We've got a problem: Powerset bashing

[Industrious1]

I'm fine with some sets being better than others.  Discovering what primaries go nicely with some secondaries is half the fun.

 

I'd also like legit advice if I decided to take a question to General or Help (Personally I wouldn't, but to each their own).  Which means I don't want a unique butterfly tale of how if you build your petless MM right and you enjoy playing it, that it is just as viable as anything else in the game.  It's not.  It won't be.   Lying about the effectiveness of x over y is not the answer here.  

[marcussmythe]

Honestly, I think the feedback quality is generally high, generally fair, and far kinder to the sort of player who asks ‘whats good?’ than simply pretended things are not what they are. 

If someone really wants to heal fast, and thinks that means regen, you can suggest that they at least -look- at Regen 2.0 (WP) and Regen 3.5 (Bio), while noting that depsite being strictly worse, original regen is still quite playable.  Similarly for Energy Melee - sure, you could do glowy fist-punch 1.0, but with Kinetic Melee, StJ (with a glow aura on your hands in combat) and Radiation Melee around, have you considered your better options (while noting that EM can still be fun and rewarding).  Battle Axe?  Can I sell you a Sword (maybe two!) or a Mace instead?  (I honestly don't recommend TW, not without lots of warnings)

 

I see the proper solution to people saying sets are terrible as positive action to make them not terrible, rather than to let some poor person invest massive time and energy only to realize that their uniformed choice has undermined that time and effort.  If you are fairly warned and choose to embrace the suck, well, thats a valid choice, and I tip my hat.

[Sailboat]

8 hours ago, Bentley Berkeley said:

However, I feel that the best approach is for you to simply interject and challenge others when you see them stating things in chat you feel are wrong.

Bentley my friend, I like your suggestion.  But was it really necessary to quote the entire OP in a response on the first page, where the OP itself is still visible for reference?  🤔

[Coyote]

12 hours ago, Yomo Kimyata said:

Nerf regen.

 

So far, this thread is delivering on the entertainment value.

[kiramon]

2 hours ago, Industrious1 said:

I'm fine with some sets being better than others.  Discovering what primaries go nicely with some secondaries is half the fun.

 

I'd also like legit advice if I decided to take a question to General or Help (Personally I wouldn't, but to each their own).  Which means I don't want a unique butterfly tale of how if you build your petless MM right and you enjoy playing it, that it is just as viable as anything else in the game.  It's not.  It won't be.   Lying about the effectiveness of x over y is not the answer here.  

There is a lot of anecdotal experience about how great some known underperforming build is- take em with a grain of salt 

[Yomo Kimyata]

14 hours ago, mechahamham said:

As the HC community grows and we engage both returning CoH and new players, we're developing a pretty serious problem. A vocal minority of players loudly deride certain power-sets in help and general chat. Some of these are people who are still bitter about nerfs that happened over a decade ago. Some just want to complain. The end result is the same -- new and returning players both hear power-sets described as inadequate, under-performing, and even unplayable by others who *seem* to be knowledgeable on the subject. Please note that this isn't the same as more quantitative discussions on why powers or power-sets need re-balancing. It's also different from in-jokes about powers. 'Can we even have an update if we don't nerf regen?' isn't the same as 'Regen has been completely neutered. It's a shadow of what it used to be'. The latter is something I heard pretty much verbatim in Excelsior's general chat channel.

 

 

It's in the first paragraph!

 

Kidding aside, my opinion on the OP's post is that, yes, we all need to be make the game welcoming and as positive an experience as possible for newcomers and veterans alike.  I'm good with that.  

 

People play the game for different reasons, and (in my opinion, sadly) many players care only about what is the most powerful set, the best AT.  This forum and the Suggestions forum are full of posts about how to make things more powerful and easier.  My takeaway is that a lot of people really like feeling overpowered, and that is why they continue to play.

 

I continue to play because I like challenge and I like novelty, but that's just me.  If this game is to last another year, much less another ten years, it needs to retain current players and hopefully attract new ones.  

 

My message, and I try to be consistent with it, is to play whatever the hell kind of character you want.  You may not be able to solo an ITF on a empathy/elec defender (then again, maybe you may!).  But if you are looking to have a superpowered experience, you can do it with literally every combination of AT or powerset.  This game is not rocket science, although there are parts that may be a little head hurty.

[MunkiLord]

14 minutes ago, Yomo Kimyata said:

You may not be able to solo an ITF on a empathy/elec defender (then again, maybe you may!). 

5 billion to anyone that does it and records the entire thing from start to finish.

Edited June 12, 2020 by MunkiLord

[Yomo Kimyata]

20 minutes ago, MunkiLord said:

5 billion to anyone that does it and records the entire thing from start to finish.

5 billion and a set of Entropic Chaos!  Wait, isn't that how economics works?

[Bionic_Flea]

3 hours ago, Industrious1 said:

I'd also like legit advice if I decided to take a question to General or Help (Personally I wouldn't, but to each their own).  Which means I don't want a unique butterfly tale of how if you build your petless MM right and you enjoy playing it, that it is just as viable as anything else in the game.  It's not.  It won't be.   Lying about the effectiveness of x over y is not the answer here.

My default response is that any combination of powersets can be good enough with the right build and play style.  Some things are easier, somethings are better at certain things.  But you can take any AT and any powerset combo and solo x8 at 50.  OK, maybe not a petless MM.  But that goes under the "right build" setting.

 

And yes, there are combos that are better for fire farming, or AV soloing, or ST damage, or AoE damage.  Those things are demonstrably measurable.  But you can do all those things on characters that may not be the best but they do the job.

[Twisted Toon]

26 minutes ago, Bionic_Flea said:

My default response is that any combination of powersets can be good enough with the right build and play style.  Some things are easier, somethings are better at certain things.  But you can take any AT and any powerset combo and solo x8 at 50.  OK, maybe not a petless MM.  But that goes under the "right build" setting.

It would depend on how much patience you have.

I'm fairly certain you can at least get rid of most everything except maybe the AVs/EBs given enough time and tactics (not the power).

I could see a demon/traps petless MM, with flight and TP foe, doing some damage in there.

[DominusNox]

Make Instant Healing a toggle again? 🙂

 

(kidding, kidding...)

[arcane]

The only ones I’ve played on HC that I’ve decided deserve to be the butt of many jokes are Assault Rifle and the Mastermind AT.

[Oubliette_Red]

[Oubliette_Red]

Personally, I just create characters with the powersets that fit my concept. I couldn't care less what others opinions are of any given powerset, they are not playing my character.

 

[nihilii]

2 hours ago, MunkiLord said:

5 billion to anyone that does it and records the entire thing from start to finish.

I don't want the money but you tempt me. Fortitude + AB on Lore pets can work wonders, you know... (And even if we disallow Lore, PPP pets can be made perma to great effect!).

I think there's a prominent defender poster who probably has done it already, anyway. @Linea if memory doesn't fail?

[Force Redux]

Just going to add that the best way to deal with negativity is to introduce more positivity. Be the change you want to see, right?

 

So, be helpful, offer realistic and down-to-earth encouragement both in the forums and in-game on the /chats. Don't get dragged into arguments. Be positive in teams. Not only about power sets, or about nerfs or buffs or NC Soft talks, but about things in general. Take the higher path. Be the voice of encouragement. At least, that's my goal, both IRL and IG.

 

Also, be careful to avoid being a Pollyanna (overly optimistic), because that's just as bothersome and unrealistic.

 

Just my 2 INF. 

[Force Redux]

1 hour ago, arcaneholocaust said:

The only ones I’ve played on HC that I’ve decided deserve to be the butt of many jokes are Assault Rifle and the Mastermind AT.

Now, you just take that back right now, sir.... 😛😀

[MunkiLord]

7 minutes ago, nihilii said:

I don't want the money but you tempt me. Fortitude + AB on Lore pets can work wonders, you know... (And even if we disallow Lore, PPP pets can be made perma to great effect!).

I think there's a prominent defender poster who probably has done it already, anyway. @Linea if memory doesn't fail?

If you do it and don't want the money, I'll give still give it to anyone you want. And I personally consider Lore Pets acceptable for this challenge, though I would be curious to see how possible it would be without them.

[Force Redux]

2 hours ago, MunkiLord said:

5 billion to anyone that does it and records the entire thing from start to finish.

I swear I've been on an ITF with an Empath/* who could have solo'd the whole darn thing herself. Not sure of primary. I should have screen capped her. She was amazing. On Everlasting.

[MunkiLord]

7 minutes ago, Force Redux said:

I swear I've been on an ITF with an Empath/* who could have solo'd the whole darn thing herself. Not sure of primary. I should have screen capped her. She was amazing. On Everlasting.

I don't doubt it, I just think it'd be awesome to see. And impressive.

[Doomguide2005]

1 hour ago, nihilii said:

I don't want the money but you tempt me. Fortitude + AB on Lore pets can work wonders, you know... (And even if we disallow Lore, PPP pets can be made perma to great effect!).

I think there's a prominent defender poster who probably has done it already, anyway. @Linea if memory doesn't fail?

It was @Linea on an Emp/Fire/Soul set at +4/×8.  And yes the build can handle a wide variety of +4/×8 foes and is crazy tough.   The screen shots of the completed ITF were posted in the Defender forums as is the build iirc. Alas it was not a /Elec or someone might shortly be out 5 billion 😁

Edited June 12, 2020 by Doomguide2005
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[Skyhawke]

Play. What. You. Want. That's the advice I give anyone and that I follow myself.  Get to know the game, take the "bad" with the "good" and you'll be a better player for it.  From beta til now, I've never given a rat's butt about the meta or min/maxing.  Just play what seems fun to you.  My uncle plays and he adheres to this mentality.  He's currently soloing an emp/energy defender. Soloing an empathy defender.  Let it sink in.  And he's loving it. 

[Tommy Truestar]

I really enjoy when other players answer my questions and offer me advice based on their hard won experience. This allows me to consider their experiences when I make decisions that could affect my enjoyment of the game. I have no need for you to decide for the community if we are even allowed to discuss our experiences of the game. Take your speech control somewhere else.

[Yomo Kimyata]

1 hour ago, MunkiLord said:

If you do it and don't want the money, I'll give still give it to anyone you want. And I personally consider Lore Pets acceptable for this challenge, though I would be curious to see how possible it would be without them.

I just rolled an empath/elec/mu defender for soloing redside.  No P2W powers except travel and double xp.  I named him Von Sacher-Masoch.

 

I'm hoping the PPP pet can carry me once I hit, gulp, 44.

[Doomguide2005]

5 hours ago, Yomo Kimyata said:

I just rolled an empath/elec/mu defender for soloing redside.  No P2W powers except travel and double xp.  I named him Von Sacher-Masoch.

 

I'm hoping the PPP pet can carry me once I hit, gulp, 44.

It should be fairly doable, though I wouldn't expect any speed records.  I've personally handled 2 Cimeroran bosses at once on Invincible on an Emp/Rad pre IO's (Air Sup and Cosmic Burst ftw) and level 53 mobs of Rikti without inspires, outside buffs etc. ala RWZ challenge style in the RWZ with an Emp/Sonic circa i19.  Neither had or used pets (temporary or otherwise).  The Emp/Sonic was a draw vs level 54's ... neither could kill the other.  Mez from the Rikti prevented sustained dps, they'd recover enough while she was mezzed to offset the damage done while not mezzed.

Edited June 12, 2020 by Doomguide2005