Fix dark regen and radiation therapy in lieu of the aoe panacea proc nerf!

[Apparition]

  On 7/27/2020 at 10:13 PM, Monos King said:

I'm genuinely curious as to why. Are procs considered OP?

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On certain ATs, yes.  I believe the last thing mentioned being considered was to tie damage procs’ damage to the AT scalar.

Edited July 27, 2020 by Apparition

[WindDemon21]

They also come at heavy opportunity costs for both power stats and set bonuses often times.

 

Procs are definitely not OP.

[Darkneblade]

And best to remember controller and other low damage AT's only way to function with damage procs. You can of course don't want to depend on procs but you are severely handicapping yourself. (Like me I only use 1 damage procs on control powers. For preparing against proc nerf)

[Monos King]

  On 7/27/2020 at 10:57 PM, Darkneblade said:

And best to remember controller and other low damage AT's only way to function with damage procs.

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See, that one can't be true. That feels like more of a projection of the damage centric meta, because trollers never needed to do a lot of damage and don't (themselves), and if that is the case it would mean all of the low dmg ATs are just badly designed, plain and simple. 

 

However, I don't mind that procs give the opportunity to rise to much higher damage, if that's something the player is interested in, in exchange for losing out on some duration and accuracy enhancements. I'd like to know if the fact that procs let controllers and other ATs do a lot more damage is why they might be considered OP.

Edited July 27, 2020 by Monos King

[Apparition]

Damage procs are OP because they let Tankers and Defenders invalidate the Brutes and Corruptors ATs (respectively), with the exceptions of a few edge cases like Kinetics.  Tankers and Defenders have always had higher survivability than Brutes and Corruptors; Defenders have always had better buffs and debuffs than Corruptors; but damage procs also let them do more damage than Brutes and Corruptors.

[skoryy]

  On 7/27/2020 at 11:48 PM, Apparition said:

Damage procs are OP because they let Tankers and Defenders invalidate the Brutes and Corruptors ATs (respectively), with the exceptions of a few edge cases like Kinetics.  Tankers and Defenders have always had higher survivability than Brutes and Corruptors; Defenders have always had better buffs and debuffs than Corruptors; but damage procs also let them do more damage than Brutes and Corruptors.

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Procs help brutes and corruptors too, though.  Especially corruptors since the proc's likely gonna fire more often than scourge.

 

EDIT: If your damage scalar is on the low end, a damage enhancement often won't do as much for you as a damage proc would.  You get more bang for your buck, sometimes literally.

Edited July 28, 2020 by skoryy

[Apparition]

  On 7/28/2020 at 12:21 AM, skoryy said:

Procs help brutes and corruptors too, though.  Especially corruptors since the proc's likely gonna fire more often than scourge.

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Not without hurting their defense and/or resistance, unlike Tankers and Defenders.  Tankers and Defenders' innate higher survival lets them skimp on set bonuses for defense and/or resistance that Brutes and Corruptors need, and instead lets them load up on damage procs.

 

There's a reason why you started seeing a lot more Defenders on Homecoming than Corruptors after word of damage procs got out last summer, when it started out more even, (with the exception of all of the Empathy Defenders from new players that only knew WoW and/or WoW-likes).

Edited July 28, 2020 by Apparition

[skoryy]

  On 7/28/2020 at 12:25 AM, Apparition said:

Not without hurting their defense and/or resistance, unlike Tankers and Defenders.

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You still need some level of IOs to get there, and procs don't make up all the difference.  To borrow what Sir Myshkin said, the best proc monster he made was a middling scrapper build.  I'm working on an offender TA/A and a proc-heavy Dark/Dark 'troller, and both of them aren't nearly looking as great for damage as my stalker and blasters - even with the procs.

[Nyghtmaire]

  On 7/28/2020 at 12:28 AM, skoryy said:

You still need some level of IOs to get there, and procs don't make up all the difference.  To borrow what Sir Myshkin said, the best proc monster he made was a middling scrapper build.  I'm working on an offender TA/A and a proc-heavy Dark/Dark 'troller, and both of them aren't nearly looking as great for damage as my stalker and blasters - even with the procs.

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And procs can turn a barely no-damage, team-only combination into something playable at a middling difficulty solo. My procc’d Earth/Sonic Controller can now keep pace with an unprocc’d defender, at 0/3 nonetheless!

[Puma]

  On 7/27/2020 at 10:21 PM, macskull said:

Powerhouse has said on a few occasions that he wants to revisit procs in one way or another. Honestly I'd rather they just go back to the old flat-rate system or be left alone but that's me.

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The LAST thing this game needs to keep people playing is to have nerfs that suddenly make people feel LESS powerful.  

Edited July 30, 2020 by Puma

[Puma]

  On 7/27/2020 at 11:48 PM, Apparition said:

Damage procs are OP because they let Tankers and Defenders invalidate the Brutes and Corruptors ATs (respectively), with the exceptions of a few edge cases like Kinetics.  Tankers and Defenders have always had higher survivability than Brutes and Corruptors; Defenders have always had better buffs and debuffs than Corruptors; but damage procs also let them do more damage than Brutes and Corruptors.

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This is the most incorrect thing Ive seen posted on this board in days. 


Yes...a defender or tanker can do more damage than they would otherwise with a proc.  But they still will not out-damage a corrupter or brute of the same combo, and they will have much less direct control over when that "added damage" hits.

Of course, you can ALSO slot the SAME procs into the brute/Corr, which makes this argument make even less sense.


Under your logic we  should get rid of all enhancements because brute with full Single Origin enhancements slotted is more survivable than a tank with no enhancements. 

Edited July 28, 2020 by Puma

[Bopper]

  On 7/28/2020 at 8:54 PM, Puma said:

I dont mean this to be disrepectful, but from what Im seeing coming down the pipeline with nerfs, Powerhouse's vision of game balance on a game that is over a decade old may very well be the end of the game.


The LAST thing this game needs to keep people playing is to have nerfs that suddenly make people feel LESS powerful.  

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What have you seen that makes you believe that? In the past year we've seen buffs to Dominator Assaults, standardization of quick-snipes, and tanker buffs. So far, the only nerfs have been rumors, not actuality. Bug fixes that are "nerfs" sure, but those powers were bugs not buffs.

Edited July 28, 2020 by Bopper

[Puma]

  On 7/28/2020 at 12:25 AM, Apparition said:

 

Not without hurting their defense and/or resistance, unlike Tankers and Defenders.  Tankers and Defenders' innate higher survival lets them skimp on set bonuses for defense and/or resistance that Brutes and Corruptors need, and instead lets them load up on damage procs.

 

There's a reason why you started seeing a lot more Defenders on Homecoming than Corruptors after word of damage procs got out last summer, when it started out more even, (with the exception of all of the Empathy Defenders from new players that only knew WoW and/or WoW-likes).

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This is because of the defender changes, not procs.  Defenders were changed to make them MUCH more solo friendly when solo, doing more damage.  This made them suddenly a viable option for someone like me who likes to team and solo. Before...they simply couldnt solo well.  Now...they can.

This is just like the tanker changes, making THEM more solo friendly as well.  

[Apparition]

  On 7/28/2020 at 9:00 PM, Puma said:

This is because of the defender changes, not procs.  Defenders were changed to make them MUCH more solo friendly when solo, doing more damage.  This made them suddenly a viable option for someone like me who likes to team and solo. Before...they simply couldnt solo well.  Now...they can.

This is just like the tanker changes, making THEM more solo friendly as well.  

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Those Defender changes (specifically ATOs and the buff to Vigilance while soloing), were made before sunset.  They were in the game when Homecoming launched.  So no, that does not explain it.

[Troo]

eek!!

 

Feel free to PM with the concerns.

[Jitsurei]

  On 7/28/2020 at 8:54 PM, Puma said:

I dont mean this to be disrepectful, but from what Im seeing coming down the pipeline with nerfs, Powerhouse's vision of game balance on a game that is over a decade old may very well be the end of the game.


The LAST thing this game needs to keep people playing is to have nerfs that suddenly make people feel LESS powerful.  

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Not feeling powerful isn’t even close to being an issue in CoH. Also I very much doubt most people are making defenders to play solo, it’s a highly team oriented AT. Most, if not all, of the sets can never be used to their full potential without a team.  

[Puma]

  On 7/28/2020 at 9:08 PM, Apparition said:

 
Those Defender changes (specifically ATOs and the buff to Vigilance while soloing), were made before sunset.  They were in the game when Homecoming launched.  So no, that does not explain it.

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It absolutely does explain it. As more toons are made post-change, you'll see them becoming more balanced. 

 

By the way, procs were around before sunset as well.  

[Puma]

  On 7/28/2020 at 9:27 PM, Jitsurei said:

Not feeling powerful isn’t even close to being an issue in CoH. Also I very much doubt most people are making defenders to play solo, it’s a highly team oriented AT. Most, if not all, of the sets can never be used to their full potential without a team.  

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I don't disagree, but want to remind you that NOT being able to solo with a toon effectively can HINDER a lot of players who would, otherwise, make a team oriented toon.  

There is a not-insignificant part of the player base that doesn't want to be locked in to teaming all of the time, even if they'd like to team some of the time. 

I'm one of them.  Before the defender changes I had, I think, 2 defenders.  Now?  I roll them more often than corrupters. 

Edited July 28, 2020 by Puma

[Apparition]

  On 7/28/2020 at 10:56 PM, Puma said:

It absolutely does explain it. As more toons are made post-change, you'll see them becoming more balanced. 

 

By the way, procs were around before sunset as well.  

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Damage procs were around before sunset, yes.  But they work nearly completely differently now than they did before Issue 24.  And my point is that they are not balanced now.  They *were* balanced when Homecoming first started, but around late last summer/early autumn, as word of the changes to damage procs started spreading, it became entirely lopsided.

[Puma]

  On 7/28/2020 at 11:02 PM, Apparition said:

 

Damage procs were around before sunset, yes.  But they work nearly completely differently now than they did before Issue 24.  And my point is that they are not balanced now.  They *were* balanced when Homecoming first started, but around late last summer/early autumn, as word of the changes to damage procs started spreading, it became entirely lopsided.

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The change to procs becoming PPM was made before shutdown as well.  


Maybe you can show me your data so I can try and understand why you're seeing a pattern that I entirely don't see. 


For the record, as I stated, -I- roll almost exclusively defenders now, when I used to run almost exclusively corrupters, because now I can solo with them and STILL be able to contribute to a team with strong buffs/debuffs, where before, I couldn't.  It has nothing to do with procs. 

Because again, if you're rolling a defender to do more damage because you can use procs, you're kinda illogical, since you can do even MORE damage with a Corrupter using those same procs. And with the defender changes, you don't NEED procs to do decent damage on a defender when solo...and when on a team, procs won't contribute enough to make a dent anyway, given how much more damage everyone else is dishing out. 
 

Edited July 28, 2020 by Puma

[Apparition]

  On 7/28/2020 at 11:06 PM, Puma said:

The change to procs becoming PPM was made at the same (or near) the same time as the defender damage boosts.  


Maybe you can show me your data so I can try and understand why you're seeing a pattern that I entirely don't see. 


For the record, as I stated, -I- roll almost exclusively defenders now, when I used to run almost exclusively corrupters, because now I can solo with them and STILL be able to contribute to a team with strong buffs/debuffs, where before, I couldn't. 
 

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You're just making my argument for me.  And no, the Defender damage boost was in Issue 17, more than two years before Issue 24 went into beta.

Edited July 28, 2020 by Apparition

[Vanden]

  On 7/28/2020 at 11:06 PM, Puma said:

The change to procs becoming PPM was made before shutdown as well.  

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It wasn't though, it was still in beta at shutdown and wasn't necessarily what the final result would have been if development had continued.

[Puma]

  On 7/28/2020 at 11:10 PM, Apparition said:

 

You're just making my argument for me.  And no, the Defender damage boost was in Issue 17, more than two years before Issue 24 went into beta.

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Im confused because your argument was that people are playing defenders too much now because procs are too powerful. And I guess you have data to prove that, but haven't shown it yet. 

 

And I just showed you that at least SOME of the people playing more defenders are doing so now because they are finally able to be soloable. 

[macskull]

  On 7/28/2020 at 11:12 PM, Vanden said:

It wasn't though, it was still in beta at shutdown and wasn't necessarily what the final result would have been if development had continued.

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FWIW the store-bought enhancements (i.e. the ones you had to pay actual money for) were using the PPM system - albeit slightly different - as early as Issue 21, over a year before the game shut down.

Edited July 29, 2020 by macskull

[Crater Kate]

  On 7/28/2020 at 8:54 PM, Puma said:

I dont mean this to be disrepectful, but from what Im seeing coming down the pipeline with nerfs, Powerhouse's vision of game balance on a game that is over a decade old may very well be the end of the game.

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Funny, I would have thought the literal shutting down of the game was the end of the game...