Rad or Invuln

[skoryy]

24 minutes ago, SwitchFade said:

Operative words are "can cap with barrier" and "900hp shield."

 

Rad is great, no doubt. Invuln does this with no maintenance from clickies, no barrier, no dull pain, and soft cap defense as well. There's good enough... and then there's invuln.

So the blue skittles you're chomping when fighting sappers and Carnies don't count as clickies?  Also, no damage aura or Achilles procs either.

 

And lol at 'good enough'.  Y'all are really defensive about Invuln.  Should I also bring in my WP/MA build that's also defense capped without clickies?

[Infinitum]

21 minutes ago, skoryy said:

So the blue skittles you're chomping when fighting sappers and Carnies don't count as clickies?  Also, no damage aura or Achilles procs either.

 

And lol at 'good enough'.  Y'all are really defensive about Invuln.  Should I also bring in my WP/MA build that's also defense capped without clickies?

I can fight those with focused accuracy tough weave and all the primary toggles running with no issues even with rage crash, because of 2 performance shifter procs, panacea, miracle, numinas, physical perfection.

And if it gets tougher i still can use conserve power.  I rarely do that.

 

Its not being defensive, i think its really more where the heck are you guys getting your views on invul from cause it literally is the strongest set in the game if you build it right.

 

thats not to say Rad isnt good mind you in fact it probably depends on personal preference - they both are unkillable.  I have both but the invul seems slightly more durable in every situation.

[skoryy]

2 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

thats not to say Rad isnt good mind you in fact it probably depends on personal preference - they both are unkillable.  I have both but the invul seems slightly more durable in every situation.

See, I agree.  Rad makes up the slightly more durable with being slightly more offensive.  Ultimately, its a matter of taste.

[Werner]

34 minutes ago, skoryy said:

So the blue skittles you're chomping when fighting sappers and Carnies don't count as clickies?  Also, no damage aura or Achilles procs either.

Endurance vulnerability and lack of extra damage are probably the main reasons I don’t have an Invuln. I’ve seen my friend’s Invuln get detoggled by Sappers. Not die, but get detoggled. It’s nice being able to literally ignore Sappers on my Dark. But the defense debuffs, oh Lordy the defense debuffs. I’m sure it’s pretty much the same for Rad. You pick your weaknesses, I guess.

 

Edit: to be fair, my friend’s Invuln specifically doesn’t address Invuln’s natural weaknesses, and I’d try to if it were my own.

Edited July 31, 2020 by Werner

[SwitchFade]

1 hour ago, skoryy said:

So the blue skittles you're chomping when fighting sappers and Carnies don't count as clickies?  Also, no damage aura or Achilles procs either.

 

And lol at 'good enough'.  Y'all are really defensive about Invuln.  Should I also bring in my WP/MA build that's also defense capped without clickies?

Heh, I don't need blues, nor do I need procs.

 

No one is Defensive, it's just facts. You're a bit defensive when someone points them out, though 😉😉

[Sovera]

There is a bit of that though, yeah, but, it's like in Path of Exile. People -can- build for maximum tanking, huge HP pool, multiple defensive layers.. and than have 50% of that not be needed (or worse, actually making fights -worse- since they now last for longer).

 

Or they will build enough defenses to survive content and then the rest of the budget is allocated towards damage.

 

 

Arguing that one Tanker powerset survives 95% of the content and the other 99% is a bit eh.

 

I'll keep on puttering along on Fire Armor. Once in a while I die and the rest of the time I'm burning holes through content. And that is fair. Just like in PoE I could build for maximum unkillability but I prefer going the 50% route.

[Werner]

4 hours ago, Bopper said:

Got transparency to work, and I randomized the placement of dots around their true position... here's what it looks like now

Now that's a sexy graph. 😉 It looks like the distribution is very smooth, so the percentiles aren't missing much, but I feel like the dots still tell a more complete story even if they seem a lot less precise. But having both together is best, I think. 👍

 

I'm tempted to build myself something like this. I probably won't, but I'm tempted. I already feel like I have a better understanding of what is likely to happen with defense and DDR against debuffs over time, even with only two examples and a very specific debuff scenario.

Edited August 1, 2020 by Werner

[Infinitum]

2 hours ago, skoryy said:

See, I agree.  Rad makes up the slightly more durable with being slightly more offensive.  Ultimately, its a matter of taste.

Well with invul, a lot depends on what attack set you go with too - either way slot the gaussian in Invincibility and you are gaining build up often - combine that with something like double stacked rage and you are dealing out some hurt at that point.

[skoryy]

47 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

Well with invul, a lot depends on what attack set you go with too - either way slot the gaussian in Invincibility and you are gaining build up often - combine that with something like double stacked rage and you are dealing out some hurt at that point.

Meltdown is straight +33% damage boost for 60 seconds, Beta Decay can take the Achilles proc, and Ground Zero does reasonable direct damage and can take both the Achilles and FotG procs in Ground Zero - on top of Ground Zero's damage.  Meltdown -> Combat Readiness -> Ground Zero -> Spinning Strike and I'm already starting to clear out the trash.

 

Come to think of it, I should look into working more procs into my build.  And use Meltdown more often.  I was getting some nice returns using it in hero tips earlier today.

 

And maybe starting thinking on a Rad/SS.  Meltdown + Rage?  HULK SMASH.

Edited August 1, 2020 by skoryy

[marcussmythe]

Rad/SS is fantastic.  I prefer to cycle Meltdown opposite Adrenal Boost for offense.  

[marcussmythe]

57 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

Well with invul, a lot depends on what attack set you go with too - either way slot the gaussian in Invincibility and you are gaining build up often - combine that with something like double stacked rage and you are dealing out some hurt at that point.

How often would you say you see Gaussians fire per minute?  I currently run it in Buildup, which means I see it about twice per minute - lined up conciously with all my biggest guns.  If its going off substantially more often in invincibility (particularly against a single opponent - swarms die too fast to count) I may need to move it.

 

Ofc, I could just grab some unslotters and go stand next to something hostile...

[Infinitum]

47 minutes ago, marcussmythe said:

How often would you say you see Gaussians fire per minute?  I currently run it in Buildup, which means I see it about twice per minute - lined up conciously with all my biggest guns.  If its going off substantially more often in invincibility (particularly against a single opponent - swarms die too fast to count) I may need to move it.

 

Ofc, I could just grab some unslotters and go stand next to something hostile...

i have never counted it single target honestly, but its really reliable in mobs.  ill log in tomorrow and test that for ya and see if i can reliable count its rate.

[Hyperstrike]

6 hours ago, Infinitum said:

Witchcraft I say, in the old days we would run jump and fly 2 miles in the snow uphill.

What about that bear you killed with a spare Iron Will inspie?

[marcussmythe]

Might be a thing where it rides in invincibility on the AOE build and on Buildup on the single target build.  
 

If we aren't careful, Bopper is going to come in and math at it.

[Werner]

If I made the right assumptions and mathed right, 8.77% chance to proc every 10 seconds for each target in range, so a 60.1% chance to proc every 10 seconds with saturated Invincibility. Waiting for teacher to check my homework.

Edited August 1, 2020 by Werner

[Bopper]

27 minutes ago, Werner said:

If I made the right assumptions and mathed right, 8.77% chance to proc every 10 seconds for each target in range, so a 60.1% chance to proc every 10 seconds with saturated Invincibility. Waiting for teacher to check my homework.

Math looks good. Not sure how easy it is to keep 10 targets within an 8 ft radius, but that would be the upper limit of performance. Probably better off having it in Buildup for the controllability of the proc, but you probably have a chance on occasional multiple procs, so that could be nice.

[Xanatos]

12 hours ago, skoryy said:

 Y'all are really defensive about Invuln.  Should I also bring in my WP/MA build that's also defense capped without clickies?

 

Tanker players are always defensive over their main's armour set. I used to play with a guy who refused to accept Ice Armour wasn't the undisputed best set.   It's weird, I've only ever seen this egotism in tankers. (An egotism which, sadly, lead to them getting a buff to aggro control at the expense of Brutes.)

 

I love my invuln. I posted its numbers earlier in the thread. It's pretty much unkillable. But I know Bio and Rad are objectively better sets due to +absorb.

 

Does "better" translate into anything practical in-game, though? I'm not sure. Tanking without dying is a binary thing. Better/worse doesn't matter if you're able to tank everything just fine.

Edited August 1, 2020 by Xanatos

[marcussmythe]

5 hours ago, Bopper said:

Math looks good. Not sure how easy it is to keep 10 targets within an 8 ft radius, but that would be the upper limit of performance. Probably better off having it in Buildup for the controllability of the proc, but you probably have a chance on occasional multiple procs, so that could be nice.

Thank you both.  Obviously the answer here is ‘change the rules, allow multiples’ :):):)

[Infinitum]

11 hours ago, Hyperstrike said:

What about that bear you killed with a spare Iron Will inspie?

That was my tank from back then just like his namesake in the Cherokee Kid starring Sinbad.

 

Iron Will and the consignment house TP killed that bear, you dont want detail.... Trust meh.

[skoryy]

10 hours ago, Bopper said:

Probably better off having it in Buildup for the controllability of the proc, but you probably have a chance on occasional multiple procs, so that could be nice.

I respec'd Trinity, put the Build Up proc in CR, added the Erad and Arma procs to GZ, and did some eyeball testing this morning.  CR -> GZ -> SS is effectively a mininuke now, its glorious.  Even the bosses get shredded.  Throw in Meltdown and it gets even better.

 

At some point I may have to try GZ -> FS with double stacked Rage, just because that'd be even more ludicrous.  I just have to find a concept I'd be happy with first.

[Gobbledigook]

21 minutes ago, skoryy said:

I respec'd Trinity, put the Build Up proc in CR, added the Erad and Arma procs to GZ, and did some eyeball testing this morning.  CR -> GZ -> SS is effectively a mininuke now, its glorious.  Even the bosses get shredded.  Throw in Meltdown and it gets even better.

 

At some point I may have to try GZ -> FS with double stacked Rage, just because that'd be even more ludicrous.  I just have to find a concept I'd be happy with first.

Footstomp>Ground Zero>Dark Obliteration>Rad Therapy>Foot Stomp all procced out works pretty well for me. Not a lot survives that really. Move on to next group and repeat.

 

Rage crash does lower dps but it does not stop the procs, so keep hitting.

Edited August 1, 2020 by Gobbledegook

[marcussmythe]

Ive thought about working Dark Oblit in - but shaking loose the slots and powers for snither attack is go na be tough.  I run the other three you do - maybe be fast enough (for me)

[Glowman]

@marcussmythemind sharing your rad/ss build?

[marcussmythe]

Its not my work - its a slight tweak of someone elses.  Let me check with them?

[Glowman]

Of course.