Talks with NCSoft take over a year?

[irishhawk]

This is starting to feel like 2014 all over again.  I mean what could POSSIBLY take that long to talk about?  Seriously

[Luminara]

Stuff.

[DSorrow]

Corporations can be extremely slow when dealing with stuff that isn't a high priority to them, especially when the stuff has little monetary upside, potentially significant downsides and all of the downsides can be mostly avoided by ignoring the thing. Going by my own experience with development projects in big corporations, it wouldn't surprise me at all if "talks" in this case were synonymous with an email chain where the corporation responds to your inputs once a month.

[Hyperstrike]

A slow "yes" is infinitely preferable to a quick "no".

[Luminara]

44 minutes ago, irishhawk said:

Seriously

 

Oh.  Well, serious response, then.

 

There are fine points and niggling details which must be examined, considered and discussed in any legal negotiation.  Questions which must be answered, scenarios proposed, liability determined, etc.  Even a simple query, such as, "Can we use this software?", requires lengthy analysis, proposals, counter-proposals, definition of terminology (in the U.S. judicial system, exact wording is almost always more important than intent, thus the phrase "letter of the law"), and can take months to refine to the point of an actual contract being written, and then said contract will be subject to further refinement, which can also take months.

 

And in this instance, we're dealing with an overseas firm which specializes in corporate contract negotiations and legal responses, so there are the matters of translation, legal definitions, technical definitions, interpretations of phrasing, differing perspectives of intent... before the contract negotiation even begins, they have to agree that they're talking about the same thing, in as precise legal terms as they can.  Between two entities with practically unlimited funds and full-time corporate representatives at their disposal, such discussions can take over a year.  For the HC team, who are acting as volunteers (meaning, they also have jobs and families to attend to), and who are paying a small firm which only dedicates a small portion of their time to the case, it could take a few years before the details of the proposed contract are agreed upon and written down.  That contract would then have to be reviewed, extensively (again, "letter of the law"), before a final draft is issued, further reviewed and more details discussed and clarified or changed, and only then, eventually, signed.

 

Don't lose sleep over it.  Nothing's going to happen for a long time.  NCSoft, even if they're not interested in squeezing any financial consideration out of us, won't agree to anything until they have as perfect a contract as humanly possible in their hands, in order to ensure that they have no potential repercussions which might cost them a single won in the future (such as a lawsuit by Marvel).  Since their legal team is on retainer, it costs them nothing to negotiate, so it makes no difference to them if this takes a day or a decade, financially.  So it's not going to be a swift process, but as long as the negotiations are proceeding, there's little threat of legal issues.  If they eventually decide not to allow public use of the Co* server code, it will still be a long time coming.

[Luminara]

3 minutes ago, Hyperstrike said:

A slow "yes" is infinitely preferable to a quick "no".

 

That's what she said.

[Hyperstrike]

1 minute ago, Luminara said:

 

That's what she said.

 

 

[starro]

 

well, good luck and keep trying.  Having followed all the buyout attempts I am very pessimistic but happy to be proved wrong.

 

It's kind of like the old horror movie "don't go in the barn".  We send someone into the barn and they don't come out.  Who wants to go into the barn next?

[GastlyGibus]

17 minutes ago, Luminara said:

 

Oh.  Well, serious response, then.

 

There are fine points and niggling details which must be examined, considered and discussed in any legal negotiation.  Questions which must be answered, scenarios proposed, liability determined, etc.  Even a simple query, such as, "Can we use this software?", requires lengthy analysis, proposals, counter-proposals, definition of terminology (in the U.S. judicial system, exact wording is almost always more important than intent, thus the phrase "letter of the law"), and can take months to refine to the point of an actual contract being written, and then said contract will be subject to further refinement, which can also take months.

 

And in this instance, we're dealing with an overseas firm which specializes in corporate contract negotiations and legal responses, so there are the matters of translation, legal definitions, technical definitions, interpretations of phrasing, differing perspectives of intent... before the contract negotiation even begins, they have to agree that they're talking about the same thing, in as precise legal terms as they can.  Between two entities with practically unlimited funds and full-time corporate representatives at their disposal, such discussions can take over a year.  For the HC team, who are acting as volunteers (meaning, they also have jobs and families to attend to), and who are paying a small firm which only dedicates a small portion of their time to the case, it could take a few years before the details of the proposed contract are agreed upon and written down.  That contract would then have to be reviewed, extensively (again, "letter of the law"), before a final draft is issued, further reviewed and more details discussed and clarified or changed, and only then, eventually, signed.

 

Don't lose sleep over it.  Nothing's going to happen for a long time.  NCSoft, even if they're not interested in squeezing any financial consideration out of us, won't agree to anything until they have as perfect a contract as humanly possible in their hands, in order to ensure that they have no potential repercussions which might cost them a single won in the future (such as a lawsuit by Marvel).  Since their legal team is on retainer, it costs them nothing to negotiate, so it makes no difference to them if this takes a day or a decade, financially.  So it's not going to be a swift process, but as long as the negotiations are proceeding, there's little threat of legal issues.  If they eventually decide not to allow public use of the Co* server code, it will still be a long time coming.

Luminara nailed it. Even with two big corporations who have the best of intentions and a desire to cooperate, these kinds of legal proceedings can take years. It's not such a simple matter to just say "hey, can we have the IP please?" and NCSoft going "sure, here you go."

[Vulpoid]

Don't trouble trouble until trouble troubles you.
We are playing. Enjoy.
 

[Frostbiter]

NCSoft is also a Korean company so there's additional cultural hurdles when negotiating with them. I have a friend who was an engineer for Hankook Tires thats been to Korea several times and he's told a few stories about how the business culture is very different there.

Edited June 26, 2020 by Frostbiter

[Luminara]

22 minutes ago, duane said:

Having followed all the buyout attempts I am very pessimistic but happy to be proved wrong.

 

I don't believe this is about purchasing.  A large development studio or publishing company might convince NCSoft to sell the IP, but that was never in the cards for any fan-based operation.  And given the small change value we can offer as donors, or even subscribers, there's no real money to be made in licensing fees for a company the size of NCSoft.  Most likely, the negotiations are simply for use of the server code and absolution of NCSoft in the case of liability issues.  NCSoft would retain IP rights, but wouldn't be dragged into any disputes over copyright issues.  That's a different approach from an attempt to buy the IP, and given the all but dead status of the IP, one they're likely willing to permit, as long as their collective ass is covered.

[tidge]

2 hours ago, irishhawk said:

This is starting to feel like 2014 all over again.  I mean what could POSSIBLY take that long to talk about?  Seriously

[roleki]

There's also the possibility that the glacial pace of the negotiation is a calculated response on behalf of NCSoft's accountants. 

 

They can either go all-out and waste (potentially) millions of dollars in legal fees playing C&D whack-a-mole every time a rogue server pops up, or they can put the whole ecosphere on pause while 'negotiating' with the most visible operators.

 

To put it another way, it's more economical to allow a few, known dens of iniquity to operate in plain sight than to have to commit resources to chasing down every instance that pops up, but at the same time, if they were to allow the rogue servers to go without SOME level of interaction from their legal department, then they appear to not be interested in protecting their IP. 

 

The negotiations with the Homecoming team gives NCSoft a low-cost way of keeping a finger on the IP now that it's out of the barn, and latitude to do something about it down the road.

[ImpousVileTerror]

Serious answer, @irishhawk:

https://forums.homecomingservers.com/topic/19868-something-to-help-with-context-regarding-corporate-negotiations/

[Coyote]

1 hour ago, Vulpoid said:

Don't trouble trouble until trouble troubles you.
We are playing. Enjoy.
 

 

This statement troubles me terribly with its terrible troubles. Or maybe tribbles.

[Peacemoon]

To be honest, how long are we all going to play CoH without any new content? I think we should be grateful we got this time to play again, it’s more than I ever expected.

 

I also don’t see any advantage for NCSoft to speed up the talks. The legal costs are much more of a burden for our side than their side. We’re the ones that one want something. What is it that NCSoft want from HC? Assurances they will not profit? A share of any future income? 
 

I’m not actually as cynical as I might sound above. There is an opportunity here for NCSoft to get some good publicity with meeting fans half way, and healing some of the old wounds. And I still expect to be playing CoH on and off in 5 years time if I can ☺️

[Troo]

5 hours ago, irishhawk said:

This is starting to feel like 2014 all over again.  I mean what could POSSIBLY take that long to talk about?  Seriously

 

The first rule of 'Talks' is: You do not talk about 'Talks'. The second rule of 'Talks' is: You do not talk about 'Talks'.

 

[Solarverse]

No news is good news.

[Hyperstrike]

3 hours ago, Luminara said:

I don't believe this is about purchasing. 

It isn't.  As part of the contingent that was attempting to purchase it before closure, I don't think we can expect to see it EVER sold.
Their asking price was outrageous, and even when attempts were made to get into that ballpark, they clammed up and stopped negotiating.

[Troo]

1 hour ago, Peacemoon said:

To be honest, how long are we all going to play CoH without any new content? I think we should be grateful we got this time to play again, it’s more than I ever expected.

"without any new content?"

Peace... this is simply disconnected from reality. New sets, new ATs, new player created missions, new content.. What are you talking about?

[Hardship]

17 minutes ago, Troo said:

 

The first rule of 'Talks' is: You do not talk about 'Talks'. The second rule of 'Talks' is: You do not talk about 'Talks'.

 

What 'Talks'?

[Frostbiter]

 

7 minutes ago, Hardship said:

What 'Talks'?

Money?

[Troo]

"It's only after we've lost everything that we're free to do anything."

[Peacemoon]

1 hour ago, Troo said:

"without any new content?"

Peace... this is simply disconnected from reality. New sets, new ATs, new player created missions, new content.. What are you talking about?

You’re right Troo, I suppose I meant new TFs and zones and stuff like that, rather than new features per se. Everything HC has put in the game so far has been amazing, didn’t mean to sound negative or ungrateful!