fixed time-interval/cast). So I scaled the +Regen procs to show the amount of additional HP received in a 20 second interval. I chose this duration because if you slot a +HP proc into an auto power, it will average 1 proc per 20 seconds (both Panacea and P.T. are 3 PPM).
• Also for +Regen procs, I show the amount of HP per 20 seconds for both the base HP and the max HP for each AT. Since regeneration works off your total hit points, whereas the +HP procs do not, I chose to show the range of values for the +Regen procs.
• I highlighted in green which proc is the most effective, and I highlighted in yellow which proc is 2nd most effective. There are edge cases where the +25% Regen proc outperforms Panacea, so I wanted to highlight it.
• Finally, all Heal Other - Melee modifiers were taken from Paragon Wiki...so things could have changed over time. If there is a difference between my chart and what shows in game, let me know and I'll update.

 

 

 

Update 27 May 2020:

On my original cheat sheet table I showed the equivalent HP per 20 seconds from adding a +Regeneration IO as a means of directly comparing it to the Power Transfer and Panacea procs (the procs fire on average once every 20 seconds in auto powers). I have updated the table to now also show the reverse of that, making the Power Transfer and Panacea procs equivalent to added regeneration. I hope this puts into context how strong these procs can be under various levels of total Hit Points. I highlighted in green whichever IO provided the best return (most HP over time). I highlighted in red the lone exceptions/scenarios where a +HP proc is not superior to a 25% regeneration IO.

 

Update 02 September 2020:

Corrected the charts to properly calculate the equivalent values for VEATS. Previous charts did not reflect their Conditioning Inherent.

 

Edited October 3, 2023 by Bopper
Corrections to Arachnos

[Snowdaze]

Nice chart, pretty much confirms things I already assumed, buy the outlier cases are actually interesting. But lets not forget even in the outlier cases Panacea has the +endurance component as well so total value, it's pretty much best in slot for health. If you had to pick just one.

[Bopper]

3 minutes ago, Snowdaze said:

Nice chart, pretty much confirms things I already assumed, buy the outlier cases are actually interesting. But lets not forget even in the outlier cases Panacea has the +endurance component as well so total value, it's pretty much best in slot for health. If you had to pick just one.

Agreed, but until recently I might have argued the "best to slot for health" claim. For 95% of the time, that is a very true statement, however slotting it in a power like Dark Regeneration or DNA Siphon was awesome. But recently (likely around the time of introducing the PT proc and tweaking how call of the sand man only proc'd once per cast), the Panacea stopped procing in those AoE powers. Very frustrating. 

 

So now that Panacea is bugged in AoEs, I have to say you are 100% right that its best in Health (well...99% perhaps, there might be other cases I'm not thinking of 😄 )

[SuperPlyx]

4 hours ago, Bopper said:

However, there are consequences with this mechanic, as you could slot Power Transfer into multiple Auto powers (Stamina, Physical Perfection, Superior Conditioning, etc), but Auto powers are synchronized and a Proc from one will prevent additional procs from others. This figuratively reduces the PT proc's effectiveness by half for each additional proc slotted in an auto power

Does this effect only procs of the same type? Or all procs put in Auto Powers?  Meaning will slotting a Power Transfer and a Performance Shifter in Stamina ,mean 1 will lose effectiveness?

 

Also nice chart,thank you.

[Bopper]

2 hours ago, SuperPlyx said:

Does this effect only procs of the same type? Or all procs put in Auto Powers?  Meaning will slotting a Power Transfer and a Performance Shifter in Stamina ,mean 1 will lose effectiveness?

 

Also nice chart,thank you.

Only Power Transfer.

 

And thank you 🙂

 

Edit: by only power transfer, I meant only power transfer has this effect and its against itself. Other procs (not called power transfer) have no effect. Sorry for my vagueness 

Edited May 12, 2020 by Bopper

[tidge]

6 hours ago, Bopper said:

Some things to note,

• Power Transfer is mechanized to proc only once per cast. However, this functionality appears to actually only proc once at an instance of time. So with an AoE attack, this works as intended: multiple procs from multiple hit targets get reduced to 1 proc as all those multiple procs try to resolve at the same time. However, there are consequences with this mechanic, as you could slot Power Transfer into multiple Auto powers (Stamina, Physical Perfection, Superior Conditioning, etc), but Auto powers are synchronized and a Proc from one will prevent additional procs from others. This figuratively reduces the PT proc's effectiveness by half for each additional proc slotted in an auto power (3 PPM for 1st, 1.5 PPM for 2nd, 0.75 PPM for 3rd, and so on). For chain attacks, multiple PT procs can occur from a single cast, as the jumps do not happen at the same time and/or the jumps are treated as separate casts.

2 hours ago, SuperPlyx said:

Does this effect only procs of the same type? Or all procs put in Auto Powers?  Meaning will slotting a Power Transfer and a Performance Shifter in Stamina ,mean 1 will lose effectiveness?

1 hour ago, Bopper said:

Only Power Transfer.

I took the first quote to say that it wasn't worth having more than one Power Transfer (Chance to Heal Self) in multiple Auto powers, as only 1 can proc. This matches what I observed with a Tanker.

 

The next two quotes imply that the Performance Shifter (Chance for +End) also prevents a Power Transfer (Chance to Heal self) (both in the same Auto power) from proccing. Is that true?

 

I may have at least one other slot to play with on one build. I have Auto Quick Recovery with 2 Performance Shifter (Proc & End) and Power Transfer, as well as Stamina with 2 Performance Shifter (Proc & End). It appears I may have invested slots unwisely.

Edited May 12, 2020 by tidge

[Bopper]

5 minutes ago, tidge said:

The next two quotes imply that the Performance Shifter (Chance for +End) also prevents a Power Transfer (Chance to Heal self) (both in the same Auto power) from proccing. Is that true?

The only proc that has diminished returns in auto powers is Power Transfer when there are other Power Transfers slotted. All other procs/IOs have no impact on Power Transfers proc. 

 

The only other known procs that only can proc once per cast are Force Feedback (which doesn't get slotted into an auto) and Call of the Sandman (which doesn't get slotted into an auto). So the behavior I described is strictly a Power Transfer concern, as it also only can proc once per cast, but because auto powers are synchronized with proc ticks, the other autos are effectively being treated as the same cast (thus up to only one proc can trigger).

 

Slot as many Performance Shifters as you want, they can't hurt you.

[Brutal Justice]

If you use power transfer in a power like conserve power, consume, or victory rush, does it only have one chance for activation?   Or does it have a chance to trigger during the duration of the power, separately from the passives?

 

Edit:  according to the wiki conserve power will not accept the IO.  I believe the basis of the question still applies.  Also add the interactions with blaster sustains.  

Edited May 12, 2020 by Brutal Justice

[Bopper]

13 minutes ago, Brutal Justice said:

If you use power transfer in a power like conserve power, consume, or victory rush, does it only have one chance for activation?   Or does it have a chance to trigger during the duration of the power, separately from the passives?

 

Edit:  according to the wiki conserve power will not accept the IO.  I believe the basis of the question still applies.  Also add the interactions with blaster sustains.  

I don't know what blaster sustains do, so I'll leave someone else to answer that. You're right, Conserve Power, Energize and other endurance discount powers don't take endurance modification IOs, so Power Tansfer can't be slotted.

 

Consume will only proc Power Transfer up to one time on one cast. But the chance to proc is still checked on each target hit, so you greatly increase your chance of getting that one PT proc.

 

I don't know Victory Rush's mechanics intimately, but I suspect it would trigger only once with PT proc.

 

If anyone is familiar with how Force Feedback works, Power Transfer works the same way (procs only once per cast). It truly is the silliness/bug of autopowers being synchronized causing only one PT proc to fire between all the auto powers at a single instance of time. If the proc was working as intended, the chance to proc between all auto powers would be independent and you could get multiple PT procs during each auto proc tick chance. Until that's fixed, just know autopowers are being treated as one cast of PT, thus only one PT can proc (but with better reliability because you have more autopowers with a chance to proc...it requires all to miss for the proc to not fire).

[Sir Myshkin]

Quote

If the proc was working as intended, the chance to proc between all auto powers would be independent and you could get multiple PT procs during each auto proc tick chance. Until that's fixed, just know autopowers are being treated as one cast of PT, thus only one PT can proc (but with better reliability because you have more autopowers with a chance to proc...it requires all to miss for the proc to not fire)

Out of limited testing with it, I will say that having multiple auto powers slotted came off-the-bat as better long-term results. Even with having two abilities slotted with the PT+Heal proc, there were still activation triggers that failed to fire so it wasn't consistent, but better than just one. Now knowing that part of the problem is that they're eating each other is unfortunate and means that there could have been even greater potential than what we've ended up with. I'm not sure it feels like it'll be worth the extra slot now (when focused on auto's specifically) like I'd been expecting.

 

I will say this does bring into consideration an interesting way to manage further proc development from the dev team. Of the talks about power interactions with procs going forward, having these limited-style trigger locks could give more focused control over proc use (and abuse) moving forward. I'm curious if the flag on the PT+Heal flag to be a one-time fire was intentional, or an unintended side effect of the coding process.

[Bopper]

9 minutes ago, Sir Myshkin said:

Out of limited testing with it, I will say that having multiple auto powers slotted came off-the-bat as better long-term results. Even with having two abilities slotted with the PT+Heal proc, there were still activation triggers that failed to fire so it wasn't consistent, but better than just one. Now knowing that part of the problem is that they're eating each other is unfortunate and means that there could have been even greater potential than what we've ended up with. I'm not sure it feels like it'll be worth the extra slot now (when focused on auto's specifically) like I'd been expecting.

 

I will say this does bring into consideration an interesting way to manage further proc development from the dev team. Of the talks about power interactions with procs going forward, having these limited-style trigger locks could give more focused control over proc use (and abuse) moving forward. I'm curious if the flag on the PT+Heal flag to be a one-time fire was intentional, or an unintended side effect of the coding process.

I think it was an effect of the coding process. Maybe this is how other "one proc only" procs work and this is the first time we've seen the effects of that type of proc in an auto. Perhaps there are toggles that do knockback that could stack, and maybe we'd see dampened effects with multiple force feedback, but that would be a very niche situation.

 

Overall, I'd probably only slot one in an auto...2 at most if there's room. There are cases where even having half the expected value of PT still compares well to slotting up Health for regen. In the end, though, I think an electric armor tank would leverage the proc the best since its lightning field could easily become asynchronized with an auto by re-toggling it whenever you zone in. 

 

Or....if you want to be a psychopath, you could unslot and reslot the PT proc in an auto everytime you load into a new map. You'll make the asynchronized and get the full 3 PPM benefits once again...until your next map load. I dont advise this for anyone, I'm only providing silly game mechanics people could consider.

[Bopper]

Added new chart to reflect what the +HP proc's equivalent regeneration is as an easy comparison to +Regeneration IOs. This isn't new findings, just a new way of comparing.

[Fire Chief]

Awesome charts 🙂

 

[macskull]

@Bopper - I think there's a pretty obscure discrepancy with some of the original numbers but I might just be thinking about it wrong. Corruptors, HEATs, and VEATs all share the same base HP so at first glance it makes sense that the numbers would be the same for the +regen procs except VEATs have a higher base regen which means they'd get different numbers out of the +regen procs. I know it wouldn't make the +regen procs more valuable than the +hp procs, but it does mean the numbers for +regen for VEATs in the table are slightly lower than what should be ingame.

Edited August 22, 2020 by macskull

[Bopper]

26 minutes ago, macskull said:

@Bopper - I think there's a pretty obscure discrepancy with some of the original numbers but I might just be thinking about it wrong. Corruptors, HEATs, and VEATs all share the same base HP so at first glance it makes sense that the numbers would be the same for the +regen procs except VEATs have a higher base regen which means they'd get different numbers out of the +regen procs. I know it wouldn't make the +regen procs more valuable than the +hp procs, but it does mean the numbers for +regen for VEATs in the table are slightly lower than what should be ingame.

I'm unfamiliar with VEATS so can you explain the impact of higher base regeneration? For example, if VEATs have a base of 150% regeneration, and you get a set bonus of 10% regeneration, does that set bonus have a different Healing per Second impact than another AT that also has a 10% regeneration set bonus? 

[Gulbasaur]

1 hour ago, Bopper said:

I'm unfamiliar with VEATS so can you explain the impact of higher base regeneration? For example, if VEATs have a base of 150% regeneration, and you get a set bonus of 10% regeneration, does that set bonus have a different Healing per Second impact than another AT that also has a 10% regeneration set bonus? 

VEATs have a higher base endurance recovery and regen. It's an increased base amount rather than a buff, so things that multiply regen multiply off the higher base (unless I'm wrong). 

 

Vanden did a breakdown of it here for endurance but I think they get a 5% higher base rate for both. 

Edit: It looks like Conditioning might be 20% not 5% so the standard base regen is 5% every 12 seconds, but VEATs regen 6% every 12 seconds (without factoring in Health, which multiplies off the base but effectively they get 20% more bang for their buck with anything that increases regen). 

Edited August 22, 2020 by Gulbasaur

[Bopper]

10 minutes ago, Gulbasaur said:

VEATs have a base endurance recovery and regen. It's an increased base amount rather than a buff, so things that multiply regen multiply off the higher base (unless I'm wrong). 

 

Vanden did a breakdown of it here for endurance but I think they get a 5% higher base rate for both. 

Edit: It looks like Conditioning might be 20% not 5% so the standard base regen is 5% every 12 seconds, but VEATs regen 6% every 12 seconds (without factoring in Health, which multiplies off the base). 

Thank you, and thank you @macskull for bringing this to my attention. I did see that typical ATs have a Base Regen of 0.25 and Base Recovery of 1.00, while VEATs have a Base Regen of 0.30 and Base Recovery of 1.05. I wasn't sure if this meant VEATs at base would be 5% of their HP every 10 seconds or if it meant they get 6% of their HP every 12 seconds. Thanks for clarifying that for me. I'll update this chart (and my Survivor Tool) with this information soon.

[Gulbasaur]

2 minutes ago, Bopper said:

Thank you, and thank you @macskull for bringing this to my attention. I did see that typical ATs have a Base Regen of 0.25 and Base Recovery of 1.00, while VEATs have a Base Regen of 0.30 and Base Recovery of 1.05. I wasn't sure if this meant VEATs at base would be 5% of their HP every 10 seconds or if it meant they get 6% of their HP every 12 seconds. Thanks for clarifying that for me. I'll update this chart (and my Survivor Tool) with this information soon.

Having obsessively tweaked my fortunado build to within a nanometre, it's just one of them things I knew about in too much detail. Vanden mentioned it here (forgot to add my source in the above post). 

 

Keep up the good work, Bopper! 

[Marshal_General]

Does this chart take into account the other chart that showed that if you have four PT procs in auto powers it increased the chance of a proc every 10 seconds to around 97%?

[Bopper]

5 hours ago, Marshal_General said:

Does this chart take into account the other chart that showed that if you have four PT procs in auto powers it increased the chance of a proc every 10 seconds to around 97%?

It does not

[Bopper]

On 8/22/2020 at 12:28 PM, Gulbasaur said:

Having obsessively tweaked my fortunado build to within a nanometre, it's just one of them things I knew about in too much detail. Vanden mentioned it here (forgot to add my source in the above post). 

 

Keep up the good work, Bopper! 

Finally got around to correcting the charts. I did test it out and it showed Arachnos still have their regeneration ticks do 5% HP and their recovery ticks do 1/15th Endurance. So Conditioning does in fact increase the base frequency of regeneration/recovery ticks. In this case, the base regeneration for VEATS is 10s (instead of 12s), and the base recovery is 3.81s (instead of 4s). 

[Gulbasaur]

15 hours ago, Bopper said:

Finally got around to correcting the charts. I did test it out and it showed Arachnos still have their regeneration ticks do 5% HP and their recovery ticks do 1/15th Endurance. So Conditioning does in fact increase the base frequency of regeneration/recovery ticks. In this case, the base regeneration for VEATS is 10s (instead of 12s), and the base recovery is 3.81s (instead of 4s). 

Oh, nice. I stand corrected. Thanks. 

[kiramon]

🤭

[Daytona Ral]

Questions about the synchronization of auto powers and procs:

1) Just so I'm clear:  If I were to slot all of the regen/+HP procs, that actually works against me because Panacea procing in Health would block Power Transfer procing in Stamina, and so on, correct? And this also applies to Impervious Skin? PT will interfere with that Proc as well?

 

2) What happens if you have more than one of these procs in one auto power? (I frequently six slot health and include procs from Numina, Miracle, Panacea, and Preventative Medicine; in my Regen I divide them between Fast Healing and Health, but each has more than one proc in them)

 

3) Do the PT procs only interfere with each other? or do they interfere with the procs from the other sets as well? (I think this is likely just a clearer way of asking question one, but I'll leave both in here).

 

I'm a firm believer in science... I just don't understand it very well 🙂 Assistance with understanding what I'm looking at and reading would be greatly appreciated.

Follow on:

Does this synchronization of auto powers cause the same problem for Performance Shifter Chance for +Endurance? If you use more than one PS Proc, do you lose effectiveness? Anyone know?

Edited October 6, 2020 by Daytona Ral

[Bopper]

2 minutes ago, Daytona Ral said:

Questions about the synchronization of auto powers and procs:

1) Just so I'm clear:  If I were to slot all of the regen/+HP procs, that actually works against me because Panacea procing in Health would block Power Transfer procing in Stamina, and so on, correct? And this also applies to Impervious Skin? PT will interfere with that Proc as well?

 

2) What happens if you have more than one of these procs in one auto power? (I frequently six slot health and include procs from Numina, Miracle, Panacea, and Preventative Medicine; in my Regen I divide them between Fast Healing and Health, but each has more than one proc in them)

 

3) Do the PT procs only interfere with each other? or do they interfere with the procs from the other sets as well? (I think this is likely just a clearer way of asking question one, but I'll leave both in here).

 

I'm a firm believer in science... I just don't understand it very well 🙂 Assistance with understanding what I'm looking at and reading would be greatly appreciated.

1) You will be fine. The only proc that has the weird mechanics due to auto/toggle powers synching up is Power Transfer because that proc is specifically mechanized to only proc once when cast. For whatever reason, that mechanization is causing it to not proc more than once despite the fact you have the proc slotted in different powers. So do not worry about your Panacea or other procs, this is a Power Transfer proc problem only.

 

2) Nothing happens. It works as you would expect. All procs working independently of each other with no negative effects.

 

3) Only interferes with each other. The only other proc I know of that would act this way would be Call of the Sandman, but I am unfamiliar with any character being able to slot two auto/toggle sleep powers.