Granite Armor Changes

[Alchemystic]

I understand a change like this is likely to be unfavorable amongst some players, and I would like to preface it with a statement: This is just some theorycrafting over a development decision that has become a little outmoded, and what we can do to address that.

 

Okay, so to keep it short, Granite Armor kinda sucks. Not because it has poor defense values, but because it invalidates a lot of the power picks you made along the way. I for one would love to play a Stone Armor character where I didn't have powers that were once useful being rendered into slot mules with no active role in my gameplay. 

 

Granite Armor feels disjointed from the rest of the powerset, and this may be down to the visual element of the powerset. The appearance of Granite armor is that of a huge devouring earth mob, which as you could probably tell, looks rather different to the stone textures from other powers. Having huge chunks of rock from the other powers in Stone Armor tend to look rather strange when placed on the Granite Armor model, which is likely why the original developers thought to make it disable those powers.

 

So how do we address this? simple- we change the Granite Armor model.

What to you might ask? Well I'm sure many people wouldn't like to part with the idea of turning into a giant stone monstrosity, which is why I propose using the three different models of Stone Golem available in the Animate Stone power of Earth Control (Standard/Lava/Crystal) and then scaling the model to be 2x or maybe 3x bigger to recreate the colossal nature of Granite Armor.

Now we have a model that works well with the rest of the Stone Armor powers, so the restrictions to what powers can be active at the same time can be lifted... however! having all these powers at the same time now means that your defense/resistance values will go through the roof, so there has to be some sort of compromise in order to level things out: It would perhaps have to work as a click power like other T9 powers, with similar values and recharge time. Of course, this would mean the ability to go around with Granite Armor active indefinitely would be lost, but the overall value of the powersets other powers would increase.

 

Hopefully with a Granite Armor model that compliments the rest of the powerset, and a few tweaks and changes to its functionality, the entire powerset can behave more in-line with the rest of the armor/aura powersets that it has been struggling to compete with.

However, given that these changes can change the very dynamic of the powerset, I propose that the old and new Granite Armor abilities become separate powers if possible (much like Practiced Brawler/Master Brawler in the Sentinel version of Super-Reflexes) and restrict the player to picking which version they would rather have. I have heard that the Homecoming team said that they are trying to avoid this kind of mechanic in future powersets, but I think that this situation it would serve well as an 'old vs new' choice available to players.

 

EDIT: Here is the proposed 'option 2' for the multiple choice T9 based off Practiced/Master Brawler.

 

 Ore Armor: Click: Self +Absorb, +DEF (melee, ranged, AoE)When you activate this power, you encase yourself in an armor made out of metallic ores and minerals, granting you increased defense and significant damage absorption. In addition, when selecting this power you gain additional secondary effects to some of your other Stone Armor powers. Rock Armor grants resistance to Knockback, Repel and Immobilize. Brimstone Armor grants defense to fire and cold damage, and resistance to hold. Crystal Armor grants resistance to energy and negative damage, and resistance to endurance drain. Minerals grants you resistance to disorient, sleep, fear, taunt and placate. When you select this power, you cannot also choose Granite Armor.

(this power would by default have the visuals of Animate Stone and its three different FX themes)

 

Edited June 4, 2020 by Tyrannical

[Outrider_01]

5 hours ago, Tyrannical said:

Having huge chunks of rock from the other powers in Stone Armor tend to look rather strange when placed on the Granite Armor model, which is likely why the original developers thought to make it disable those powers.

I am not a developer, a game designer, definitely not the sharpest tool in the shed and I can be dumb as dirt sometimes but it is not because of the graphics. 

 

The powers suppress for a different reason. 

• You are 25% typed def all less fire cold/fire and 40% Psi with the toggles; 3 slotted each. 
• In Granite 6 slot 3 def / 3 resist, you are 32% typed def all less Psi an and capped S/L while 80% resist everything else. 

These are tanker numbers with plain IO, so basically with the minimum of slotting a Granite tanker is mostly immune vs all and a Rolling Boulder from Indiana Jones; if they have a kinetic friend.  And unlock a T9 click, surprisingly you can run it 24/7/365.  1 Toggle, that trumps a click in other sets.

 

Unstoppable murder machine, with absolutely no crash.  Part Invulnerable (Granite), Part Super Reflex (Toggles), Part Regen (Root, low regen), has a heal to boot....and its only penalty is slow speed, -recharge, and -damage which are all easy to fix with a Kinetic friend for maximum ass kicking.   Its an all rounder.

 

tl;dr - Its got it all in the defense/resist side.  Can play toggles or granite; which ever you prefer.  Bring a Kinetic friend, they are great at parties and fix everything; a rolling good time .

 

If its just graphic complaint, Mimimal GFX option exists for other armor sets and quite a few power pools; probably the easiest fix with minimal effort to port over the code (check out Bio Armor).  Thank god for invisible Hasten hands.

Edited June 4, 2020 by Outrider_01

[Galaxy Brain]

4 hours ago, Outrider_01 said:

tl;dr - Its got it all in the defense/resist side.  Can play toggles or granite; which ever you prefer.  Bring a Kinetic friend, they are great at parties and fix everything; a rolling good time .

*dead horse* this is ironically a problem nowadays though, as other sets can reach that unstoppable-level of defenses without needing drawbacks thanks to IO's, and without needing a Kin... or if they have a Kin they get much more benefit from them as they aren't starting from "behind".

Edited June 4, 2020 by Galaxy Brain

[Alchemystic]

4 hours ago, Outrider_01 said:

The powers suppress for a different reason. 

• You are 25% typed def all less fire cold/fire and 40% Psi with the toggles; 3 slotted each. 
• In Granite 6 slot 3 def / 3 resist, you are 32% typed def all less Psi an and capped S/L while 80% resist everything else. 

These are tanker numbers with plain IO, so basically with the minimum of slotting a Granite tanker is mostly immune vs all and a Rolling Boulder from Indiana Jones; if they have a kinetic friend.  And unlock a T9 click, surprisingly you can run it 24/7/365.  1 Toggle, that trumps a click in other sets.

 

Unstoppable murder machine, with absolutely no crash.  Part Invulnerable (Granite), Part Super Reflex (Toggles), Part Regen (Root, low regen), has a heal to boot....and its only penalty is slow speed, -recharge, and -damage which are all easy to fix with a Kinetic friend for maximum ass kicking.   Its an all rounder.

I'm aware that the numbers are quite high, but I believe that's to compensate for the fact that the power disables so many other sources of defense/resistance.

 

If Granite Armor was remade into a click power that didn't disable anything, those numbers would be changed so it lines up with other T9 powers, and measured accordingly when used with your other toggles.

 

side note: having the powerset rely on a teammate with Kinetics to alleviate the debuffs is just poor game design, and reinforces the fact this powerset needs to be changed.

 

Removing the slow and -damage aspect of Granite Armor would be a nice change , and I believe there were talks about the same treatment to Rooted.

Edited June 4, 2020 by Tyrannical

[Nanolathe]

If Granite Armour is changed into a regular "click" T9 armour power I think that no one would ever use it. Those powers have just as many issues as Granite does, just in a different direction.

[Alchemystic]

23 minutes ago, Nanolathe said:

If Granite Armour is changed into a regular "click" T9 armour power I think that no one would ever use it. Those powers have just as many issues as Granite does, just in a different direction.

I think the issue is that people are forced to use T9 powers regardless, so if that's the case, changing Granite Armor so its has less penalty than the other T9 powers is a good move.

[MTeague]

I'd like a new Visual appearance for Granite.  As it is right now, I'll never even select Granite if it turns my character in a stone slab and I can't see the costumes I worked on for so long. 

 

I'm indifferent on power changes. 

 

I do think Granite should *probably* remain a toggle, just because it was an Issue 0 power, and I think it would be massively disruptive to existing characters who have Granite and who simply respec out of the lower toggles for one build and keep the lower toggles only for a second Exemplar build.  At the very least, I think you'd need to give Freespecs out if you started changing something so basic at this time. 

 

At the same time, I think "Team with a Kin" isn't a stance I'm 100% comfortable with if it's meant as "There's your solution". I mean, my main is a Mind/Kin.  Kin rocks.  Teaming with Kin is good.  But CoH has striven to be a "Bring the player, not the character / not specific powerset combos".  So I think there's grounds to stay maybe it's time to ease up on at least the MOVEMENT penalties for Granite. Even if you keep the -Recharge, even if you keep the -Damage, at least let them move at a reasonable pace and allow them to jump up as high as a lvl 1 character (no hurdle, just basic unslotted jump height).  I think that would still be a big QoL change to help Granite without making it an automatic clear best choice.

 

And if you DO happen to team with a Kin, well, you still will very much enjoy the buffs they can provide. (+Recovery, +Recharge, +Damage, etc)

Edited June 4, 2020 by MTeague

[Bopper]

I am all for adding different graphics options for Granite Armor, much like how we have different animation options for powers.

 

I am all for removing the movement penalty of Rooted, letting it work like Grounded...if you are off the ground (which you currently can't do in rooted) you lose the effects of the power, but you can run/sprint to your liking and you can jump when you want to (yay, you can use CJ). It still keeps its thematic purposes (being rooted to the earth to gain strength). But it doesn't force you into another mez protect (Granite being the other) that can't jump onto a curb.

 

Those are honestly the only changes I want to see with Stone Armor. I like that the set is unique to other sets, having a T9 you can remain in, but have a penalty that forces you to consider not being in T9 all the time. 

Edited June 4, 2020 by Bopper

[AerialAssault]

Hot take: Granite Armour is the most powerful T9 out of all the Defence sets. It has massive advantages with virtually no drawbacks save one; mobility. I know this isn't really crux to the argument, but I believe that should remain with one exception, allow the player to jump. Devouring Earth can also jump, even the Giant Monsters (much to my surprise), so I feel it would only be fair to allow the player a small jump allowance. Having Granite Armour run with the rest of the toggles would make Stone Armour a top-tier set overnight, and trying to balance that by making Granite Armour a toggle would upset a lot of people (me included).

 

In the meta sense however, Granite Armour has flawed design, in that it more or less invalidates previous power picks. This isn't to say that the toggles are bad. They're .. well they do their job. But I've not seen any strong argument for running the toggles when you could run Granite Armour, aside from the mobility issues, which don't even wash because the toggles status protection is tied into Rooted, which makes you virtually immobile. 

 

My suggestion is to follow the Fighting and Medicine route and make the Toggles provide passive bonuses to Granite Armour when not active, and Granite Armour conferring bonuses back to the Toggles when not active. What would these bonuses be? Don't know! I thought of this in like five minutes. At least then people won't feel like their power picks are a waste, and maybe they'll try playing Toggles-On rather than sticking to Granite Armour.

[Bopper]

30 minutes ago, AerialAssault said:

I know this isn't really crux to the argument, but I believe that should remain with one exception, allow the player to jump

I like the idea. You can still have Granite turnoff all travel powers (sprint, CJ, ninja run, superjump, etc), but allow a Granite Tank to retain the base 4ft jump height. Even with temp powers, Hurdle (inherent), and Alpha incarnates, you're probably looking at maxing that out at 9ft (without a Kin). That's not much, but it would still be a QoL improvement without taking away the fact Granite comes with a nuisance penalty.

[Solarverse]

I want the set to be viable WITHOUT Granite, just like all the other sets. Remove the slow from rooted and buff some of the resistance on the regular toggles...done. New models for options as well, especially for the T9. Maybe add a Lava skin.

[Alchemystic]

5 hours ago, AerialAssault said:

In the meta sense however, Granite Armour has flawed design, in that it more or less invalidates previous power picks. This isn't to say that the toggles are bad. They're .. well they do their job. But I've not seen any strong argument for running the toggles when you could run Granite Armour, aside from the mobility issues, which don't even wash because the toggles status protection is tied into Rooted, which makes you virtually immobile. 

 

My suggestion is to follow the Fighting and Medicine route and make the Toggles provide passive bonuses to Granite Armour when not active, and Granite Armour conferring bonuses back to the Toggles when not active. What would these bonuses be? Don't know! I thought of this in like five minutes. At least then people won't feel like their power picks are a waste, and maybe they'll try playing Toggles-On rather than sticking to Granite Armour.

I think this plays wuite nicely with the 'two options' model for Granite Armor.

Practiced Brawler works exactly as it does on any other archetype, which should be the case for (old) Granite Armor.

Master Brawler is a different power choice, but when picked it gives additional functionality to the other powers in the set, much like how Fighting and Medicine does.

With that in mind, I propose that if we do opt for the route where we keep Granite Armor, but offer a second choice for a T9, it should perhaps work as so;

 Ore Armor: Click: Self +Absorb, +DEF (melee, ranged, AoE)
When you activate this power, you encase yourself in an armor made out of metallic ores and minerals, granting you increased defense and significant damage absorption. In addition, when selecting this power you gain additional secondary effects to some of your other Stone Armor powers. Rock Armor grants resistance to Knockback, Repel and Immobilize. Brimstone Armor grants defense to fire and cold damage, and resistance to hold. Crystal Armor grants resistance to energy and negative damage, and resistance to endurance drain. Minerals grants you resistance to disorient, sleep, fear, taunt and placate. When you select this power, you cannot also choose Granite Armor.

(this power would by default have the visuals of Animate Stone and its three different FX themes)

Edited June 4, 2020 by Tyrannical

[Night]

Options are definitely good, and as long as the old power would still be available to go for, there's no reason not to add more to a set! Currently once you get GA there's no reason to keep the other armors, so ways to make them still useful are good.

 

And as a sidenote, there was once a bug which, at least visually, let you run all the armors at once, so that's how it'd all look like

 

Edited June 4, 2020 by Night

[Alchemystic]

34 minutes ago, Night said:

And as a sidenote, there was once a bug which, at least visually, let you run all the armors at once, so that's how it'd all look like

 

This is exactly the graphical mess that I imagine the devs wanted to avoid... yikes.

[Troo]

Betch Pleez (stone / martial arts tanker) would like to throw out there that running granite all the time might be doing it wrong.

 

[Alchemystic]

41 minutes ago, Troo said:

Betch Pleez (stone / martial arts tanker) would like to throw out there that running granite all the time might be doing it wrong.

I'd imagine even with Granite being a click-power people would still find a way to make it perma. 

Edited June 5, 2020 by Tyrannical

[Hyperstrike]

7 hours ago, AerialAssault said:

Hot take: Granite Armour is the most powerful T9 out of all the Defence sets. It has massive advantages with virtually no drawbacks save one; mobility.

 

Incorrect.

Yes, the mobility debuff is the most consistently aggravating.
 

Quote

Granite Godling: Brutal Badguy!  You have defeated me!
Hanger Zon: HOW?
PL MEH: That looks...like a...curb?
Granite Godling: I AM UNDONE!

Yes, you're getting -Speed, but you're ALSO getting -Recharge and -Damage as well.

So, what's the use of being able to stand there against an enemy 24/7 if you can't actually DEFEAT it?  Or you're just barely able to, but it's ALWAYS stretched into a TWO HOUR click-fest SLOG?


Now, if we're taking into account IOs and the Alpha slot, Stone WITHOUT Granite is still VERY MUCH usable.

Also, because I can, I'm going to throw another option out there.

I know Stone needs some updates, but I'm unsure, at this point, what would be the "Best" direction to go.
 

Edited June 5, 2020 by Hyperstrike

[Snowdaze]

Nerf Fire aura...

 

Please leave my granite alone.

[AerialAssault]

8 hours ago, Hyperstrike said:

 

Incorrect.

Yes, the mobility debuff is the most consistently aggravating.
 

Yes, you're getting -Speed, but you're ALSO getting -Recharge and -Damage as well.

So, what's the use of being able to stand there against an enemy 24/7 if you can't actually DEFEAT it?  Or you're just barely able to, but it's ALWAYS stretched into a TWO HOUR click-fest SLOG?


Now, if we're taking into account IOs and the Alpha slot, Stone WITHOUT Granite is still VERY MUCH usable.

Also, because I can, I'm going to throw another option out there.

I know Stone needs some updates, but I'm unsure, at this point, what would be the "Best" direction to go.
 

I never said it was flawless, and even in the quote you used I said that mobility was it's greatest weaknesses.

 

However, there is little it's peers do that it doesn't already do as a toggle. Someone using Unstoppable is good for maybe two mobs of enemies, Granite Armour offers the same resilience at all times, in exchange for mobility, which is pretty easy to overcome by utilizing movement speed increases from IOs and using Taunt.

 

I will grant that Radiation and Bio's T9's are close contenders though, they're both strong powers that can be used often with virtually no drawback.

[Zeraphia]

I've ranked Stone Armor as the worst armor in the game due to its mobility being too punishing in the current state of the game.

 

I'm sorry but as a Tanker, you need to be fast. You need to be leading the pack to do the "job" and not just trying to keep up from behind teleporting. Switching between Granite and Super Speed is the "best" solution I've seen to it, but it's a very clunky one at best. No one needs Stones for anything anymore, buffs and the kill rates of other teammates have nullified the need for such extreme defenses. Rad has almost totally eclipsed Stone as the "meta" Tank set by getting 90% of what Stone gets to protect itself and honestly having a lot better defenses against Psionic damage (which is in no shortage late-game) with 0 of the drawback and a lot of positive buffs... It's the harsh reality of how the game is shaped and how quickly damage is being thrown out that Granite has unfortunately lost its place if you're playing with minimally competent players. I'm being serious when I say I've never seen a Rad Tanker unable to tank what a Stone can with the right build. That type of content just does not exist right now, but I can indeed think of situations where I've seen Stones get crushed by very high Psionic damaging enemies, Rad does not suffer this problem.

 

IMO, to be a very good Tanker, you really need mobility. You need to be as fast as physically possible in the game, I cannot stress this enough, and you need it to do your job as a Tanker more than any other archetype. Stone IMO pays the ultimate price for Tankiness, it's an effective "null." I like @Bopper's suggestion with Rooted.

 

That aside, speaking from an artistic point of view, I think Granite could badly use a type of "crystalline" armor GFX option. 🙂

Edited June 5, 2020 by Zeraphia

[Hyperstrike]

1 hour ago, AerialAssault said:

I never said it was flawless, and even in the quote you used I said that mobility was it's greatest weaknesses.

No.  I said most consistently aggravating.

I consider the -DMG, on a class that already struggles with "arresting" power to be the greatest weakness.
 

1 hour ago, AerialAssault said:

However, there is little it's peers do that it doesn't already do as a toggle. Someone using Unstoppable is good for maybe two mobs of enemies, Granite Armour offers the same resilience at all times, in exchange for mobility, which is pretty easy to overcome by utilizing movement speed increases from IOs and using Taunt.

 

I will grant that Radiation and Bio's T9's are close contenders though, they're both strong powers that can be used often with virtually no drawback.

This is why I'm saying that I know the set needs tweaking.  I just don't know what tweaks could be made without severely unbalancing the set.

[Galaxy Brain]

6 hours ago, Snowdaze said:

Nerf Fire aura...

 

Please leave my granite alone.

swap em

[Alchemystic]

2 hours ago, Zeraphia said:

That aside, speaking from an artistic point of view, I think Granite could badly use a type of "crystalline" armor GFX option. 

🙂

The Animate Stone model has a crystal FX theme like the other stone powers, one that looks pretty cool too.

[Naraka]

I know this is a Granite Armor thread, but decided to read up on some ideas tossed around for the set overall.  I'd agree to giving more options for the Granite Armor vfx, maybe give it different models like the earth control pet model, sardonyx from devouring earth and stuff.

 

As for changes to the power, how about tweeks to the set?

 

 

Those threads had some ideas and I figure I'd borrow some aspects of them.  Basically, Stone Armor is a set that has 2 separate modes: Granite mode and Other.

 

In Granite Mode, you're likely running Granite Armor, Rooted, Mud Pots and have access to Stone Skin and Earth's Embrace.

 

In Other, you've got everything of the previous mode sans Granite + Rock Armor, Brimstone Armor, Crystal Armor and Minerals.

 

My idea is to have 2-3 "pivot powers" that grant unique advantages to each mode.  Those powers could be Earth's Embrace, Mud Pots and Minerals.

 

Granite Mode - 

• Earth's Embrace has an additional effect that removes the recharge and movement speed limitations for 60sec (not the full duration of Earth's Embrace)
• Mud Pots get an additional +1 mag to its immobilize as well as a chance for +2 mag immobilize.

Other -

• If Brimstone Armor is active, Earth's Embrace also gives a moderate damage boost to all (like +20%) for 30sec as well as an additional increase to fire damage (like 15%) for 60sec.
• Minerals will impart its +perception and confuse resistance to allies within 20ft but if run with Crystal Armor, Minerals will also grant def to psi, energy and negative energy and def debuff resistance to allies within 20ft.

Of course, those are just ideas conjured up after reading other people's ideas.  There's probably better ones or even other ways to do a similar idea.  

[Hyperstrike]

Honestly, for Granite, I'd love an option to, instead of using the DE  model, just overlay normal player model with the stone texture they use on statues.

Hell, they've already done it in Incarnate New Praetorian content (the one mission where they put up a statue of you).